Dutchbelly

doing some more searching, I actually opened a thread in the newbie section hoping people would help me out with engine info. Looks like the 22re started out in 1982, and in 1983 went to single row timing chain. I'm trying to find a good pic to compare to the timing cover in Terry's pic to rule out mine being an '82. I don't remember the timing cover being any thicker than the engine from my '88, but I'd like to be sure.
Edit: found a pic of the timing cover, and blew it up a bit with MS Paint. I added it to the post before this one to make it easier to compare against Terry's '83 engine.

Dutchbelly

Did a bit more research. Apparently the 22re in the Celicas were mated to the W55 transmission. The W56 in my 4runner was based off of the W55, and despite changes in the ratios for 1st and 2nd gear to allow for the heavier trucks to pick up speed, the transmissions should be identical. So that would answer my question as to whether I can bolt my tranny onto it. Still wondering about other issues I might have though, like whether the ecu in my '88 will work fine with the engine.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Hello Dutch.. 1. I am sure it would bolt up to the tranny. The transmission that was attached to this Celica 22r is now in my flatbed in my avatar. It was a direct bolt up. I didnt even have to lenghten or shorten the driveshaft. I think I changed tranny mount and that was just using the pickups tranny mount and used same bolts and holes. This was also going from a truck 4 speed to a Celica 5 speed. No problems at all.

2.Also on the Passenger side of the head there is a plate, by the motor lift hook on a injected motor. That is where a mechanical fuel pump would go for a carbed motor.

3.I have seen on ebay and other sites like the timing cover and gaskets are the same, and I think even the timing chais are the same for a fuel injected and carbed motor, but wont say for sure. It has to do with more of the internals I think, like rods and crank.

4.A guy told me that all of the bolt holes are in the head to convert one from carb to injected and vice versa, that you just have to get the correct bolts. If that is the case, I dont see why you could not convert the Celica motor to fuel injected.

5.I think even the newer 22res have 2 oil plugs. One for the sensor and one a has a bolt in it.

The reason I numbered my statements is that 1 and 2 I am positive on, and 3,4, and 5, I really cant say is fact.

As it stands now, when I do get to doing that 82 truck in my build thread, that is the motor I plan on using. So I may have some surprises later on and find out what is true or not. But as of now I understand the Celica and truck motors are the same.

After going back and looking, you can see on the first pic by my blurry thumb, that is where the mechanical fuel pump would go, and on a 22re moto it is blocked by a plate.

I put a pic of the front of the motors timing cover. If you can see thru all of the gunk. Need some different shots let me know.

Toenail619

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I am kinda a noob but on my 87 4runner the thing your top finger is pointing to is the knock sensor and the bottom finger is the oil pressure unit. Dont know if that helps but I thought i would throw it out there.

ChefYota4x4

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Hey Dutch

I'm in such a rushed state lately.... is there any way you could do a nice, clean, numbered list of the questions/concerns you're having?

I saw the ECU one.... shouldn't be a problem, as long as you're still using YOUR TRUCK harness. Pretty sure the Celica wouldn't have the 4WD connector in the harness, lol.

Terry's right on the Oil sending/plug section. Mine has a plug AND an oil pressure sending unit. I think the other plug is for the Turbo's for an oil cooler, no? If not, .... are you SURE it's not a coolant bleeding/flushing port? My oil sending unit on my 87 22RE is right below the oil filter.... think I have pics, lol. In fact, I have TONS of motor pics, if you need em?

Far as the height of motors/heads, .... I can't remember exactly which years... Think it's PRE-84, 22r's..... The block or head, yes, is taller.... Dome Pistons/Dish Pistons....whatever, they create higher compression, so on, are the differences. If you want my machinists number, ...he'd gladly tell you what's different. But, ....you know what? Can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure it's even in the Haynes(the motor height differences/head stuffs).

KEEP KILL'N IT, HOMIE! LOL.

