View Poll Results: Supercharger or Turbo?
Turbo
48
54.55%
Supercharger
40
45.45%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll
Supercharger or Turbo?
06-05-2003, 08:51 AM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
naksukow ~ you forgot one more thing about turbo's....THEY MAKE MORE POWER! period. When you have the exhaust energy to spool it, a turbo will always create more actual hp in the end.
That said, I also think the SC is by far a superior choice for 99.9% of 4runners, as towing and driveability are really what they are made for.
That said, I also think the SC is by far a superior choice for 99.9% of 4runners, as towing and driveability are really what they are made for.
06-05-2003, 09:05 AM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Big Bear or Tahoe
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
naksukow ~ you forgot one more thing about turbo's....THEY MAKE MORE POWER! period. When you have the exhaust energy to spool it, a turbo will always create more actual hp in the end.
YEP
YEP
06-05-2003, 09:06 AM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Albuquerque,NM
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are numerous pros and cons with both applications. Obviously it would take up too much of this post to list.
The best investement I had my car was the timer.
Most vehicles that are turbo equiped from the factory have some sort of recerculation valve that redirects the air back into the turbo. Audi's, Subaru, Saab...etc. A vent to atmospheree BOV tends to lean the engine a tad bit and might raise the idle up a bit between shifts. With the cooling technology today on turbos, it would take an absolute idiot to crack their turbo. Vehicle manufacturers take this into consideration by putting in turbos that cool efficiently.
The best investement I had my car was the timer.
Most vehicles that are turbo equiped from the factory have some sort of recerculation valve that redirects the air back into the turbo. Audi's, Subaru, Saab...etc. A vent to atmospheree BOV tends to lean the engine a tad bit and might raise the idle up a bit between shifts. With the cooling technology today on turbos, it would take an absolute idiot to crack their turbo. Vehicle manufacturers take this into consideration by putting in turbos that cool efficiently.
06-05-2003, 06:52 PM
#44
turbos do crack!!
( how can you say that they dont crack??? have you ever seen a racing turbo after its been through the car for a while--- i personally saw an inch thick crack inside on the compressor side when we removed the IHI from my friends civic )--want pictures?? Any metal which heats up and cools off repeatedly will weaken and eventually crack. I bet if you looked at any turbo with 100,000 miles on it, it would already be cracked on the inside. Even if you cant see it, there would be microcracks which are revealed when doing NDT.
turbos burn oil
you obviously dont know the rpm requirements of a turbo do you-- how fast do they spin again???? any street racer with a turbo has to add oil once in a while because the turbo spins so fast it burns the oil, cooks the oil, whatever you want to call it--
turbos lag-- or"take time to spool"
no i didnt get that from car and driver. ask yourself, do turbos take time to spool? superchargers take no time to spool because of the mechanical connection to the engine.
if turbos were the wonderful solve-all-problem for everything, why would rail drag cars still use the big superchargers instead of a turbo?
Tim
( how can you say that they dont crack??? have you ever seen a racing turbo after its been through the car for a while--- i personally saw an inch thick crack inside on the compressor side when we removed the IHI from my friends civic )--want pictures?? Any metal which heats up and cools off repeatedly will weaken and eventually crack. I bet if you looked at any turbo with 100,000 miles on it, it would already be cracked on the inside. Even if you cant see it, there would be microcracks which are revealed when doing NDT.
turbos burn oil
you obviously dont know the rpm requirements of a turbo do you-- how fast do they spin again???? any street racer with a turbo has to add oil once in a while because the turbo spins so fast it burns the oil, cooks the oil, whatever you want to call it--
turbos lag-- or"take time to spool"
no i didnt get that from car and driver. ask yourself, do turbos take time to spool? superchargers take no time to spool because of the mechanical connection to the engine.
if turbos were the wonderful solve-all-problem for everything, why would rail drag cars still use the big superchargers instead of a turbo?
