Toyota Punk

As far as the complaints about the 7th injector only being for dual-cat 3.4's, I imagine that since TRD knows there is a difference, they are not going to waste money on producing two different sets before they know how well the public is going to react to it. This is especially true since what they seem to be selling is crap, and I'm sure they know it. If the demand is there, they will no doubt come out with a kit for the single-cat trucks.

MTL_4runner

It is a basic principle in combution engines that the hotter they run, the more efficient they are. You run into limits because metal parts in the engine don't like heat and so we don't really run as efficiently as it would theoretically be possible. By running a cooler thermostat, it is completely a TRD bandaid for tuning problems. Not to say the proper tuning is easy by any means but if the engine does not have any leanout problems then it is totally unnecessary. The problem usually comes with all the mods people do along with a supercharger to allow much greater air flow. When you do that you are pushing the stock components to their limits. That is why all the folks are needing fuel mods to bring the fuel delivery back into check with air delivery and staying away from the lean condition we all dread.

So yes, running the cooler thermostat will also certainly affect your gas mileage in a negative manner.

ravencr

So is it safe to say that if I've got all the fuel mods installed, I don't need, nor is it recommended, that I run the TRD thermo? If so, I can't wait to get rid of it.

Chris

rwmorrisonjr

That's what it sounds like to me. Based on what I've seen on the two threads concerning this item, I'm sticking with the stock thermostat.

ravencr

Anybody else want to confirm that the stock thermostat is the only way to go for maximum fuel efficiency as long as the fuel mods have been done?

Chris

its2slo

first of all, i contributed to this forum so i feel i have a right to "waste" bandwith. or should i say voice my opinion.
ive had my impala (a 96 bbb) for four years and aside fom the machining ive done all the work myself including the assymbley of my 383 stroker. ive learned a great deal from those who know these cars. i have all the boltons, 3.73's, etc., etc. i have a brian herter pcm 4 less obd1 with lt4 knock sensor, my car is programmed to run the 160 thermo. it flat cooks.

now, what your buddy is missing, since the lt1 uses reverse cooling the actual temp of the coolant in the block with the 180 is 200 and with the 160 is 180. this has been proven by numerous owners with a digital scanner, simply measuring the actual temp of the coolant.

next up is all the magazines and owners that have torn these motors down and found absolutely no adverse affects of running the 160 thermo.

and finally it has been dyno proven time and time again to make more power by advancing timing.(wich my cooler t stat and lt4 knock sensor, along with computer programming allow me to do.)

again, i have learned so much from naisso, impalassclub.com, socalss, and doing the complete build up on my car. there is no respected member of any of the clubs i listed that will agree with you, because you are wrong. some very well respected members will tell you it is a waste of money if you are running iron heads or not blown. this is a classic noob debate, i dont see how you can call me a noob, but thanks for dropping some knowledge on me.

if you want good advice about your impala go to impalassclub.com, if you want to continue this debate i urge you to ask them about the thermostat. they will be glad to drop some knowledge on you.

ManyMods

Hey Jake...
I am not, and was not, flaming you. I know all about Brian's PCM tuning as I also know about the actual temps produced in the reverse flow cooling system, as does the author of the comments I posted previously. I have been in the Impala clubs (NAISSO, ISSCA, IGBA, etc.) practically since the original 6-pack and .... I do not have an Impala; I have what was the first LT4 wagon and was the second B-body wagon (John Spear had the first and I think I am even before Mike Speasl) ever converted.

Anyway, the subject is our 4Runners and since the matter of whether to use a 160 or 180 thermo has been debated forever; that is what I meant about bandwidth. No disrespect to you or anyone is intended, so let us move on if that is all right with you. l will check your profile to see where you are located. I am in New England and belong to CTTri-9.

MTL_4runner

Remember guys, power and fuel mileage are very different goals. Also keep in mind a more efficient engine does not necessarily make more power, but it does make the most of every drop of fuel it uses. This is the most common mistake people make (confusing power and efficiency).