Dutchbelly

I think you're exactly right about the locations. On your '87 and my '88 in the top left location there is a knock sensor. on my Celica engine the oil sensor is there, and it looks like the one needed for the gauge and not just the light. I'm going to see if I can get some pics for better clarification.


Ok so there's a pic with 3 locations circled. It seems depending on the year of 22re there will be different things in one or more of those 3 locations. You can see in that pic at location 1 the Celica engine has an oil sensor. Pretty sure Toenail is correct when he says in the later 22re's the knock sensor is there. On the thread I started in the newbie section on this it was mentioned that the early 22re's had no knock sensor, and I'll probably have to install one for my ecu to work properly. Ok, so Location 2 has nothing on it, because it was covered by the celica engine mount brackets, but on the later 22re's that's where the oil sensor gets put. Location 3 gets covered by the motor mount brackets for the 4runner, but you can see there's a plug there as well. If you look at Terry's Celica engine there's a sensor plugged into that location. Possibly the oil sensor for the cluster light? I don't know. I'll find pics of the late 22re, and also repost Terry's engine for clarification shortly.

Ok so there's a pic of the late 22re. You can see the oil sensor there in what I'm calling location 2. You can see the engine mounts covering location 3.

And there's Terry's '83 Celica engine again. I've circled location 3, it looks like there's a sensor there. Location 2 is covered by the Celica engine mounts.

Dutchbelly

Oh, and in reply to you Chef, I'm pretty sure this is the drain plug you were talking about on the other side of the engine:


As far as an organised list of questions, I don't really have one yet. I've been jumping from this thread back to the one I started on the subject in the newbie section, and I've been getting mixed information. I guess what I need is clarification. It's been mentioned in the other thread that the Celica engine has no knock sensor, which makes me wonder if I'll need to put one in for it to work with my '88. It's also been suggested that I should swap all the sensors over from the '88 engine to the Celica one or the Ecu might not work properly. I suppose what I would be looking for is a list of the sensors I'd have to swap over for this engine to run on my '88 4runner ecu. That, and any other things I might have to change to make this engine work so I could get the truck on the road without having to rebuild an engine first.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I think you'll need one if you're using your 88ECU.... (87?... sorry, losing it! lol)

NOT SURE, but here's why...

When I swapped in another ECU, early in my troubleshooting(before the realllllllll nightmare began! lol).... It said 87 but it was an 88... Mine being an 87 truck and components...... it rejected the 02 signal it was getting and the Knock Sensor signal as well. No matter what I did, regardless that it was without ANY knocking or pinging..... It was actually the ECU rejecting my 'correct' Knock Sensor in my rig.

Maybe that wouldn't work the same as you're keeping the 87 ecu and harness, but putting IN a different motor, right? Don't see why the 87 Knock Sensor installed in yoru celica block wouldn't work though...and it goes in a dry hole anyhow.

I'm guessing that detailed pics of my 87 22re aren't going to help, right? You're needing the Celica or Older 22r pics? Kinda lost, sorry! lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Oh what the heck.... it can't hurt.

87 22RE, Knock Sensor installed and Oil Pressure Sending unit(with rubber boot, just like yours) is right below the Oil Filter..... And that small oil sender you have in the other pic is indeed just for a dummy light, no gauge function on that one. >>>>>



In this pic, the knock sensor isn't installed yet... But it's the hole RIGHT AT 3'O'CLOCK from the Fuel Filter Bracket>>>

Dutchbelly

K thanks for the pics Chef, and It's good to have a lot of this confirmed. So as of now It looks like I'll be swapping my knock sensor over to the Celica motor, I'm assuming the oil pressure sensor will work as is. I'll be using the O2 sensor from my 88, when I replace the exaust. Anyone think of any other sensors I"ll have to update?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I'm kinda confusededed, Dutch! lol.

can you just confirm what you're putting into what, what you're keeping and what you're modifying?