Tim
06-05-2003, 08:11 PM
#46
Contributing Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 4,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
96-4R,
I was expecting the turbos to be extremely small espcially for the twin setup. No you don't have to get into the phisics of desiels, but I still don't see how even if you did have some lag (eventhough you would have virutally none) why this would be such a bad thing for towing? Power is power, as long as its smooth whats the problem? So it might be a hair slower on reaction time, its not like its uncontrollable...?
I was expecting the turbos to be extremely small espcially for the twin setup. No you don't have to get into the phisics of desiels, but I still don't see how even if you did have some lag (eventhough you would have virutally none) why this would be such a bad thing for towing? Power is power, as long as its smooth whats the problem? So it might be a hair slower on reaction time, its not like its uncontrollable...?
06-05-2003, 08:19 PM
#47
Contributing Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 4,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hehehe... i love Duff's "Well Known Facts" about turbos.... 
I think you said it well yourself... turbos on race cars crack. We don't drive race cars... nor would a turbo system for our cars be designed to run like a race car's. When was the last time you drove a turbo car? the 80s? My 95 Volvo didn't burn a drop of oil, never had a problem with it. And do you think superchargers don't get hot?? Thats one of the reasons why the TRD S/C sucks so bad, its too small, so the boost it does produce is so hot that it doesn't help as well as it should. When you compress air it gets hot, no matter how you compress it! And as for raceing, the only reason why they use s/cs are becuase they have always used S/Cs, boost is boost, why start over and develop a whole new turbo? You think turbos can't make enough power? Saab is making almost 800hp out of a 4Banger on their pikes peak car. And Supra? 1200hp... Tekidimics (spell? help john!) race team is in the 8 sec quarter mile with a street legal supra a six cyl...
As for cracking... i had 145k on my volvo when i sold it and it didn't have any turbo dammage. My buddy had almost 200k and neither did his...
I think you said it well yourself... turbos on race cars crack. We don't drive race cars... nor would a turbo system for our cars be designed to run like a race car's. When was the last time you drove a turbo car? the 80s? My 95 Volvo didn't burn a drop of oil, never had a problem with it. And do you think superchargers don't get hot?? Thats one of the reasons why the TRD S/C sucks so bad, its too small, so the boost it does produce is so hot that it doesn't help as well as it should. When you compress air it gets hot, no matter how you compress it! And as for raceing, the only reason why they use s/cs are becuase they have always used S/Cs, boost is boost, why start over and develop a whole new turbo? You think turbos can't make enough power? Saab is making almost 800hp out of a 4Banger on their pikes peak car. And Supra? 1200hp... Tekidimics (spell? help john!) race team is in the 8 sec quarter mile with a street legal supra a six cyl...
As for cracking... i had 145k on my volvo when i sold it and it didn't have any turbo dammage. My buddy had almost 200k and neither did his...
Last edited by turboale; 06-05-2003 at 08:30 PM.
06-06-2003, 05:12 AM
#48
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will add my two cents again. I do not claim to be an expert in any of this about turbos or the s/c. I was chastised for expressing a thought earlier, hence the reason for the disclaimer. I have been a Champ Car fan for over 20 years and they have used turbos on there engine formulas for most of those years. The only reason that they are willing to use turbos is because they are reliable. I have not, in all the years that I have followed CART, heard of a turbo explosion. I have seen many a top fuel rail and funny car that have gone up in smoke because of a blower explosion. That is not to say that turbo can't do the same, it just seems to be very rare. Yes I understand that there are other factors in drag racing that you don't have with the average 4Runner, like nitrous. Banks has built turbo kits for years and they have proven to be extremely reliable. And now for my final two cents, I am an avid Porschefile. I own a vintage Porsche even though it is in more pieces than it is whole. Porsche has built engine formulas around the turbo. The 962 prototype for example that raced in the IMSA series in the 70's and 80's. They still produce the 3.6lt twin turbo in a production based 911. It appears to be pretty reliable. I look at it the same way I look at synthetic oil. If Porsche fills their cars with Mobil1 at the factory then it is good enough for me. They have the money and the resouces for the research, I don't. So if a car manufacture like Porsche is selling cars to the average Joe with a twin turbo set up then it's goood enough for me. I think that over the years people did not do the maintenance that is required with a turbo and that is why the majority of people have problems with them and therefore where the bad rap stemmed from. Just my two cents.
