Alignment Issues? Can't get your rig aligned after a lift? Info...
03-21-2006, 04:52 AM
#1
Alignment Issues? Can't get your rig aligned after a lift? Info...
seems like alot of this is going around lately.
WELCOME TO ALIGNMENT 101!
(this is a good reference for each term used and what each one means. before you shell out $100+ for an aligment, learn what the kid is doing to your steering system. http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm)
Intro: we have a solid rear alxe and independent front suspension on every 4runner and truck since 1986. you do NOT need a full 4-wheel alignment on these vehicles since there are NO ADJUSTMENTS for the rear. the only adjustments on them are one the front, and therefore if a "2-wheel alignment" is cheaper at the shop than a 4-wheel alignment, by all means, save your money. below are the basics of any decent "2-wheel alignment" that should be followed to the "T" for every alignment on our toyotas.
"what is involved in an alignment?" three things are the basis for a good alignment:
camber is the "tilt" of the wheel. it either tilts in at the top or tilts in at the bottom. slight tilt in at the top is desirable.
caster is what makes it drive straight on the freeway and keeps the steering tight. notice on a shopping cart how the front wheels will turn in whatever direction you turn the buggy? that's because the contact patch of the wheels trails the pivot point of the steering axis. you want a slight negative caster (contact patch trails the axis of rotation). this makes steering very solid feeling at high speeds - as long as the camber and toe are properly adjusted.
toe - think of it as pigeon toed or crows feet...
its the angle of relation of the two front wheels when looking from above (with the top of the lines being the front of the vehicle - a bird's-eye view). if they are like / \, then the toe is negative or it's sometimes called "Toe-In". if they are like \ /, then the toe is positive and that is sometimes called "Toe-Out". too much of either is bad and will cause VIBRATIONS - no matter what someone else may tell you - BAD TOE CAN AND WILL CAUSE VIBRATIONS LIKE AN OUT-OF-BALANCE WHEEL.
most shops don't care to do it correctly, and that's why you get drift, poor highway feel, and vibrations. our 3rd gens are very sensitive to alignment issues, so if it doesn't feel good, then it's out of alignment. when a 3rd gen is done properly, then it feels AWESOME on the road.
The one thing you want to ALWAYS request up-front BEFORE an alignment is done are initial and final printouts of the specs that the alignment machine are reporting. Use this printout as a reference for reviewing the work that was done and make sure that all adjustments are within the recommended TOYOTA specs.
__________________________________________________ _____
steering center - first and foremost, the steering wheel should be rotated to the "center position", the key turned off and the steering wheel locked into position. this will assure that when you go down the road (assuming that everything else is correct) your steering wheel will be centered. this is an annoying pet peeve of mine that i can't STAND when left uncorrected...
Another problem with steering center has to do with the type of roads that are driven on. Most roads are crowned to allow for water drainage you usually drive on the right side of the crown. This may cause the vehicle to drift to the right so that the steering wheel will appear to be off-center to the left on a straight road. The best way to compensate for this is as follows:
If there is a difference in caster, it should be that the left wheel is more negative than the right wheel, but not more than 1/2 degree. Check the specs for the specific recommendations on side-to-side differences.
If there is a difference in camber, then the left wheel should be more positive than the right wheel. Check the specs to see what the allowable difference is.
__________________________________________________ _____
now, on to the technical stuff:
caster is easily adjusted and should be done FIRST. on a 3rd gen, you do that by moving the front and rear lower cam adjustments until you create a situation where the contact patch of the tire is physically behind the axis of rotation created by the upper and lower ball joints.
from there, you adjust the camber. you get the camber set by moving front and rear adjustment cams the same amounts (inward or outward) to keep the caster set, so you have a ever-so-slight tilt inward at the top (1 degree or less usually), then you recheck your camber.
next, worry about the toe. you adjust the toe by turning the adjustment nuts on the steering links (tie end rods). this is a more tedious process and most techs that i have run across don't bother with toe adjustments, even though they are critical in getting a smooth, oscillation-free ride.
***VERY IMPORTANT STEP***
as a final "step" you then go back and check caster again, AND RE-ADJUST. then check camber again, AND RE-ADJUST. finally, check toe again, AND RE-ADJUST. repeat the process until all (3) are in-spec. a proper alignment is an iterative process - not a get-em-in-and-get-em-out job.
