Tech Guru? Look here now!
01-28-2004, 06:37 PM
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Tech Guru? Look here now!
What the hell is this? Looks like a DIY turbo on a 3.0 Liter, take a look at this guys site:
main site
More specifically these pictures:
The turbo
Fit Check
Engine Bay
What am I seeing here?
-Keith
main site
More specifically these pictures:
The turbo
Fit Check
Engine Bay
What am I seeing here?
-Keith
01-28-2004, 06:56 PM
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I'm not smooth enough to figure out things on my own. Would anyone care to give me a breif idea of what I'm seeing? Is that all fabricated from just off the shelf stuff. would there be anything else involved other than the obvious rerouting the intake and sticking in the turbo? I see he's rigged up some guages, that's the part I don't have a clue about. Anyone got time to explain it to me really quick?
I'll eventually figure it out i guess, but it'd be alot easier if someone can get me started with some basic info
-Keith
This post shows just how ignorant I am when it comes to anything much more than standard matinence issues All I know is that this guy has a turbo'd 4Runner and my 3.0 is slow as hell.
I'll eventually figure it out i guess, but it'd be alot easier if someone can get me started with some basic info
-Keith
This post shows just how ignorant I am when it comes to anything much more than standard matinence issues All I know is that this guy has a turbo'd 4Runner and my 3.0 is slow as hell.
Last edited by breakerfalls; 01-28-2004 at 07:10 PM.
01-29-2004, 06:42 AM
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It's been done before. Do a search over at pirate4x4. Definitely not easy, as you have to have very good knowledge of how a turbo works. Also, you have to fabricate a new exhaust manifold to fit the turbo on. But, it is very cool. I'd only do it if I had DOA's head studs in place first.
01-29-2004, 11:00 AM
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Nice install.
Doing this yourself would be hella difficult - and you'd be out of a vehicle for a few days at least, probably closer to a week.
Hmmm, as far as what you're looking at, I'm going to first briefly describe how a turbo works, and then point out the various components in the pictures.
Most know that a turbocharger and a supercharger compress the intake air. This gives similar results to having a bigger engine. For example, if we have a 3.0 L engine, and we are able to compress the air going in to 1 ATM, instead of having 3.0 L of air inside the cylinders, we have 6.0 L of air.
A supercharger compresses this air by means of a pulley driven by the engine. Kinda like paying peter to pay paul, because the pulley robs some of the power that the engine is making. The more power the engine makes, the more power the pulley steals. However, it is a beneficial proposition as the charger does make much more power than it takes. The primary benefit is that as long as the engine is turning, the supercharger can apply boost instantly.
A turbocharger also compresses the air, but it does so by using the exhaust gases coming from the engine. Basically, the 'hot' side of the turbo has an inlet coming from the exhaust manifold and and outlet that leads down to the catalytic converter and eventually the tailpipe. There is a fan inside that is spun by the exhaust gases. This fan is coupled to a fan on the 'cold side' which has an inlet coming from the air intake (MAF/MAS sensor) and an outlet that leads (most of the time) to an intercooler and then the intake manifold. This is more efficient than a supercharger, as the gases that spin the turbo are not being used for anything else - they are waste gases.
As your engine revs higher and higher, the exhaust gases spin the turbo faster and faster, making more boost and more power (this is turbo lag - when the engine isn't revving high, the amount of boost that is made is relatively low). This can cause problems if the fuel system cannot keep up, because the fuel to air ratio goes down (normally it should be about 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of gas - if there too more air, the fuel system needs to inject more gas otherwise you have a lean condition. A lean condition is bad because a fuel-air mixture that is more air than fuel is much more flammable, and can burn in the combustion chamber before the spark plug ignites (ie while the piston is still moving up). This is VERY BAD, and is called detonation.
To prevent the turbo from spinning all the time and causing possible detontation problems, they are equipped with a wastegate. A wastegate is simply a valve that is on the hot side of the turbo that will open when the pressure reaches a certian level. When the wastegate opens, the exhaust gases bypass the turbo blades and do not spin anything, thus reducing the boost.
When you let off of the gas pedal, the throttle plate closes (near the intake manifold). Since the turbo is in the process of spinning and pressurizing the air, when the throttle plate closes the air has no place to go. Back pressure will then go out through the intake side of the turbo, damaging the blades. To prevent this, the turbo has a blow-off valve. The blow-off valve opens when the throttle plate closes, and they normally route the pressure back through the inlet of the turbo, keeping the blades spinning (enhancing throttle response). Some people just route the blow-off valve to the atmosphere which is what gives some turbo cars that PPPFFFFHHHHTTTTT sound when they shift gears.
