dfoxengr

think about advancing your ignition timing to make your car gain power....does the motor run better then....nope

Weasy2k

course it runs better

why do you think it makes more power yep

how can the engine run crappy and gain power?

Weasy2k

Cams

oly884

So, would we need to be looking at a new oil pump/head studs?

I'm hoping that we don't have to look at getting a new oil pump with the cams. If so, then I'd probably have to pass.

If not, then this would look like a bit better for me than the turbo set up. Though, all is too soon to tell.

Weasy2k

nope you wont need those....the only thing you need to do is check your clearances (valve shims and such) which you have to do anyway as its part of the maintenance cycle of the engine any...i know nobody does it but hey why not do it now!

If you want to go all out then yes its recommended to do all that....thats what im doing in my 5vz swapped into mr2...

oly884

Excellent. This is exactly what I wanted to hear!

Well, pending on the dyno, the cams look like a great option. The turbo would be nice, but it might be a touch much for me right now.

So, from what I read, you move the red line up to 7k possibley 7.5k. Get another 40 hp or so, but how's it going to affect the powerband? Move it up I assume.

So, I guess what I'm asking about these cams is; will it basically be the same power up to 5.5k then the additonal power from the extra 2k or so? Or will it be more power all the way though? Or little less down low, a lot more up top?

Weasy2k

Ok here is what these cams were designed for:
A) to help N/A applications when using the stock redline as many people know our engiens run out of breath at 4000rpmish.... so we have a very low power band to work with already.
What these cams are going to do is stretch that fall off and make the power loss occur more around 5200rpm area giving you a 1200-5200rpm increasing power level.

We are both unsure of whats going to happen when this is used in a stock redline but supercharged environment, he suggest a larger spike in power around 4k till 5500rpm moreso then we see already. That is why i will be testing everything for you guys

B) IF you want to go the extra mile which we are doing here on the 5vz i am putting into the mr2 (7500rpm redline instead of the 5500rpm) You need to do the following:
Standalone ems
Aftermarket valve springs (we will be selling)
High flow oil pump
and the cams....
In this scenario you will be able to run the engine to 6500rpm before you see a fall off when used in a N/A application...
With boost the above B scnario will make it so you can have ever gaining power until just before the top redline of 7000-7500rpm.

So for you right now scenario A applys to you

sandiego

I have a question. If you increase the RPM to 7500+ and add a high volume oil pump, won't the oil pump empty the oil pan? High volume oil pump already increases the volume of oil pumped out of the pan. Now if you increase the RPM's to 7500+, I'm thinking the oil pump can drain the pan. The oil pump is directly coupled to the cam shaft. The faster the cam turns, the faster the oil pump will pump oil from your pan. Now you need a higher capacity oil pan for the increased oil volume, especially at 7500+RPM. Does this make sense?

I would verify this if I were you. Just a thought.

One more thing, I think what you are doing is very cool also. Please don't get the idea I am bagging on this project. I want this to be successful for you and all the other Toyota owners out in the field. This is just a concern that a potential customer might ask you....Like me.

Bumpin' Yota

hmmmmm cams for a 3vze? Wow talk about easy HP!

Weasy2k

THink of it this way sandiego...where is the oil going to go? Back to the pan as fast as it left it
Not a real concern at all, i have looked into this already and deemed ok, of course i will be testing everything to make sure so i can pass this knowledge onwards.
Thanks for the push as well I appreciate those comments!

Bumpin yota....yes, it will be some easy HP and cheap too

Bumpin' Yota

I've not changed the camshafts in any engine before, can you guys do a good write up for those of us who do buy them step by step for putting them in?

Oh should we invest in adjustable gears and perhaps one of those timing circle doohickys to properly degree the cam?

JamesD

SanDiego, the oil pump works off the crankshaft not the camshaft. About the oiling system. Good points have been brought up. Now on an OHC motor it is very critical to make sure that the oil has a chance to return to the pan. OHC motors require more oil than a pushrod engine. The reason behind this is because pushrod motors have an oil gallery going through the pushrod then it squirts out of the rocker arm and then oil is splashed around to lube everything else. In OHC motor you have to have oil galleries to go to the cam journals and lifters. What makes it even harder is the design. Since all your cams and lifter are on top of the motor, the oil has to travel farther, then all the way back down to the pan. With high rpm's on the OHC motor, sometimes the oil cant drain back to the pan fast enough causing parts to seize. Pushrod motors dont have to worry about this since the cam and lifters are right above the crankshaft. This is why high performance motors that are built for high rpms have a higher capacity oil pan so it will have adequate oil in the pan after everything has been lubed in the motor and is waiting to drain back down into the pan. Personally I still have doubts reving the 3.4 to 7000+ rpm's even with the HV oil pump. Will the design of the motor allow the oil to drain back fast enough? I dont think Weasy2k knows for sure but if he is going to be the guinea pig then lets do it!

James

Weasy2k

Bumpin yota,
Yes I will be providfing a very detailed write up as well, support and technical direction is somthing I/My company are going to focus on, becuase we want to make the installs go very smoothly.
The cams will even come WITH feeler gauges so you dont have to go out and buy a set to use.


SRV1, yea i knew the oil pump was on the crank i just didnt bother saying it at the time...
How will i be testing this you may ask....(well due to what you wrote)...if you have noticed on the 5vz the oil return ports are FRIGGEN MASSIVE i have never seen some that large before, and normaly when you rev up high you do that when your engine is warm making the oil flow even better, personally i can see no way of this causing and issue- anyway as i was saying on the mr2 engine I will be drilling a hole in the oil pan and putting in a sensor that the mr2 cars have, this oil level sensor will be hooked up to the stock light on the car so that way when/if oil gets low the light will show.