*****SUPER IMPORTANT FOR THOSE OF US WHO GO OFFROAD*****
finally, YOU RE-TORQUE EVERYTHING DOWN - especially the DRIVER FRONT and PASSENGER REAR CAMS along with the TIE END ROD LOCK DOWN NUTS- THESE ARE THE MOST CRITICAL. If you don't torque the snot out of these two cam lock-down bolts, every time you go over a heavy bump, the weight of the rig will want to "walk" these two cam lock-down bolts (the geometry tries to turn them to the left and loosen them) and torque the cam so that it spins to the outside, pushing the lower part of the tire farther out than the top. this will screw up all three aspects of the alignment, causing a negative caster, negative camber, and toe-in. alignment shops grease monkeys (more likely kids now-a-days) are NOT going to properly torque these cam lock-down bolts. after an alignment, i take my 18" socket breaker handle and put about 180+ ft-lbs on them to snug them down. not ONCE have they ever been properly tightened after an aligment.
As far as SAI and Included Angle are concerned, you shouldn't have any issues with these as long as everything is installed properly and you don't have any bent or broken parts. If the alignment shop tells you that one of these are out of spec, then you have some serious issues that you need to look into.
i hate lazy idiots that charge $100 for 15 minutes of half-assed work and don't do a job right.
be informed of what's going on and look over their shoulders when they are doing the work so that you know you're getting your money's worth. don't be just another sheep in the flock. know what's going on and what you are paying for. hell, even print this out and take it with you if you need some notes. maybe even share it with the kid doing the alignment and teach him a thing or two... 
Originally Posted by (***yotatech***member***)
hi.
the lift and tires are all in. however, i am having a hell of a time with the camber on one side. i have had 3 allignments done since the lift, and not one of the shop is fixing the camber. i realized this after firestone gave me the printout of the readings. twice they have worked on it, and twice they have left it out of wack! this is adjustable by using shims, correct? or...did i mess something up when putting my spacers in? i am confused. not only is the camber out, but the sai on that side is at about 31 degrees, and the included angle is at 33 degrees! ANY suggestions would be greatly appreciated. i am surprised that no one else has had this problem and posted about it.
i am going to call another few shops, but want to verify that the camber can be adjusted, and that the sai and included angle aren't something i can fix easily myself.
thanks!
the lift and tires are all in. however, i am having a hell of a time with the camber on one side. i have had 3 allignments done since the lift, and not one of the shop is fixing the camber. i realized this after firestone gave me the printout of the readings. twice they have worked on it, and twice they have left it out of wack! this is adjustable by using shims, correct? or...did i mess something up when putting my spacers in? i am confused. not only is the camber out, but the sai on that side is at about 31 degrees, and the included angle is at 33 degrees! ANY suggestions would be greatly appreciated. i am surprised that no one else has had this problem and posted about it.
i am going to call another few shops, but want to verify that the camber can be adjusted, and that the sai and included angle aren't something i can fix easily myself.
thanks!
(this is a good reference for each term used and what each one means. before you shell out $100+ for an aligment, learn what the kid is doing to your steering system. http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm)
Intro: we have a solid rear alxe and independent front suspension on every 4runner and truck since 1986. you do NOT need a full 4-wheel alignment on these vehicles since there are NO ADJUSTMENTS for the rear. the only adjustments on them are one the front, and therefore if a "2-wheel alignment" is cheaper at the shop than a 4-wheel alignment, by all means, save your money. below are the basics of any decent "2-wheel alignment" that should be followed to the "T" for every alignment on our toyotas.
"what is involved in an alignment?" three things are the basis for a good alignment:
camber is the "tilt" of the wheel. it either tilts in at the top or tilts in at the bottom. slight tilt in at the top is desirable.
caster is what makes it drive straight on the freeway and keeps the steering tight. notice on a shopping cart how the front wheels will turn in whatever direction you turn the buggy? that's because the contact patch of the wheels trails the pivot point of the steering axis. you want a slight negative caster (contact patch trails the axis of rotation). this makes steering very solid feeling at high speeds - as long as the camber and toe are properly adjusted.
toe - think of it as pigeon toed or crows feet...
its the angle of relation of the two front wheels when looking from above (with the top of the lines being the front of the vehicle - a bird's-eye view). if they are like / \, then the toe is negative or it's sometimes called "Toe-In". if they are like \ /, then the toe is positive and that is sometimes called "Toe-Out". too much of either is bad and will cause VIBRATIONS - no matter what someone else may tell you - BAD TOE CAN AND WILL CAUSE VIBRATIONS LIKE AN OUT-OF-BALANCE WHEEL.most shops don't care to do it correctly, and that's why you get drift, poor highway feel, and vibrations. our 3rd gens are very sensitive to alignment issues, so if it doesn't feel good, then it's out of alignment. when a 3rd gen is done properly, then it feels AWESOME on the road.
The one thing you want to ALWAYS request up-front BEFORE an alignment is done are initial and final printouts of the specs that the alignment machine are reporting. Use this printout as a reference for reviewing the work that was done and make sure that all adjustments are within the recommended TOYOTA specs.