From what I read, seems like the impalla guys talk about power without regard to mileage. Engine efficeincy does depend on engine temp (the hotter the burn the more efficeint it is) More power is made with a cooler engine but you will definately pay for it in mileage. The cooler thermostat will drop the engine temp and thus also lower the combustion temps as well. So you may be getting more fuel in there to burn, but you will also be burning less efficiently.

I bought a toyota for looks, dependability and mileage (so I will not be using the TRD thermostat). Just depends on what your goal is for your rig. (Power at all cost or efficiency)

ManyMods

MTL -
I really enjoy your writing and although I have never had the patience or the technical intellect to go into depth the way my techy friends do, I seem to have acquired some inate sense of what works and what does not. I have been a test mule for many experiments that the Impala techy guys like Scott Mueller were desktop noodling about because I guess I had more money than brains ... I have spent a fortune being impulsive and eager to try the latest thing --- over $70K on my Chevy wagon, but I have come to the point where I am too tired and disinterested to continue persuing the quest for bigger and better with the B-bodies. Guys like Jake who are building 383's, 355's 396's and dropping LS1's with T56 6-speeds into their rides have far surpassed me. 14 second ETs used to be good, but now there is a heavy membership in the 11-second club, which for a 4400-4600 pound car is pretty darn good. The guys that I hang with who have been in it since day one are very quiet and VERY intelligent. I have come to respect their advice. I was getting about 27mpg at one time with the tuning my friend did for me. I am convinced that performance certainly depends upon the parts, but it is all about the tuning. I have had guys like Ed Wright (drove all the way to Tulsa) and Shalin Patel do my tuning and they are nothing compared to the guy who does it now.

I noticed you are using code reader software for your Palm and you think it is the best. I was going to look into Autotap for my 4Runner since it is very popular with the OBD-II Chevy guys but I have not done anything yet. I want something that is relatively simple to use since I am not a computer wiz. Would you mind saying more about your experience with the Palm?

Getting back to the issue of thermostats and our 4Runners; I have no preignition whatsoever and get 19mpg on a regular basis around town. My acceleration seems smooth and flawless and in general the truck runs really well. I, like so many of us, will always jump at the notion of adding more power but I have to keep a clear picture of why I bought my turck--- looks and RELIABILITY. Toyota's TRD division really alarms me as I perceive their lack of reponsibility and integrity with the consumer. I do not trust their word at all. However, has not the 7th injector been in used successfully on the V8 Tundras for quite some time with good success? I assume that the TRD ECU is going to have a middle of the road tuning but, according to the instruction book, it implies that they are richening the fuel mapping there by allowing for more intake air flow and allowing some of us to open up the intake and exhaust without doing any harm to the engine. Everyone I spoke to before I bought my SC said they thought it was impossible that a blower would be expected to bolt on with out ANY tuning. They were right and the 7th injector proves that notion to me. I know that even when I uncap the deckplate in my airbox, performance suffers and that means to me that I am at the limits of the ECU fuel perameters to richen the air/fuel mix and I would then be running on the lean side, which is probably already the case. I love the fact that at the bottom of the TRD installation manual it says "REV: A - TRD 09/12/03". Somehow I would feel more comfortable buying this kit when the installation manual says, REV: M !!!!!!

MTL_4runner

Peter, you are quite correct.

The 7th injector is essentially yet another bandaid by TRD (it is sad they don't just come out and say so). The extra injector does not richen the curve but simply compensates for the inability of the stock injectors to keep up with the amount of air being delivered. I do think it is just marginally better than replacing the thermostat because the engine temp stays at the optimal temperature for efficiency of combustion (not the theoretical optimum of course). In my opinion is that the best way to compensate is pretty much to follow the design work that Gadget and several other guys have done here on the board. This would include upgrading all 6 injectors, adding a larger fuel pump, a piggyback control unit and perhaps modding the ECU. This is what I would consider the best way to ensure the system is able to reach its full potential without any damage to engine components. If you simply look at the basic systems of the engine and how they work, it will become pretty obvious what are bandaids and what aren't.

Any chance we can arrange a trade?

I have a few threads on this already....PM me if you want to chat some more on that.