Also in between the inlet side of the turbo and the intake manifold is (usually) an intercooler. The intercooler is basically a radiator for your intake air. As air is compressed (as it is after it goes through the turbo) it heats up. This heated air is not as dense as cooler air. So the air goes through the intercooler where it is cooled (just like your radiator cools your engine coolant) prior to going into the intake manifold. The cooler air is more dense, and as such, gives you more air molecules in the same amount of space.
So, our air flows like this - through the air filter through the MAF or MAS sensor, into the turbo, where the spinning blades compress and heat the air. The air is then routed through an intercooler, where it is cooled, and then into the intake manifold. Our cooler, denser, compressed air makes the engine perform like a larger engine (as long as the fuel system can inject enough fuel), combustion happens, the exhaust gas goes through the exhaust manifold into the turbo, down to the catalytic converter, through the muffler, and out the tail pipe.
As our speed increases, the turbo makes more and more boost, getting more and more air into the combustion chambers. As the boost gets too high, the wastegate opens, and the exhaust gas bypasses the turbine blades.
The driver lets of the gas to shift, and the throttle plate closes. As our RPMs drop, the turbo isn't spun as much, and the greater pressure in our intake forces open the Blow-off Valve. The BOV routes the air into the inlet of the turbo, where it keeps the blades spinning.
So, our basic parts are the turbo, the intercooler, the blow-off valve, and the wastegate. We also need a boost gauge so we can make sure that our turbo isn't making too much boost, and an air-fuel gauge to we can make sure that our fuel system is keeping up with the demands of the turbo.
As far as doing this off the shelf, you can probably forget about it. While nothing in any of those pictures looks fabbed from scratch, things did have to be modified. The exhaust manifold and the downpipe (downpipe goes from the turbo to the catalytic converter) had to be modifed in length and probably cut and/or drilled and welded to make the mounting points for the turbo. The intake stuff can all be done with regular hose (or even pvc pipe) as it isn't very hot, but everything in the exhaust has to be cast to withstand temps in excess of 1500 degrees. There was also a lot of creativity in his mounting points - and everything probably had to be customized to be mounted. The guy would benefit from an EGT gauge (measures the temperature of the exhaust gas) from a safety standpoint - since the turbo wasn't designed to be there from the factory I'd definitely put one in.
The Toy install is a lot better than his Miata install. That's a terrible location for an air filter.
~Bill
Doing this yourself would be hella difficult - and you'd be out of a vehicle for a few days at least, probably closer to a week.
Hmmm, as far as what you're looking at, I'm going to first briefly describe how a turbo works, and then point out the various components in the pictures.
Most know that a turbocharger and a supercharger compress the intake air. This gives similar results to having a bigger engine. For example, if we have a 3.0 L engine, and we are able to compress the air going in to 1 ATM, instead of having 3.0 L of air inside the cylinders, we have 6.0 L of air.
A supercharger compresses this air by means of a pulley driven by the engine. Kinda like paying peter to pay paul, because the pulley robs some of the power that the engine is making. The more power the engine makes, the more power the pulley steals. However, it is a beneficial proposition as the charger does make much more power than it takes. The primary benefit is that as long as the engine is turning, the supercharger can apply boost instantly.
A turbocharger also compresses the air, but it does so by using the exhaust gases coming from the engine. Basically, the 'hot' side of the turbo has an inlet coming from the exhaust manifold and and outlet that leads down to the catalytic converter and eventually the tailpipe. There is a fan inside that is spun by the exhaust gases. This fan is coupled to a fan on the 'cold side' which has an inlet coming from the air intake (MAF/MAS sensor) and an outlet that leads (most of the time) to an intercooler and then the intake manifold. This is more efficient than a supercharger, as the gases that spin the turbo are not being used for anything else - they are waste gases.
As your engine revs higher and higher, the exhaust gases spin the turbo faster and faster, making more boost and more power (this is turbo lag - when the engine isn't revving high, the amount of boost that is made is relatively low). This can cause problems if the fuel system cannot keep up, because the fuel to air ratio goes down (normally it should be about 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of gas - if there too more air, the fuel system needs to inject more gas otherwise you have a lean condition. A lean condition is bad because a fuel-air mixture that is more air than fuel is much more flammable, and can burn in the combustion chamber before the spark plug ignites (ie while the piston is still moving up). This is VERY BAD, and is called detonation.