I.e.; Is it an 84 Celica 22R? And you're switching it to RE? But you're using all your existing RE stuff you already had, like harness, sensors, relays, etc.? Are you using the Celica Exhaust Manifold?(I ask because I know it went from Round to Pear Shaped Exhaust Ports at 83-84 22R(somewhere around there). Just wanna know what you're asking so I can maybe fish down some goodies/info, ya know?

Dutchbelly

I'm pretty sure it's a '83 or '84 22re. And yes, it's already fuel injected, the Celica's had fuel injection already in '82. I'll be using the wiring harness from the '88, and probably swapping over the knock sensor because the Celica engine doesn't have one. I probably will be using the exhaust manifold from the Celica, because I was told in my other troubleshooting thread that the two aren't interchangeable. I haven't checked yet to see if the collector pipe will bolt right up. Beyond that, I'm not sure what I'll have to change because there's a fair amount of info on the early 22r, but not much out there on the early 22re. The fuel injection system and most of the sensors are already there, but I'm not sure if they'll work with the ecu in my '88. I'll continue researching on my own, but any info you could dig up would be appreciated. Thanks again, Chef.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, I'm concerned on the "injector" end, as well. I know that, even with the 85-87, the injectors were 'A' resistance..... where as with 88+... they were not only different resistance, they were different injectors, I believe,....which would make me wonder, 'is the injector resistor the same?'. Then, there's the '2- 02sensor' systems some of the 88+ have.... As well as what I believe was a different knock sensor.

MUCH OF THAT^^^^ just thinking out loud. DEFINITELY RESEARCH! lol. I just want you to be able to slap it together and NOT tear it down again due to something like 'injectors' or something, ya know?

Dutchbelly

Is there a website with all these injector differences? I guess I could swap out the entire fuel rail and plenum to be safe, at this point I'm wondering if I should just throw the thing together, try it, and if it doesn't work park the truck while I rebuild the '88 engine. This engine was supposed to be a quick and easy way to get the thing running for a while. I didn't plan on putting a ton of work into a temporary engine, if you know what I mean. Keep it comin Chef, these are all things I wasn't aware of. Pretty sure my '88 only had one O2 sensor in the exhaust, but I never really looked into it.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey Dutch.... my advice would be to call LCE.... If you get Wes, I believe it is, he will really go out of his way to let you know what will/will not work. Most often, he hits up his tech guys who build some of this stuff/install it in Havasu, AZ.

Another place to call, GREAT guys/guy,.... is RC Injectors, Torrance, CA. Call and talk to the sweet lady at the desk, tell her your dilemma and ask to speak to one of the techs in the back? (maybe witchhunter is available to discuss this as well? I'm sure they would know, ya know? )

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Just wanted to let you know, there is supposed to be adifference in the older heads and newer heads. The newer are "pear shaped" and from what I hear the older are more "rounded'. I understand that the manifolds interchange.

I do know that on my 2 wheel drive flatbed and most/.
maybe all 2wd that the O2 sensors is in the manifold and is a single wire where a 4WD is 2 or 4 wire and basically mounts under the seat.

Best as I can tell in the pics they would interchange and you could just leave a sensor in there or block it off.


If all of this correct, it shouldnt matter. I know there is an power upgrade that I have read using a 20R head but not sure what all is involved.

The only difference is I think is the Intake Silencer Pipe if that is correct name.

Here is a pic of the 83 Celica manifold and a newer (a former 89 I owned)

I just threw the "Y" pipe away a few day ago as it was cracked and rusted.



O2 Sensor locations.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

The only problem I could see would be the knock sensor. On the 83 motor there is about a 1/4 inch plug or bolt and then I looked at an 89 block I have and it is about 3/8th inch.

I didnt know about different injectors, Thanks Chef. If you want some pics of the 2 different knock sensor holes, let me know.