__________________________________________________ _____
steering center - first and foremost, the steering wheel should be rotated to the "center position", the key turned off and the steering wheel locked into position. this will assure that when you go down the road (assuming that everything else is correct) your steering wheel will be centered. this is an annoying pet peeve of mine that i can't STAND when left uncorrected...
Another problem with steering center has to do with the type of roads that are driven on. Most roads are crowned to allow for water drainage you usually drive on the right side of the crown. This may cause the vehicle to drift to the right so that the steering wheel will appear to be off-center to the left on a straight road. The best way to compensate for this is as follows:
If there is a difference in caster, it should be that the left wheel is more negative than the right wheel, but not more than 1/2 degree. Check the specs for the specific recommendations on side-to-side differences.
If there is a difference in camber, then the left wheel should be more positive than the right wheel. Check the specs to see what the allowable difference is.
__________________________________________________ _____
now, on to the technical stuff:
caster is easily adjusted and should be done FIRST. on a 3rd gen, you do that by moving the front and rear lower cam adjustments until you create a situation where the contact patch of the tire is physically behind the axis of rotation created by the upper and lower ball joints.
from there, you adjust the camber. you get the camber set by moving front and rear adjustment cams the same amounts (inward or outward) to keep the caster set, so you have a ever-so-slight tilt inward at the top (1 degree or less usually), then you recheck your camber.
next, worry about the toe. you adjust the toe by turning the adjustment nuts on the steering links (tie end rods). this is a more tedious process and most techs that i have run across don't bother with toe adjustments, even though they are critical in getting a smooth, oscillation-free ride.
***VERY IMPORTANT STEP***
as a final "step" you then go back and check caster again, AND RE-ADJUST. then check camber again, AND RE-ADJUST. finally, check toe again, AND RE-ADJUST. repeat the process until all (3) are in-spec. a proper alignment is an iterative process - not a get-em-in-and-get-em-out job.
*****SUPER IMPORTANT FOR THOSE OF US WHO GO OFFROAD*****
finally, YOU RE-TORQUE EVERYTHING DOWN - especially the DRIVER FRONT and PASSENGER REAR CAMS along with the TIE END ROD LOCK DOWN NUTS- THESE ARE THE MOST CRITICAL. If you don't torque the snot out of these two cam lock-down bolts, every time you go over a heavy bump, the weight of the rig will want to "walk" these two cam lock-down bolts (the geometry tries to turn them to the left and loosen them) and torque the cam so that it spins to the outside, pushing the lower part of the tire farther out than the top. this will screw up all three aspects of the alignment, causing a negative caster, negative camber, and toe-in. alignment shops grease monkeys (more likely kids now-a-days) are NOT going to properly torque these cam lock-down bolts. after an alignment, i take my 18" socket breaker handle and put about 180+ ft-lbs on them to snug them down. not ONCE have they ever been properly tightened after an aligment.
Originally Posted by bamachem
last time i went in for an alignment, the runner was tracking OK, but had a slight pull to the right, and the steering wheel was off center - this was driving home from the freaking alignment shop! after about 300 miles, it was pulling severely to the right, felt loose on the highway and developed a BAD vibration that i felt throught the truck and in the steering wheel. i got underneath and looked - the rear passenger cam adjustment was completely pushed outboard while the front was almost centered. this pushed the caster for that side to the positive, pulled the toe WAY inward, and threw the camber severely inboard. NOT GOOD. it was OBVIOUSLY not properly aligned - not anymore. upon inspection, i found the driver front cam LOOSE. the idgit aligned the truck, but didn't do it properly due to the pull and the off-center steering wheel from the beginning, and to top it off he then didn't torque the cams down properly. the passenger rear and driver front have to be VERY, VERY TIGHT to keep them from self-loosening due to the force of the suspension trying to turn the bolt. on the opposite corners, the suspesion works to tighten the bolts. i use a 18" socket breaker bar to tighten them.
As far as SAI and Included Angle are concerned, you shouldn't have any issues with these as long as everything is installed properly and you don't have any bent or broken parts. If the alignment shop tells you that one of these are out of spec, then you have some serious issues that you need to look into.
i hate lazy idiots that charge $100 for 15 minutes of half-assed work and don't do a job right.
be informed of what's going on and look over their shoulders when they are doing the work so that you know you're getting your money's worth. don't be just another sheep in the flock. know what's going on and what you are paying for. hell, even print this out and take it with you if you need some notes. maybe even share it with the kid doing the alignment and teach him a thing or two...