To prevent the turbo from spinning all the time and causing possible detontation problems, they are equipped with a wastegate. A wastegate is simply a valve that is on the hot side of the turbo that will open when the pressure reaches a certian level. When the wastegate opens, the exhaust gases bypass the turbo blades and do not spin anything, thus reducing the boost.
When you let off of the gas pedal, the throttle plate closes (near the intake manifold). Since the turbo is in the process of spinning and pressurizing the air, when the throttle plate closes the air has no place to go. Back pressure will then go out through the intake side of the turbo, damaging the blades. To prevent this, the turbo has a blow-off valve. The blow-off valve opens when the throttle plate closes, and they normally route the pressure back through the inlet of the turbo, keeping the blades spinning (enhancing throttle response). Some people just route the blow-off valve to the atmosphere which is what gives some turbo cars that PPPFFFFHHHHTTTTT sound when they shift gears.
Also in between the inlet side of the turbo and the intake manifold is (usually) an intercooler. The intercooler is basically a radiator for your intake air. As air is compressed (as it is after it goes through the turbo) it heats up. This heated air is not as dense as cooler air. So the air goes through the intercooler where it is cooled (just like your radiator cools your engine coolant) prior to going into the intake manifold. The cooler air is more dense, and as such, gives you more air molecules in the same amount of space.
So, our air flows like this - through the air filter through the MAF or MAS sensor, into the turbo, where the spinning blades compress and heat the air. The air is then routed through an intercooler, where it is cooled, and then into the intake manifold. Our cooler, denser, compressed air makes the engine perform like a larger engine (as long as the fuel system can inject enough fuel), combustion happens, the exhaust gas goes through the exhaust manifold into the turbo, down to the catalytic converter, through the muffler, and out the tail pipe.
As our speed increases, the turbo makes more and more boost, getting more and more air into the combustion chambers. As the boost gets too high, the wastegate opens, and the exhaust gas bypasses the turbine blades.
The driver lets of the gas to shift, and the throttle plate closes. As our RPMs drop, the turbo isn't spun as much, and the greater pressure in our intake forces open the Blow-off Valve. The BOV routes the air into the inlet of the turbo, where it keeps the blades spinning.
So, our basic parts are the turbo, the intercooler, the blow-off valve, and the wastegate. We also need a boost gauge so we can make sure that our turbo isn't making too much boost, and an air-fuel gauge to we can make sure that our fuel system is keeping up with the demands of the turbo.
As far as doing this off the shelf, you can probably forget about it. While nothing in any of those pictures looks fabbed from scratch, things did have to be modified. The exhaust manifold and the downpipe (downpipe goes from the turbo to the catalytic converter) had to be modifed in length and probably cut and/or drilled and welded to make the mounting points for the turbo. The intake stuff can all be done with regular hose (or even pvc pipe) as it isn't very hot, but everything in the exhaust has to be cast to withstand temps in excess of 1500 degrees. There was also a lot of creativity in his mounting points - and everything probably had to be customized to be mounted. The guy would benefit from an EGT gauge (measures the temperature of the exhaust gas) from a safety standpoint - since the turbo wasn't designed to be there from the factory I'd definitely put one in.
The Toy install is a lot better than his Miata install. That's a terrible location for an air filter.
~Bill
01-29-2004, 11:14 AM
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Re: Tech Guru? Look here now!
As far as what you're seeing, in this picture:
Engine Bay
Follow from the air filter - the metal piece that the filter is mounted on is the MAF/MAS sensor - if you look to the left of it (right behind the aluminum plate) there's the blow-off valve. The small hose on the top of that senses the increasing pressure in the intake when the throttle is closed, and opens the valve. The larger hose coming from the right side of the BOV is where the air re-enters the intake to help keep the turbo spinning. The long black hose/tube (it may even be a pipe) that starts from the right side of the air filter and goes up and over everything is the intake from the intercooler to the intake manifold. The intercooler is mounted below the bumper.