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...hlight=auterra
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...hlight=auterra

pfdaxe

Here's my .02:

I run the TRD stat and to tell you the truth: I DIDN'T notice any differance with fuel economy or power versus the stock. So, if your thinking about installing the TRD stat. Save your money. In the past though, a lower temp t-stat has always helped. I use to own a '69 Firebird with a completely built motor with 2 four barrels, built tranny and 456 posi rear etc. I ran a cooler t-stat and twin electric fans and the biggest rad I could fit. But...that wasn't a Toyota either I just don't think the cooler t-stat in this application is that big of a deal.

Paul

MTL_4runner

I doubt anyone will notice a huge difference in either (likely just enough to get rid of pinging and might lower gas mileage by 0.5 to maybe as much as 2 MPG at most) but I would bet you would see it even less than others because you are in AZ.

Are temps below the 100s yet down there?
I miss the feeling of living in an oven.

ManyMods

I just spoke with the engineer at Magnuson that I have been communicating with throughout my experience with the SC. I asked him what he thought about the 7th Injector kit for the 3.4. He told me that it just so happens that one of the guys just got the kit and they are going to install it shortly. He told me to call him back in a few weeks (I told him I would call back in 30 days) and he would be able to give me some hard numbers since they are going to test it thoroughly. I think this is great since I (we) do not trust what TRD says. I will keep you all posted and I will also let you know when I receive that .pdf file .... hopefully today.

Dr. Zhivago

I think it's because you no longer have the stock Clutch Fan. The FLX-210 reduces cooling system efficiency, unless you have it running ALL the time, which I'm sure you don't. Coupled with the Supercharger's high intake air charge temperatures, and the tendency for the engine to run a bit lean, your engine runs a bit warmer than a NA version.

The cooling system efficiency on these trucks was designed around the clutch fan being there moving air constantly. Take away the constant cooling provided by the Stock Clutch Fan and you lose any advantaged gained by having the TRD thermo installed.

My .02
G

nrgetic99

My 99 4runner Sport "highlander" had a line item on the window sticker that had "CA Emissions" as an extra. That truck had dual cats and a different ECU.

I could not use an ESC-1 on my truck as the Dual CAT CA emmisions ECU could NOT be in open loop mode.

My truck was purchased in VA so be careful, it may well only apply to CA emmisions vehicles with dual cats, dual oxygen sensors and the later ECU.

David

nrgetic99

Oh yeah,

I hope thats a typo for the V8 Tundra's cos the 7th injector would reduce fuel delivery

I am pretty sure they mean a 9th injector :pat:

David

ManyMods

David, Yeah, it was a typo; it was way past my bedtime and probably the entire post was a typo. I am glad you knew what I was trying to say.

WATRD

So, I am sitting here reading the installation manual for the kit and it actually makes sense

On top of that, I am in contact with three folks have had the kit installed over the past couple of days and to a man, they LOVE it. All are saying the charger pulls harder and pinging is gone. Two of them are doing dyno runs the first part of next week to see if they confirm the seat of the pants horsepower gain. None of them seem to think that there is anything "bandaid" like about the kit. So far, it just works.

Mine will be in my hands tomorrow and the plan is to install it over the weekend.

ravencr

I'm sorry but I can't beleive people are buying this kit from TRD. What a waste of money, especially when you can buy 305cc Supra injectors, piggyback, and fuel pump for less than half the cost.

Who has an electronic version of this kit, because I'd love to review the installation procedure manual? Anybody have it in electronic format they can send me: chrisrademacher@fastmail.fm?

Chris

WATRD

I am inclined to disagree with your point of view, that's why I bought it. After watching TTORA folks experiment with various "solutions", including the ones you mention, over the past two years, it is obvious that some things help, some don't, but no one has a universal, plug and play solution. It has been fun to watch people try things, then others jump on the bandwagon, then some discover a downside and some abandon the "fix" for the next big thing... Injectors, 160* TStats, AFC/SFC, FMU, colder plugs, you name it. All of them have fans, all of them have problems.

I am going to give the kit a shot. If I don't like it, I can always pull it back out. If it works as well as the preliminary reports are indicating, I think I will be glad I did.

But, with that said, I have the electronic version of the manual. It's 3.4mb. Will your mail server accept it if I send it?