06-06-2003, 06:18 AM
#49
Contributing Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by turboale
96-4R,
I was expecting the turbos to be extremely small espcially for the twin setup. No you don't have to get into the phisics of desiels, but I still don't see how even if you did have some lag (eventhough you would have virutally none) why this would be such a bad thing for towing? Power is power, as long as its smooth whats the problem? So it might be a hair slower on reaction time, its not like its uncontrollable...?
96-4R,
I was expecting the turbos to be extremely small espcially for the twin setup. No you don't have to get into the phisics of desiels, but I still don't see how even if you did have some lag (eventhough you would have virutally none) why this would be such a bad thing for towing? Power is power, as long as its smooth whats the problem? So it might be a hair slower on reaction time, its not like its uncontrollable...?
But you are right, it all depends on the set-up. IMO, a SC would be much better suited for the 3.4, and the demands most people have of their Runner/Truck.
Thanks for bringing that up. Its all worth considering.
06-06-2003, 09:01 PM
#50
Contributing Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 4,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is completely no relivence to the debate... but... one thing thats cool about the trubo is nobody else has em in a truck... or... its rare. I have always tried to be new and different, b/c whats the point of modding if your just going to be like every one else? and since you can get an s/c from the facory, it seems like everyone has one, how many turbo trucks do you think are out there (non-desiel?) or more specificly, 4Runners? Not too many... espcially with the trd redily available. Idono, i just think its cool to be differnet, and since turbo technology is so much better now, why not? I mean, a vortech supercharger is a turbo, just belt driven. Oh well, i'm cool with either. I just don't want that TRD pos. I just don't see paying 2k for a supercharger thats too small, designed for stock and doesn't even come with an intercooler... Does anyone remember reading a long time ago in car and driver (may have been road and track) this was years ago, where they did a moded SUV compraro? I know there were atleast 3 other trucks. The only one I remember was the JGC... oh well, i'll try to dig it up, i just think i remember seeing some other s/c in the 4runner other than a TRD. I could be wrong, but I'll see if I can find it. It would have been a couple years ago...
and since you can get an s/c from the facory, it seems like everyone has one, how many turbo trucks do you think are out there (non-desiel?) or more specificly, 4Runners? Not too many... espcially with the trd redily available. Idono, i just think its cool to be differnet, and since turbo technology is so much better now, why not? I mean, a vortech supercharger is a turbo, just belt driven. Oh well, i'm cool with either. I just don't want that TRD pos. I just don't see paying 2k for a supercharger thats too small, designed for stock and doesn't even come with an intercooler... Does anyone remember reading a long time ago in car and driver (may have been road and track) this was years ago, where they did a moded SUV compraro? I know there were atleast 3 other trucks. The only one I remember was the JGC... oh well, i'll try to dig it up, i just think i remember seeing some other s/c in the 4runner other than a TRD. I could be wrong, but I'll see if I can find it. It would have been a couple years ago...
07-02-2003, 07:32 AM
#51
Registered User
Turbo charger or a super charger, hell I don't care if it's a little green elf whose butt gas acts like nitrous, just gimme something that will reliably make my 3.slow not so slow and not blow the motor.....lol
07-02-2003, 05:40 PM
#52
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Deep Gap, NC
Posts: 4,697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just saw this thread and I think the discussion is great! Here's my two cents! I think the best way to make either a turbo or S/C reliable and provide the kind of rwhp that we want, each item in the kit needs to have a capacity that's not being pushed to the limits on our motors. We all agree that the TRD S/C is too small and not intercooled. So, why not have a larger intercooled S/C that spins slower but produces more boost? Or, why not produce a bolt on water injection type intercooler for the TRD? Or if Turbo's are your thing, make the turbo boost reasonable, and the intercooler as big as possible. This way, unlike the current TRD S/C, these systems would not be working hard to produce the power we want.