In this picture:
Fit Check
The silver part of the turbo is the intake or "cold" side - the big inlet that you can see is where the air comes into the turbo prior to being pressurized. The outlet is the silver part that is pointing to the left (it's pointing at the alternator). It looks like he plugged the boost gauge into the outlet of the turbo (the little fitting there that comes to a tee-joint). Not the worst place to put it, as it's measuring the boost as soon as it is coming off the turbo. Well, heck - even before it comes off the turbo! From there the air is routed to the intercooler that is behind the bumper. You can also see that he's got a heat shiled (the gray thing above the alternator - you can also see that in the previous picture). Heat shields are quite necessary when dealing with turbos - there were many nights after 'spirited' driving that I could pop my hood and see the turbo glowing cherry red.
Back to the first picture - there's something that looks similar to the BOV in the upper middle section of the picture (between the heatshield, the BOV hose, and the intercooler pipe) - that is the wastegate actuator (senses the pressure to open up the wastegate valve to keep boost down.
Any more questions??
I can write a novel!
~Bill
Engine Bay
Follow from the air filter - the metal piece that the filter is mounted on is the MAF/MAS sensor - if you look to the left of it (right behind the aluminum plate) there's the blow-off valve. The small hose on the top of that senses the increasing pressure in the intake when the throttle is closed, and opens the valve. The larger hose coming from the right side of the BOV is where the air re-enters the intake to help keep the turbo spinning. The long black hose/tube (it may even be a pipe) that starts from the right side of the air filter and goes up and over everything is the intake from the intercooler to the intake manifold. The intercooler is mounted below the bumper.
In this picture:
Fit Check
The silver part of the turbo is the intake or "cold" side - the big inlet that you can see is where the air comes into the turbo prior to being pressurized. The outlet is the silver part that is pointing to the left (it's pointing at the alternator). It looks like he plugged the boost gauge into the outlet of the turbo (the little fitting there that comes to a tee-joint). Not the worst place to put it, as it's measuring the boost as soon as it is coming off the turbo. Well, heck - even before it comes off the turbo! From there the air is routed to the intercooler that is behind the bumper. You can also see that he's got a heat shiled (the gray thing above the alternator - you can also see that in the previous picture). Heat shields are quite necessary when dealing with turbos - there were many nights after 'spirited' driving that I could pop my hood and see the turbo glowing cherry red.
Back to the first picture - there's something that looks similar to the BOV in the upper middle section of the picture (between the heatshield, the BOV hose, and the intercooler pipe) - that is the wastegate actuator (senses the pressure to open up the wastegate valve to keep boost down.
Any more questions??
I can write a novel!~Bill
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01-29-2004, 11:46 AM
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Thanks for your detailed explanations. I have been reading alot about it, and it looks like a pretty difficult thing to do. I'm still interested though, I'm going to keep reading up on the details.
It'd definately be an "over the summer" kind of project. My dad has access to most of the equipment I'd need to make it work, but I'm not sure if I am skilled enough to pull it off. I have never really done any MAJOR modifications to any of my cars before.
If I go through with it you'll all see a post about it for sure!
-Keith
It'd definately be an "over the summer" kind of project. My dad has access to most of the equipment I'd need to make it work, but I'm not sure if I am skilled enough to pull it off. I have never really done any MAJOR modifications to any of my cars before.
If I go through with it you'll all see a post about it for sure!
-Keith
01-29-2004, 03:49 PM
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Breakerfalls,
You can do it. You got to trust yourself. This project ain't that easy plus it may cost you a lot of money, not to mention the downtime of your 4Runner. But once you done it, you will gain a lot of self confidence. Good Luck!
Noel
You can do it. You got to trust yourself. This project ain't that easy plus it may cost you a lot of money, not to mention the downtime of your 4Runner. But once you done it, you will gain a lot of self confidence. Good Luck!
Noel
01-30-2004, 01:22 PM
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Thanks for the vote of confidence. I actually managed to get in touch with the owner of the page I originally linked to, and he said he'd help me with any questions I get stuck on.
If anyone else is interested in this in the future he reccomends recomends downloading a detailed installation guide for miatas at this site. It isn't really for 4Runners, but the principals are the same.
For further reading he suggested I get the book "maximum boost".
Thanks to everyone for all the help!
-Keith
If anyone else is interested in this in the future he reccomends recomends downloading a detailed installation guide for miatas at this site. It isn't really for 4Runners, but the principals are the same.
For further reading he suggested I get the book "maximum boost".
Thanks to everyone for all the help!
-Keith
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