May not be much help but I can get pictures. I got plenty of parts except for what I need.lol

Dutchbelly

Thanks for the pics Terry. Every little bit of info helps. I've heard about the 20r head being an upgrade, apparently it breathes much better than the 22re head. Pretty sure it only bolts onto early 22r blocks, not sure if the early 22re is the same block. Would make sense if it was, though. I'm not planning on doing it, it's just interesting to know these things. I read xxxtreme22r post on my other thread that the manifolds aren't a direct swap, not really sure what's true, once again I'm not worried about that either as I can use the old 22re manifold, and as you say just leave the old 02 sensor in it. If I do find out they're compatible I might use that manifold later on my rebuilt engine so I can throw an air/fuel mixture gauge in the mix if funds ever permit. Right now it's looking like I'll have to put in a compatible knock sensor, and swap out the injectors with 1988 injectors to make this engine work with my '88 ecu. There are bound to be other sensors that are incompatible as well, I'm wondering how I got myself into this mess.

Dutchbelly

Found this to confirm what Chef was talking about:



Isn't it great that 1988 is the oddball? And that I chose to rebuild an 88? Without a running '88 engine? lol at least my life isn't boring. Looks like if I plan on making this truck run I'll be swapping some injectors.

Dutchbelly

I got some more work done today. I had taken the flywheel, pressure plate and clutch off of the '88 engine the last night I was out there.

The clutch plate doesn't look awesome, but I'm going to use it anyway, I dont' want to buy a new clutch kit only to replace it again later on when I rebuild the '88 engine. Right now I'm not even sure I can make this engine work, so I've decided I'll do everything within my power to make it happen without spending any money, and if I waste my time, well at least I've learned something. Wasting money is a different story. What that meant was I needed to put the clutch and pressure plates on the Celica engine without an alignment tool. I also needed this adapter plate:

I cleaned it up and bolted it to the Celica engine I had to brace the Crank in order to torque the flywheel onto the engine. This worked:

And then torqued the flywheel bolts to 80 ft/lbs starting at 40, and working up in increments of 20.

I know people use threadlocker on these bolts, but I plan on removing them within the year. I held the clutch plate up close to centre and bolted the pressure plate on hand tight. I centred the clutch plate by eye, and just snugged the pressure plate enough to hold it there. Once again, I didn't have an alignment tool so I figured I'd just put it on snug, and test fit the transmission. I tried doing this and then found out there was a dowel in the transmission and also a dowel in the engine:

I tried taking the one out of the engine, but it wouldn't budge. After 5 minutes of wiggling the one in the tranny popped out and I was able to mate the tranny to the engine. I then took about 6 flat head screwdrivers and tapped them all around the edges of the seam to remove the tranny without pushing the clutch plate out of position. I was now confident that I could torque the pressure plate, my haynes said 11-15 ft/lbs, and I always hate when something is such a low torque. I don't have a torque wrench that I would trust for a reading that low, so I always just pick a wrench that's close to a foot long and apply what I guess would be about 10 lbs of pressure. I always guess low when I do it by feel, because I know myself enough to realise I tend to overdo it. I didn't take a lot of pics for the next while because I was trying to get a lot done. I mated the tranny to the engine, so apparently you don't really need the alignment tool. I then picked the set up and test fit it with the engine lift brackets and also the transfer case bracket. They didn't line up perfectly, but I've been on this earth long enough to realise that even factory components don't just line up without a bit of wiggling. I was confident enough to pull it all back apart and weld the xmember solid:

I had enough time to take a pic after I had painted it.
I then welded up the engine lift brackets but didn't have enough time to paint them. I put it all back together for the night loosely bolted because I didn't want to leave it hanging on the engine hoist. I still need to paint the engine lift brackets, but here are a few pics:



That last pic is a pretty good pic to show my clearance on the transfer case xmember. If you look close you should be able to see that it's still below the frame, but its probably 5 inches higher than factory.