Dan_90SR5

My cons with the "cheap" engine swap. You are paying $1200 for what? A used engine. With this swap you have to do a complete rebuild. I got 220,000 miles out of my 4Runner before spinning a rod bearing. 7M-GTEs are old engines. You'd be lucky to find one with 80K miles on it. I know the answer to that is a Japanese import engine, right? How reliable are they when they can't give you an actual milage from the engine like any US salvage yard? Your answer might be that they have no idea because they have them imported here. True, but I have dealt with these companies in the past (I'm not new to the Toyota scene at all) and they have reps that go to Japan to find these engines. See where I'm going with this?

Another con is that with an engine swap it can be confusing to the "shade tree mechanic". They aren't for everyone.

I agree that an engine swap is a good way to get big HP out of your 4Runner. I've seen 800HP 3SGTE, why not swap that in? If I were to do a swap, that's where my money would be, especially since I have 2 spare 5S blocks here and I'd get alot better gas milage.

To each their own, just trying to find ways to make life easier for those that like the 3VZ-E.

NCSU-4runner

i'm definetly not trying to bash your project at all. Seems to me like you are putting as much time/work into as would be needed in a full motor swap though, especially if you get a full donor car to make life alot easier. I originally bought a 7mgte longblock and was going to wire up everything myself and adapt what i needed. After that became too much of a headache i started searching for a complete donor car and im going to sell the extra block i have and use EVERYTHING off the donor car including the complete wiring harness and computer. This way the only hard part really is mounting the motor in the bay, everything else is just re-assembly. I agree on your point that you take a risk in possibly inheriting someone elses problem thats abused the motor but the supra aftermarket is insane as far as rebuilding and upgrading goes, and if you are going to put in the time for a rebuild i'd rather be doing it on an inline 6 turbo than a V6 excuse for a powerplant.


Have you decided on a HP goal to consider this a success? Would be a real bummer to do all this work and end up with a 25 hp gain max. . . I also look forward to the prospect of potential fuel economy increase as long as i stay out of the high rpms when the turbo kicks in
is the 3s/5s out of the celicas?

4RUNR

I would not be surprised if after the whole ordeal the engine makes less torque than a stock 3.0 in the lower driving range RPMS

Praufet

Well the 3vz-fe stock makes 200hp I forget the tq but its was also more than the 3vz-e, since this is basically going to be that engine, but with better injectors and higher flowing intake manifold it should be above that.

edit:
according to http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/P...neEngines.html
the 3vz-fe puts out 200hp and 204 ft-lbs putting it +50hp and +24 ft-lbs above the 3vz-e.

Dan_90SR5

NCSU-4Runner: I agree with the approach that you're trying to take on the engine swap now. That's about the only way to do it. This head swap will still come out cheaper though by the time you add in a rebuild to the 7M-GTE. Yes, we're talking less HP, but still less money.

I feel both are good options, I just hate to dump my 3VZ as would alot of other people. Others would just dunp it, but that's why guys like us are putting options out there for the rest, right?

HP goals are 200HP, that's it. If it makes more, than great.......if not oh well. If I dyno it after this is done, I'll have to have someone dyno their 4Runner with 31" for a base figure. I don't want to hear people saying it didn't gain anything when it's only making 150HP on the dyno without having a base figure at the wheels.

And yes, the 5S/3S are out of the Celica. You can swap the heads on these engines too. The 5S is just a stroked 3S. I might be able to get my hands on a free 1st gen truck. Maybe that can be my next project.

4RUNR: There is pretty much no way that this head swap will make less HP or torque if you know how and engine makes torque. I could get into it, but it would take up a whole lot of space on here. I'll just say that alot has to do with the stroke of an engine.....which we are not changing. This is why the 5VZ-FE doesn't make a whole lot more torque than the 3VZ-E or 3VZ-FE....check out the stroke on these engines.

Praufet: Once again you are the man. Thanks for posting that link. I use that site alot when sourcing parts like injectors, engine specs, etc. Some might argue that the 3VZ-FEs torque peaks at a higher RPM, but for those people......torque is more linear than HP.....at the lower RPM where the 3VZ-E peaks, the 3VZ-E should be right in the same range if not higher. The new heads will allow you to make more HP and torque throughout the RPM range. And finally for the fuel economy guys.....smaller engine are more fuel efficient at a higher RPM. After the swap, they should still have about the same fuel economy.

Praufet

I actually think fuel economy may improve, dohc motors tend to get better fuel economy. We'll just have to see what happens in the real world though.

MODZILLA

I myself will be very excited to see your results! I need to get hooked up with paypal and then I'll pitch in a few duckets for the cause. For a long time I have wanted to upgrade my engine and not just the peripherals. I got talked out of doing the swap by our local mech who handles the maint. while I'm overseas. he rebuilt the motor for us and had it bored 30 over. If I can do this head swap and jump from 12 to 24 valves, use the 3.4L intake, I'll slap on the s/c and have the ecu chip tuned and get the new injectors installed, ....man oh man I'll be so happy! Oh of course that means goin with a beefed up fuel delivery system as well but still, I don't care it would still be worth it to have the extra umpf. Great Concept!! Keep us posted Dan!

OBTW: I don't suppose I'll be able to bolt my downey Headers up to those heads will I?

Dan_90SR5

Sorry the 2 heads have totally different designs as far as the exhaust ports go......different locations and all. On a plus note, if you found a goo fabricator, he could probably modify them to work. Make new flanges, cut the pipes and some minor bending........it might work.......would depend on the fabricators skill though.