I've toyed with the idea of running a 9psi pulley and aquamist water injection on my 4runner ever since I got the S/C. I heard multiple discussions of why and why not to add water before the impellers and how the 2nd generation TRD sucks for water injection. But, I disagree slightly with both. I think the ideal system would have one injector just past the throttle body to cool the intake air, and a system to cool the heated, compressed air coming out of the S/C at the same time, both of which come on around 3-4 psi.
Has anyone else besides me, Creed, and Gadget thought about this? I don't see why it wouldn't work, since when it rains, we're sucking water through the impellers anyway. What's the difference?
Chris
I've toyed with the idea of running a 9psi pulley and aquamist water injection on my 4runner ever since I got the S/C. I heard multiple discussions of why and why not to add water before the impellers and how the 2nd generation TRD sucks for water injection. But, I disagree slightly with both. I think the ideal system would have one injector just past the throttle body to cool the intake air, and a system to cool the heated, compressed air coming out of the S/C at the same time, both of which come on around 3-4 psi.
Has anyone else besides me, Creed, and Gadget thought about this? I don't see why it wouldn't work, since when it rains, we're sucking water through the impellers anyway. What's the difference?
Chris
08-15-2003, 09:17 PM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: houston
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris, it sounds like a great plan but I don't know how many of us are capable of making something like that. I think the best bet would be to talk to a performance shop like F2uning.
But I do know that if you did happen to make something that works, you could be making enough money to help pay off those supercharger loans.
-Neil
But I do know that if you did happen to make something that works, you could be making enough money to help pay off those supercharger loans.
-Neil
08-16-2003, 09:57 AM
#55
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Big Bear or Tahoe
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the easiest solution would be using a ATI Procharger and a custom air to air intercooler. Grab some supra TT injectors and fuel pump. HKS VPC + your choice of piggy back electronics. If you want real big power look into water/methanol injection.
08-16-2003, 06:37 PM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Deep Gap, NC
Posts: 4,697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's a couple of us working on a water/methanol injection system right now. Some are further ahead than others, but it's definitely a viable option for sure. The power gain could be very considerable with the use a smaller pulley.
Chris
Chris
10-28-2003, 01:13 PM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Scottsdale, Az
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My .02
Those of you that think you need full boost at 1000 rpms aren't being realistic. By the time you floor it at that rpm you are now at 1500 rpm, on your way to 2000 rpms and will have boost with a turbo. The only time I'm driving with the revs that low is when I'm rockcrawling and you don't need boost for that. You are rarely at an rpm were you cannot make decent boost or even full boost and depending on the turbo, lag is not an issue if you are in the power band. They are also reliable or auto manufactuers would not put them on gas cars. I've driven my 3.0 with 36"s and 38.5" everyday for the last 1.5 years with a turbo and only burnt one plug wire , to close to manifold. I have 178k on the odometer. I'm at boost everytime I take off from a stop and I floor it more times that I can count in a day and now get 10 mpg. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ight=3vz+turbo
Those that think they want a small turbo for towing. With out going into detail I'll just say, Trust me you don't. As for lag If a turbo is sized to your needs it will be enjoyable, if you bolt on something for peak HP it WILL be more laggy.
I've seen 2 cracked turbine housings on factory turbos. They were both between the internal wastegate and turbine outlet. It didn't effect there perfomance at all. I have not seen a cracked turbo had an external wastegate. If you run a turbo on the small side it will have more back pressure and with that comes more heat and then more problems. You can also warp exhaust manifolds. Never seen a cracked compressor housing but that doesn't make them unreliable cause it happened to one person.
