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Long term effects of cracked exaust manifold?????

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Old 09-11-2009, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ironmike4x4
As far as "engineers and "scientists" there are no replacements for real world situations. In the lab the Titanic was "unsinkable" what happened there? How many recalls are there on vehicles due to engineering faults? I'm not trying to make an argument here, I'm just going by my professional experiences and opinions and hopefully make someone make an informed decision.

P.S. the cold air sucking in would be caused by both atomospheric pressures as well as the "pulsing" of the engine in between strokes.

There's a saying in the Art industry which holds true in any, Those who teach Can't Produce!

Sorry but it is interesting to see what professors have to say but really I'll take a fellow mechanics word for it. Also if $160 to $250 is an issue you may need to invest in another form of Transportation or slim down in other expenses due to the economy, which is really a poor excuse in a large number of cases. Sure things may be tougher but really this is the time to work your a$$ off to come out on top in the end.
Old 09-11-2009, 12:22 PM
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@CarolinaGirl, I would like to see what the response is from that one prof, and any other universities that respond, as would alot of other people on this forum probably. So dont just stop posting.

Originally Posted by Evilmunkey
Sure things may be tougher but really this is the time to work your a$$ off to come out on top in the end.
X2
Old 09-11-2009, 12:26 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by CarolinaGirl
<<The replacement part from O'Reilly's is $160 with a lifetime warranty. If you can't afford that, you can't afford to drive, period. >>

For most concientous consumers, much more goes into prioritizing repairs than the mere cost of a part.

First, the PART is only have the cost of such a repair, at least around here.

Secondly, one has to decide if such a repair is worth it on a car with $225k and several other problems. (In my case, I've already driven it at least 5-10k miles without any loss of power, fuel economy, poisoning or signs of further problems. And that's 25k past when folks recommended reading it's last rites.)

Third, $250 is 50% of annual operation cost ($500/yr in gas, taxes, inspection, registration).

Third, if someone's income is very tight, as it is in this economy, $250 could be 2-3 months groceries.

But more importantly, even if your budget is not that tight, if the crack is not doing any real harm, it's just plain foolishto throw away $250, or even $160. Even if a millionaire, I could not in good conscience throw money away. But hey, if you have money to waste, more power to you.

Which is why I'm looking for sound scientific
data (rather than anecdotal) to factor into economic conditions, including age and condition of vehicle, to conduct cost-benefit analysis upon which to make an informed consumer decision.

Note the engineer Ph.D.,P.E.,CSP,CPE,CQE,CRE
did not say that it always did damage --ie doesn't always damage exhaust valves, pistons etc as many assume--but instead stated that it depended on a range of conditions. That makes assessment more difficult, but still doesn't mean the repair is necessary.
This is ridiculous. I’m sorry for whatever financial situation you or others may be in. But that is irrelevant to this. The point is, the part is broken. It’s not meant to run broken. Fix it. Period. You could go on and on about how some Ph.D. physicist in Boston said you COULD run it without harm, but what’s that prove? Nothing. How is this foolish to fix a broken part? Especially if more than half are saying that you could have some serious engine damage.

It’s like saying, “I’ve seen plenty of cars go around with 1 lug nut missing, so it should be relatively safe. I don’t have .99 cents to buy another, so it’s moving back on the priority list.” Perhaps your wheels will be fine. Perhaps not. Perhaps your engine will be fine. Or perhaps you’ve got a lot more than $160-250 bill coming your way.

It sounds like you've got an answer you WANT to hear in your head, but just don't have the facts to support it. This is not a cracked lens or a ripped seat--it is a critical part of the engine.

Good luck.

Last edited by cackalak han; 09-11-2009 at 12:33 PM.
Old 09-11-2009, 01:08 PM
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Yes the topic is complicated and requires the review of many factors.

The location of the crack.

The growth of the crack

The present size of the crack

The geometry of the crack

The type and proximity of other vehicle components in the vicinity of the crack

etc

For a certainty any visible crack will peermit the escape of exhaust gasses and much heat. Serious technical and mechanical problems can develop if this heat is directed at some nearby critical component.