NCSU-4runner

am i wrong or does it work like this. . .

torque is the real value measured from the output of an engine, horsepower is a value calculated given horsepower and RPMs, so if the rpm range stays constant and you increase horsepower you HAVE to also increase torque.


same idea behind a diesel making TONS of torque but because the redline is like 3k RPMs they dont make much horsepower at all. And an S2000 makes lots of HP at the peak revs of whatever the redline is, but torque is on the same scale as a riding lawnmower


sorry if im too lazy to look this up but im at work so i shouldnt be wasting my whole day forum searching: whats the fe motor

3vze = 3.0 l 4runner
3vzfe = camry ? ? ?
5vze = 3.4 l 4runner

Praufet

the 3vz-fe was in the 92-95 camry

NCSU-4runner

ok that makes no sense to me, why the heck would they put a more powerful motor in a camry than the 4runner. . . someone dropped the ball on that one

PirateFins

Marketing. At that time people were more interested in "family" cars. The SUV boom didn't start until the late 90's. That would be my guess.

MODZILLA

Ja it figures I'd Have to go with different headers. Hmm that edelbrock write up from 96Runner is looking all the more interesting. Oh well someone would be gettin the deal on some downey headers then.

williemon

What about if you factor in a full bottom end rebuild on a tired old 3vze?

Dan_90SR5

I have factored that in. Let me show you the expense of this swap approximately:

$800 or less- 3VZ-E bottom end rebuild. This includes all new gaskets, oil pump, water pump, overbore pistons, cyclinders bored & honed, oil passages drilled out, etc. (quality rebuild)

$200 or less- used Camry heads with valve covers and ignition

$75 or less- complete 5VZ-FE intake and throttle body (3 pieces plus the TB)

$75 or less- exhaust manifolds

Bottom line, this head swap will run about $1200-1500 give or take.


Now for the 7M-GTE swap:
I'm being as fair as possible and put alot of research into this.

$3000- remanufactured 7M-GTE
or
$450- cheapest running 7M-GTE that I could find which would need a rebuild either way.
$200- ECU....will be needed if you don not use a front clip.
$800- to be completely fair I'm only using the cost of my rebuild on a 3VZ-E, though I know it'll cost more because a wise person woulf rebuild the turbo also.
$0-$450- for bellhousing adapters, the going rate is about $450. The $0 is for those with the right tranny.....you're in luck.....the 7M will bolt right up to your "G" or "W" series trannies.

Best case senerio which I was very generous on, $1450 (those with a "W" or "G" series tranny, cheapest engine, rebuild and ECU).

Worst case senerio, $4450 [those with the "L" or "R" series trannies (which I think the "R" series will bolt up too since both the "W" and "R" are used behind 2JZ cars) Reman. engine ECU and bellhousing.

Realistic senerio, $2000, with alot more time envolved.


It just comes down to if the extra time and money is worth the HP on your 4Runner. If you do alot of rock crawling, I'd say no since the turbo won't spool up until about 2500RPM. If you do some insane mudding like most of the rednecks here in the south.....it just might be. To each their own. Do your homework and make the choice on what you use your rig for.

If you do go with the 7M-GTE, I'd suggext swapping out the CT26 turbo for a T3. It'll spool up faster than the stocker.

Dan_90SR5

More food for thought. I wonder if it would be possible to use the 3VZ crank in a 5VZ engine. I read somewhere about someone saying that they did it, but I have no real research into this. Take a look ate the specs:

3VZ-E:
87.5 x 90.0

5VZ-FE:
93.5 x 82.0

after crank swap:
93.5 x 90.0

Looks VERY nice.

More reason to research. Some 3S-GTE(2.0 turbo engine on 4th-6th gen Celica, though only overseas saw the 6th gen with this engine) owners have figured out that they don't have to spend $2000+ for the 2.2L JUN stroker kit. They can use the 5S-FE crank which is the 2.2L N/A engine found in the 4th-6th gen Celica and just about all Camrys to this day, though they have given the engine a longer stroke now and redesignated the engine code.

Does someone have the 5V journals measurements? Here are the 3VZ specs.

mains: 2.5195-2.5197
rod: 2.1648-2.1654

That might have been brought up in the past and might not be possible, just a passing thought.

Flygtenstein

I admire your undertaking. I think that it is a foolish waste of time.

Get a 3.4

They can be found for reasonable prices and fit stock engine mounts if you have a V-6 now and will go right into the engine bay. If you have a 5spd, get an ORS harness and plug and play. You will get newer, better electronics, an absence of vacuum crap and power in a truck engine.

Cebby

I'm actually pretty surprised to hear this based on the experience you've had the pleasure (?) of undertaking to make this happen in the cheese mobile.

I, for one, can't afford the type of downtime you experienced - let alone the cost. If I can make the 3VZE ECU work (no wiring change) and the block work (no engine mount changes) with the benefit of the 5VZE top end (4 cams, healthy breathing heads, and option for an SC), I'm all ears.

The notion of swapping in the 3.4 for the DIY'ers is a major undertaking that very few have undertaken. I won't undertake a major swap (completely diffferent motor) until my rig is retired from daily use. I'm not there yet.

Dan_90SR5

Cebby, I'm glad that there are guys like you and Praufet out there that see the same views that I see.

Yes, I have had alot of downtime with my 4Runner, but it's been because of doing a lift, lack of money and other personal issues. Once I'm done and finish my write-up it will be very quick for someone to follow suit. I'm actually going to go threw with the dyno tests now though. There are too many people that think this is a waste of time, to not put my money where my mouth is.

On that note, I have actually saved up more money than I thought I would be able to on my own and we are at full speed as soon as my relitives leave. They'll be here next week, that's the reason for the wait. I also have my N)2 kit and a few other things on ebay, so I should have all the money needed to finish this project.

Praufet

Personally just modding the existing motor is far less intimidating than swapping a new one in, and it'll be nifty to be one of the few people who has a modded out 3.0.