I am going to be driving at 7k rpm going around turns, down hills, up hills 1L below fill....just to see what cases there will be...the great thing is when that light turns on you still have plenty of oil left in the system but jsut warns you to check on it.

Toysrme

I am looking forward to it the cams greatly. It should help the 3vz-e's tremendously. If someone were really smart, they'd do a mild port & polish job themselves & lap the valves off, or if they need help, send them off to a trusted machine shop with import engine experience to be done!
The same can be said for the 5vz-fe!

Just so you know what a 3vz-fe sounds like bouncing off the 7,000-7100rpm stock fuel-cutoffs.
1993 Camry A/T 3vz-fe 1992 ES 300 M/T
Once I swapped my smt6 over to driving the ignition coil directly I've seen it logging 7500rpm before bouncing off the fuel-cut - with no signs of floating that I could tell.
For that, obviously you have to take my word on it, but there it is none-the-less.


For flow sheets I'm sorry, but your stuck with tough cookies. Flow bench numbers don't equate to any useful data (Except when balancing cylinders after roughing them in). Noone that's ported & polished has cared to know, or record numbers. Myself included.

Every modern Toyota engine FSM:
Exhaust and intake valves are equipped with irregular pitch springs made of special valve spring carbon steel which are capable of functioning no matter what the engine speed.
3vz-fe FSM:
Free length: 41.4 mm (1.630 in.)
Installed tension: 186–206 N (19.0–21.0 kgf, 38.4–42.4 lbf) at 33.3 mm
(1.311 in.)
Look that up against Toyota i4 springs.
If the v6 springs meet anything more than minimum Toyota spec - they are the same tension range that Toyota uses on larger cams on i4's that spin 7000rpm+ before their fuel cuts.

The lifter buckets - yes. You would need more than bad luck to knock a shim out @ just 6000-7000rpm. Some of the 3s-ge/gte i4's have gone up to 8000rpm without bothering with the shimless bucket conversions, tho the vast majority do it because it doesn't add much cost once you've spent money on camshafts!
The shimless conversion also drops the valves down because they're so thin - causing the need for very stiff valve springs. (Which if stiff enough can negating any gain from the lower reciprocating weight.)

Who said anything about a cast cranked 3.0L v6? For the record I never said anything about the weak 3vz-e. 3vz-fe.

Forged steel crank & virtually the only thing shared in common between the engines are the main bearings. Rods, pistons, connecting hardware - all different.




If you wanna know about what the 3vz-e valvetrain can do, I suggest comparing it against other Toyota engines & taking off a couple hundred rpm from the larger valve size & a need for ever stiffer springs.

Toysrme

I would be curious as to find out how similar the 3vz-e/5vz oil pumps are to the car v6's that turn more rpm.

JamesD

Flow bench numbers don't equate to any useful data?

One thing I forgot to ask is any of these cams going to have a CARB number? Will they pass CA emissions? I dont have to worry about this but many other members here do.

James

JamesD

Oh and I watched your videos Reving your moms car that high is not good. Just because the engine can rev to 7000 doesn't mean it is safe to do. Tell you what, rig a device to hold the rpm at 6800. Walk away for 10 minutes and let me know what happens. Better yet video tape it. Taking a motor to do something it is not supposed to do is not right. Why do you think Toyota put a rev limiter in at 7000? Hey if you want to rev the crap out your car then that is fine but don't come here and spew any facts from a ricer vid you posted. Take this post as you will but you got to look at it from the other side as well.

James

Toysrme

Really they don't. They don't work closely enough like an engine to come out with anything that is immdiately & directly useful.
Spend some time with them. I don't claim to be a master at it, but I will go far enough to say that a flow bench is only to make customer's happy. The things are the last thing in the mind of anyone that's awsome at it.
Like they say, more art than anything else.

Why is that? I'll be happy to explain!
They have no explaination for port velocity - which is JUST as important as any possible raw flow data is. people don't udnerstand that. Even the vast majority of people that have done head work don't realize the extint that velocity can play.

You want a huge power increase by this saturday? I will stake any amount of the small reputation I have on any toyota car forum, about knowing the least little bit of a percent that I know about getting power out of some of the engines.
If you go choke your intake ports down to 80% of valve diameter you will pick up 20-30bhp for atleast the first 1/2 of your powerband. It should fall down to stock power levels by 3/4 of the way through the powerband.

I said it... Pure & simple. It's the perfect excuse to take your valves out for a cleaning & change the HG's also!




Why? Raw velocity increases. Can a flowbench tell you anything useful about CFM VS velocity balance? No!!!

That means in the BEST case you only get 50% of the data of the system. Then take into account that a fluid dropping thrgough a port, or an electric motor created a vacuum isn't exactly a good substitute for the engine itself.


Flow behinds just... eeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaarg!



People make flow benchs out to be something they're not. I'm not saying they're just useless, they just not close to the be-all end-all answer that they've been given over the decades.



That is 100% my opinion.



They're not my videos...

Weasy2k

Rev an engine to what its not supposed to means redline and a hair bit above it....The autos redline is 5250 on our trucks the 5spd is a hair higher...i say our engine will run to 5750-6000 before any threat of damage occurs (of course you wouldn't be making power)...why would a manufacture like Toyota put the redline at MAX rpm...toyota loves to under tune there engines for reliability.

Also you said dont go above what its supposed to...well if you build the engine to take taht...then you just changed what its supposed to. I have talked to several people who have looked at these 5vzs and all told me the bottom end looks stout enough to handle well above the stock rev limiter, all of the being machinists or heard from there machinist. Of course I'm happy to be the geniua pig!

sandiego

I have some learning to do. Does anyone have an exploded view of the 3.4L engine? Apparently I don't know what I'm talking about.