Also it should not be underemphasized that a "properly" located crack will permit the introduction of exhaust gasses into the passenger compartmen.


Harold Josephs,Ph.D.,P.E.,CSP,CPE,CQE,CRE
Professor,Mechanical Engineering
Lawrence Technological University
21000 West Ten Mile Road
Southfield Mi 48075-2576
248-204-2566 cell 248 880-0090
FAX 248-204-2576
E-mail josephs@ltu.edu
Old 09-11-2009, 01:23 PM
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so he said he doesent really know based on the info and that it might melt wires near by....lmao run it till she blows then rebuild or get a "new car"
Old 09-11-2009, 01:57 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by CarolinaGirl
Ok this is my last post since no one is providing any useful info.

14 yrs ago the roofing experts all told me I needed a new roof. I assume that was based on their expertise in the field. (I've roofed a building myself before, but being a very steep pitch, I didn't feel like doing this one.) However, I based my decision on whether the roof was leaking (ie causing damage or likely to cause damage in near future). It wasn't--and hasn't in the last 14yrs, even after taking a direct hit from a hurricane, a huge ice storm,and a few storms. If I'd made my decision only on "field" advice, I'd have been out $5k--money that I spent on this car, which replaced two totalled in the hurricane.
Could have sworn I posted that a crack will indeed cause damage....

And what does being Female have to do with anything? When ever did anyone say a single thing about your gender being any reason to disagree with you?

Again, i ask you what is the point if you do NOT plan on fixing your car? Your 14 posts have centered in this thread, and I still have yet to figure out what your point is or why you are debating this.
Old 09-11-2009, 09:20 PM
  #47  
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Maybe some of the following will help. If nothing else I may be able to put you asleep. My girlfriend's 96 corolla also had a crack running right down the middle of the exhaust manifold which you could barely feel air coming out of (right at startup you could get your hand close enough and around the manifold heatshield to almost touch it before it got too hot) and has had it since I met her almost two years ago. This was around 110k miles and today is at 167k. About a month after I met her I was changing her plugs and wires when I noticed the crack. I mentioned to her father and her that it could worsen fuel economy slightly and if they planned on keeping it to change it out. They didn't and the car worked fine until about a month ago when the exhaust note was considerably louder at idle one day and sounded almost ragged during acceleration. The car had noticable drag, loss of power (which will result in poor mpg ), and the smell of exhaust was easily noticed during stops or after shutting the car off. The crack had extended and expanded considerably. Went to a local junkyard and pulled one (you will need to know if your first oxygen sensor is threaded into the manifold itself or down further into the exhaust to get the right one.) for $25 bucks at a u-pull it junkyard. car-parts.com is an online database of junkyard/parts vendors and has them anywhere from 40 to 150. Shipping may be up to 15 or 20 bucks as it is not a small nor light piece)