As for turbo timers. Unless you are on the throttle with a glowing turbo when you are 30 seconds from your driveway, you don't need to let it idle. Drive sensibly.
Turbos are more efficient than roots type superchargers and will make more power. Vortech and Prochargers turbo based SC's are just as bad as they spool with RPM. You will not have full boost until redline. I don't dislike SC's, I just woudn't want one if I had a choice. I would prefer something I can intercool and modify to suit my needs.
For the last 50+ years people have been running gas through SC rotors so I don't see how water would be any different. Just make sure you have a reliable set up. If water is the only thing keeping you from deto and it fails you may also loose a piston. I have.
I think those with the 5VZ are limited by the 9.6:1 or around there compression. That's kinda high when you are looking to run alot of boost. 8.5:1 with about 15 psi would make so much more HP. I know HKS and others make 2 mm HG's for alot of motors, including V6's. I think that might a good idea if hp is your goal. There were at least 3 gasket/parts manufacturing companies at SEMA last year that had metal HG's for certian makes and could make them for any car and whatever thickness that was needed. This way you could keep the stock pistons wich would be fine if you can keep it from detonating.
I know the MSD dis4 has a boost retard. I don't what you planned on doing on the 500hp+ set up, maybe stand alone?
Those of you that think you need full boost at 1000 rpms aren't being realistic. By the time you floor it at that rpm you are now at 1500 rpm, on your way to 2000 rpms and will have boost with a turbo. The only time I'm driving with the revs that low is when I'm rockcrawling and you don't need boost for that. You are rarely at an rpm were you cannot make decent boost or even full boost and depending on the turbo, lag is not an issue if you are in the power band. They are also reliable or auto manufactuers would not put them on gas cars. I've driven my 3.0 with 36"s and 38.5" everyday for the last 1.5 years with a turbo and only burnt one plug wire , to close to manifold. I have 178k on the odometer. I'm at boost everytime I take off from a stop and I floor it more times that I can count in a day and now get 10 mpg. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ight=3vz+turbo
Those that think they want a small turbo for towing. With out going into detail I'll just say, Trust me you don't. As for lag If a turbo is sized to your needs it will be enjoyable, if you bolt on something for peak HP it WILL be more laggy.
I've seen 2 cracked turbine housings on factory turbos. They were both between the internal wastegate and turbine outlet. It didn't effect there perfomance at all. I have not seen a cracked turbo had an external wastegate. If you run a turbo on the small side it will have more back pressure and with that comes more heat and then more problems. You can also warp exhaust manifolds. Never seen a cracked compressor housing but that doesn't make them unreliable cause it happened to one person.
As for turbo timers. Unless you are on the throttle with a glowing turbo when you are 30 seconds from your driveway, you don't need to let it idle. Drive sensibly.
Turbos are more efficient than roots type superchargers and will make more power. Vortech and Prochargers turbo based SC's are just as bad as they spool with RPM. You will not have full boost until redline. I don't dislike SC's, I just woudn't want one if I had a choice. I would prefer something I can intercool and modify to suit my needs.
For the last 50+ years people have been running gas through SC rotors so I don't see how water would be any different. Just make sure you have a reliable set up. If water is the only thing keeping you from deto and it fails you may also loose a piston. I have.
I think those with the 5VZ are limited by the 9.6:1 or around there compression. That's kinda high when you are looking to run alot of boost. 8.5:1 with about 15 psi would make so much more HP. I know HKS and others make 2 mm HG's for alot of motors, including V6's. I think that might a good idea if hp is your goal. There were at least 3 gasket/parts manufacturing companies at SEMA last year that had metal HG's for certian makes and could make them for any car and whatever thickness that was needed. This way you could keep the stock pistons wich would be fine if you can keep it from detonating.
I know the MSD dis4 has a boost retard. I don't what you planned on doing on the 500hp+ set up, maybe stand alone?