Originally Posted by KEYWORD SEARCH TERMS
alignment aligned caster camber toe SAI inclined angle off-center offcenter pulls pulled vibration vibrations 4runner tacoma tundra firestone ntb sears problems problem right left thrust angle angles inward outward shop tires wheels balanced balance shimmy oscillation oscillations oscillates
Last edited by bamachem; 03-21-2006 at 06:56 AM.
03-21-2006, 07:21 AM
#6
Contributing Member
Great post Andy!
In my experience, YOU need to take the responsibility for getting the alignment close before taking it to a general service shop for an alignment. Any more, these guys are better described as "Alignment Machine Operators" than alignment technicians. If the alignment is reasonably close, they can get it in based on what the machine tells them. If it's out by a bunch, they can't, as they are not prepared for what a major adjustment of one component will do to the others.
The other option (and what FINALLY corrected the alignment issues on my previous truck) is to take it to an OLD SCHOOL alignment shop. You want to see grease and hand tools, not lasers and mirrors! These people really know alignment and how major adjustments of one factor (camber, caster, toe) will affect the others.
It is amazing what a difference in handling and ride a good alignment can make!
In my experience, YOU need to take the responsibility for getting the alignment close before taking it to a general service shop for an alignment. Any more, these guys are better described as "Alignment Machine Operators" than alignment technicians. If the alignment is reasonably close, they can get it in based on what the machine tells them. If it's out by a bunch, they can't, as they are not prepared for what a major adjustment of one component will do to the others.
The other option (and what FINALLY corrected the alignment issues on my previous truck) is to take it to an OLD SCHOOL alignment shop. You want to see grease and hand tools, not lasers and mirrors! These people really know alignment and how major adjustments of one factor (camber, caster, toe) will affect the others.
It is amazing what a difference in handling and ride a good alignment can make!
03-21-2006, 07:27 AM
#7
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i am going to give firestone one more shot, and then i am going to take it to a place that has NO machines, and do it all with rulers and tape measure. they are the only ones around that i know of that still do it that way. they MUST know allignments to keep it old school.
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03-21-2006, 09:23 AM
#11
Registered User
As a companion to Andy's post... Here's a DIY article on doing an alignment at home:
http://www.automedia.com/Align/It/Yo...cr20021201ay/1
http://www.automedia.com/Align/It/Yo...cr20021201ay/1
03-21-2006, 09:52 AM
#13
Contributing Member
awesome write-up, i think i know why my alignment is off 200 miles after having it done at the stealership (a chrysler "5star" lol, to say the least) time to check the tightness of the bolts and take it back tonight...
"ask again and i'll kill you" lol
"ask again and i'll kill you" lol
03-21-2006, 12:47 PM
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just an update, more for andy, as he helped me earlier.....
i took it to a different firestone shop. called first and made it clear i was not happy with the lack of proper allignment.
they have had it for 4 hours in the bay being worked on. they this is a time consuming allignment and that they should have it done in another 1-2 hours. this makes me happy, as they mentioned needing to mess with the cam bolts and what not to get it right. more than the other place said. so....i will find out in an hour or so if it is fixed.
i took it to a different firestone shop. called first and made it clear i was not happy with the lack of proper allignment.
they have had it for 4 hours in the bay being worked on. they this is a time consuming allignment and that they should have it done in another 1-2 hours. this makes me happy, as they mentioned needing to mess with the cam bolts and what not to get it right. more than the other place said. so....i will find out in an hour or so if it is fixed.
03-21-2006, 12:57 PM
#18
Registered User
Originally Posted by Paul S
What about a thrust angle alignment?
)
03-21-2006, 01:00 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Paul S
What about a thrust angle alignment?
good question though!
(i'm not an alignment specialist or even a tech. heck, i'm not even a professional automobile mechanic, but i did stay at a holiday inn express one night last month! :pat: )
03-21-2006, 03:08 PM
#20
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here is a good bit of info as well.
the shop spent over 3 hours on the allignment today. they got everything perfectly in the middle of the factory specs EXCEPT for caster. they informed me that i need to get the cam kit (shims) from the dealer to get it all 100% perfect. i am waiting for price from trdparts4u on the kit, and it was recommended to have the dealership install the kit, as they will do everything right on, and then firestone will take over with the usual allignments. i am relieved, as the caster is not a crucial player in the wearing down of the tires quickly game.
just an fyi though....shims MAY be needed.
the shop spent over 3 hours on the allignment today. they got everything perfectly in the middle of the factory specs EXCEPT for caster. they informed me that i need to get the cam kit (shims) from the dealer to get it all 100% perfect. i am waiting for price from trdparts4u on the kit, and it was recommended to have the dealership install the kit, as they will do everything right on, and then firestone will take over with the usual allignments. i am relieved, as the caster is not a crucial player in the wearing down of the tires quickly game.
just an fyi though....shims MAY be needed.