I actually took automotive engineering a year ago in college, but I'm not a scientist nor can a class ever replace real-world experience of professionals and besides, many don't cover some common practical problems. It's more of a design engineering class, so if you're still looking for 'scientific' knowledge on exhaust issues, one of the auto schools listed above may be your best bet. A few things about the theory side just from working on my own family's cars and with some basics on exhaust. Cold air pulled through a crack near the block should normally not be pulled into the direction of the block if the valves are in good condition and seating correctly. The exhaust valve(s) shut/seat during compression stroke and power stroke of the cylinder and only are open during the exhaust stroke to allow the piston to push exhaust out of the cylinder into the exhaust manifold, and down through the exhaust pipe. Once the piston hits top dead center of its stroke, the cams release pressure, the exhaust valve closes, the intake valve opens and piston pulls back creating a vacuum in the cylinder, drawing intake air in. If your valves were already shot or damaged then it's very feasible and possible that the exhaust air along with some cold air can be drawn back into the block and by the exhaust valve. If your valves are doing this then you will have more problems than an exhaust leak to think of. Once air is pushed into the exhaust pipe, (with a properly designed exhaust system) scavenging of the air occurs. Air is matter; it has mass, density, volume, etc. First pushed by the pistons during startup, exhaust air travels down and through the exhaust pipe and actually pulls the air behind it by vacuum. The vacuum created behind a car helps to pulls air out, but most of the work done is by the pistons, a small but significant portion is done by the scavenging. The process is a cylinder's volume of air travels through the pipe, afterwards which the next firing cylinder's air follow it, and the process is repeated over and over again. It's this vacuum that pulls in the relatively cold outside air through the crack and forces exhaust air out of the crack, both of which theoretically can break the proper flow of the scavenging system process. It is possible for the cold air to rapidly cool the valves/cylinder walls, but it would have to be constantly doing this for at least several months in some very cold weather up north or in canada, if the crack is close enough and large enough to the block to constantly draw in cold enough air to penetrate the 200-400 degree areas of the block near the exhaust ports. Racers and dragsters can understandably face the ill-effects more often as they are pushing their engines harder and faster during shorter periods of time, producing the issues at a higher rate than common transport cars. A 96 corolla with a gasoline 4banger probably won't match the same lag time of an impending failure as a dragster running nitro or alcohol.

A used exhaust manifold is not a bad deal if you can get someone to check it before you buy it. Some new metal gaskets from the auto parts store, and finding an independent small shop to do it and you would probably still come out under $150, or $75 if you have a mechanically inclined friend to buy some beer for. It isn't hard, just a few hours if the bolts are stubborn, which for old exhausts they usually are. Check with muffler shops, most do welding/bending but some do oddjobs for cheap as well. Residual and induced stress on the manifold from heat cycling, proper bolt torque from the factory (or if it's been removed and why), how hard it's been driven, if the catalytic converter is clogged - dozens of factors can influence the propagation, or stagnation, of the crack. If you plan to keep the car for more than a year or 10k to 20k miles I would highly suggest replacing it with a used manifold. At that high of a mileage already, you are more than likely going to have something else more costly fail than another exhaust manifold failure. It's the nature of high mileage cars. Now that I've put half the readers in this thread to sleep, let us know if that has satisfied your curiousity or not.
Old 09-12-2009, 09:54 AM
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I think even just that answered alot of questions.
Still be fun to hear universities opinions, but that was basically all the asked questions....
Old 09-16-2009, 07:34 PM
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Let's beat a dead horse, eh?

Scavenging has a whole lot to do with the overheating of exhaust valves. Even the seemingly poorly designed factory manifolds were designed with cylinder scavenging in mind. When a large crack in an exhaust manifold allows exhaust to exit (and ambient air to enter), the exhaust velocity can drop. This drop can cause the exhaust valve to constantly be in contact with hot exhaust gas, due to the high residual mass fraction of exhaust gas left in the cylinder after the exhaust stroke ends. Valves cannot cool entirely through contact with the cylinder head.

Leaky exhaust systems will always let ambient air into the exhaust. This is probably usually due to a venturi effect. Ambient air with around 20% oxygen will cause the exhaust oxygen content to raise significantly. This will cause the engine to run rich, due to erroneous feedback from the O2 sensors. This causes incomplete NOx reductions across the catalyst which is harmful to the environment and can cause you to fail an emissions test. Not to mention engine carbon build up and slightly worse fuel economy.

All of this being said, the chances of a real problem with a small leak are minimal in my opinion. My 4Runner has a small leak and I don't have plans to fix it unless it gets worse.

I am a former mechanic, degree'd mechanical engineer who designs exhaust systems an d emissions controls for industrial engines. They crack and leak all of the time, so I'm used to this question.

Dan

Last edited by danimal92sport; 09-16-2009 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Crappy iPhone text prediction
Old 09-19-2009, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BigBallsMcFalls
if money is an issue there is always pole dancing


or jbweld
Or Jbweld while pole dancing. It's a show that will always last
Old 09-21-2009, 08:33 AM
  #51  
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Well here is a little tidbit of useful information for you all. My pickup is a 92 22re 5sp, 2.25 exhaust all the way back (from the little Y back), no CAT and a cheap-o 2.25 muffler and it dumps out just past the rear axle. She's not too quite but not ricey at all.

Ok, ok, get on with it already...

I have been noticing the tone has slowly been changing the past 3 weeks or so and she was getting a little sluggish. I drive her everyday and about the same way everyday and I pay attention to her. So Friday I had had enough and crawled under and low and behold there was a leak...Took me a bit to find and a few burns but it was leaking at the collector and manifold.

I had though I lost one of the lil donuts but ended up being a nut fell off. So I got another one on with a lock washer and tightened up the other 2 and all is well.

Now the tone is back to were it should be and she is running better. So even a small leak will cause you issues...

But this is just the findings of a shad tree mechanic not that my word is golden.


.
Old 09-22-2009, 11:04 PM
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What is all the fuss about?

Why is everyone waiting for a response from the university? They have already given it. With the limited amount of information regarding the problem the universities professionals have received they can't make any better answer. Besides, the professors of any accredited university in automotive engineering are probably fellows (which means they help write the official standards) of SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) and ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) with their professional licenses. Their answer will most undoubtedly be to refer to the factory service manual or replace the broken component.

As for the best advice given so far, i would have to say keep an eye on it. It may last 2 years or it may break tomorrow. But you have to make an important decision whether: to cut your losses now and scrap the vehicle to buy a new one, start saving for a new one and drive this one til it dies, or take it to a mechanic to fix the manifold and any underlying reasons for the crack.

I think the second options the best.

CarolinaGirl don't take this the wrong way, but if you have a degree in some sort of science, you really should use your expert training to ask the right questions. Saying the manifolds cracked is like saying your arm hurts. What do you mean your arm hurts? Is there a crack in it? does the pain prevent you from performing regular activities? where on your arm is the crack? How big is the crack? Can you feel it getting worse? These are simple questions but are very important to any expert you are asking for help.
Old 11-27-2009, 05:17 PM
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weld it up dont waste the money
Old 12-04-2010, 07:02 PM
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Sorry for the revival...Just thought it was relevant to the thread and not worth starting another. Here is a visual for effects of a cracked exhaust manifold. Burnt and warped exhaust valves.

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Old 03-30-2015, 09:50 AM
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[QUOTE=CarolinaGirl;51225433]I, too, have a cracked manifold and have been told mixed stories about damage. For example, I was told it would allow cold air to be sucked in and damage the engine but since hot air expands, the minute the engine starts it would be pushinge air out, not sucking it in. Also, if a manifold has cracked, it's likely other things are starting to 'go' on the car, too, so timing could be incidental. So I'd like to know if there any engineering studies, rather than antecdotal info, that you all could direct me to?

Doesn't take an engineer or special training. Just think about it. Yes very important to repair for a number of reasons. 1)The exhaust will leak out front of engine so you'll be inhaling all those toxic fumes. 2) causes back pressure issues in your engine resulting in misfiring, which will also lead to spark plug damage, an 02 censor damaged, and even your valve springs. 3) will throw off your catalytic converter which will cost money to replace and cause a headache next time you go in to get a smog. Theres a bunch of other stuff but those are the most common and likely to happen problems that can occur if a damaged exhaust manifold goes unprepared
Old 03-30-2015, 10:33 AM
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You's arguing with nobody. Check the post dates, yo.
Old 03-30-2015, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by vasinvictor
You's arguing with nobody. Check the post dates, yo.
That's Gold!




Andreas
Old 03-30-2015, 02:22 PM
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I wudda just taken that broken thang off an thrown it away.
Old 04-07-2015, 06:04 PM
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What I thought was a cracked manifold turned out to be a cracked piper right on the fork that bolts onto the manifold. It was a really easy fix. Just had to replace the gaskets.
Old 11-17-2016, 08:01 AM
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For cracked manifold i have found that one can try " Quick steel extreme". You can watch videos on youtube and try it. May be it works and would be a cheap and easy fix (if it works for you).


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