FirstToy

lol,
it was teetering on big but your post put it over the top! It is officially massive!

obscurotron

OK I'm going to hijack this one, just a bit.

First Mish, I feel your pain. Seriously. The arbitration process is not always a failure. Here's my story.

I bought a 2003 V6 ext cab Tacoma SR5/TRD 5 speed in April of 2003. It was fine for the first 6000 miles or so and then developed a weird gnashing/meshing/grinding noise in 1st and 2nd gear under load, during acceleration from a stop. I.e., noise in 1st from the stop and noise in 2nd from 15-22mph. This is NOT a shifting/grinding noise, i.e. syncros, for all you people out there that read every other word of posts and reply with off-point ideas. ;P

I went to arbitration in September asking for a new tranny. I got it. I had it installed in late October. The noise persisted. I took the truck back to the dealership that did the replacement and got a tech to road test w/ me. He heard the noise and outright said it wasn't right. He wasn't sure what to do since the tranny had just been replaced, so he got the FTS guy involved. The FTS guy got in the truck, drove it with the tech and told the tech to replace the flywheel, clutch disc, pressure plate and pilot bearing. The tech did the work and FTS came back for another road test. The work order then says "same noise. no abnormal noise detected".

I have them by the nads. The FTS guy heard the noise, told the tech to do $1000 worth of work (parts/labor), heard the SAME noise and then declared it not abnormal. WTF? He has NO idea what the noise actually is but I have, in WRITING, the flip-flop FTS/Toyota Motor Corp did from "replace parts" to "oh it's normal now". I reopened arbitration to ask for a buyback. I'm hoping this does the trick.

Good luck, I seriously hope you get your money back out of the 4Runner. I'm interested to hear how the decision is rendered. And for me, at least in California, the arbitration is done through a company (in Texas) called NCDS. Is that who supplied the arbitrator for you?

Mish

Yep, it was NCDS and toyota sent the nastiest a-hole to oppose my attorney. This guy did not even twitch when they started my truck and it rattled so bad that people on the lot turned around. Arbitrator was genuinely surprised to hear such knock identified by Toyota as "normal". Toyota guy was also freaked by the noise, however instead of saying something honest and resonable, like "oh my god", he said that this noise is 8 on the scale of 1-10, where 15 would be problematic noise. To the question why there is 15 in 10 point scale he did not answer anything definite, except for playing dumb..... I am waiting on the results, but do not put much hope into it, because NCDS is paid by Toyota, meaning that it is partly "owned" by Toyota. One way, or the other if you loose arbitration you can sue Toyota, where they will be forced to settle sooner, or later and hear California is not very favorable to lemon makers.
I can still feel the tickle in my hand from wanting to knock the lights out of that Toyota rep.
Here is the sound:

Rattle

FirstToy

dude,
even on a crappy video speaker that engine sounds wrong.

Good luck Mish. I know that other manufacturers would be just as big an a-hole to you although that is no consolation right now.

btw Mish,
The video sounds most clear at the beginning when you are standing still at the drivers side fender. Also when you are in the drivers seat area.

Moving the camera around is distracting. Slow movements and stay in one place alot. I'm only suggesting this in case you want to dub it to a videotape to play for future arbitration or whatever.

If you need a high quality sound bite, hire a sound man or rent a DAT recorder and mic. Go somewhere very quiet with no ambient noise (like traffic in the distance) and record away. Transfer to CD and the arbitrators can hear your engine knock on their CD player driving home, so they can experience your pain!

obscurotron

Holy smokes, that's TERRIBLE. Though I woulda thought an exhaust problem myself, obviously you ruled that out.

Dude, I hope they give you back every cent you paid into that thing. That's BS.

As for CA lemon law, what worked for me the last time (I'm a law student) is I looked up CA cases about lemon law issues and cited them chaper and verse of what the court found, what they did (buyer always won) and what the court found a legitimate argument, explanation, etc. NCDS does not follow the CA lemon law here in the proceeding, but they do take it into consideration. Basically, it was a matter of "I'll prove to the arbitrator that if it goes to court, I'll win anyway, so lets save everyone some legal fees and court costs, OK?"

I plan to try that same strategy again, but moreso. And if I do go to court, I'm familiar enough with the system and procedure that I'll represent myself and hammer them that way.

EDGE

General Motors has quietly repurchased dozens of full-sized pickup trucks and SUVs, its most profitable models, after customers complained about knocking noises from the engines, lawyers for the owners said on Friday.

Mish

I believe this is so called "piston slap"?
Adam Krohn is co-founder of Krohn and Moss, law firm I came across in the past

Make no mistake, there will be no recall on the Toyota engine noise, cos it would make Toyota look less perfect to average consumer

EDGE

Yup Piston Slap, I've read about many a members on GM boards saying their engines knocked slightly on cold mornings, their are probably more knocking engines out their but not all customers know or complain about it.

I could have sworn when the 4.7L IForce V8 came out their was problems like piston slap on some

Mish

Well, I just learned that I actually won an arbitration and now Toy has to purchase my lease back.
I guess there is justice in this world after all
I will ask my attorney if I can post arbitration statement later on, because it is very funny, in a good for us way.

I guess this noise in NOT NORMAL after all.

EDGE

Thats great to hear, maybe this will be the 1st step towards realizing that certain V6 engines need to be fixed

So how exactly does it work, do they refund you all the money you paid for the new truck but since it's a lease is it just the money you put up so far.

What are you gonna get to replace the 4Runner

jharris2

Congratulations!! Was thinking about you this afternoon, wondering what you had heard.

FirstToy

I'm so glad everything worked out for you Mish!

Keep us updated on whatever you end up buying!
Best of luck,

Mish

I got approval from my attorney to post what arbitrator wrote about my case, so let me scan it and give you good smiles.
Example is set, so now you can make Toyota fix your cars to run the way $30K vehicle should.

For a new car I am leaning toward used Mercedes ML55, no matter how much it is "not a real off-road 4x4".
I also test drove Subaru WRX and decided that my crazy days of rice burning are over.
Slightly used Acura MDX would also be of an interest as well as BMW X3, however last one is too new and risky.

FirstToy

Mish,
I'll give you fair warning on the ML- they helped contribute to Mercedes lowest approval rating in it's history and also helped put Mercedes way down on the JDP index.
I've been in one (never driven one) and was unimpressed. Close the door and it sounds very tinny. I like the seating position though.

X3 is small and I think you will run into problems. I don't think it's being made in Germany either is it? I don't think it could pull your boat out of the driveway either!

MDX is nice. I like the interior.

Sac State

Patience and perseverance pay off! Good job. You were not happy and that is the bottom line. A sale has to have two happy parties.

Check out the V6 Highlander, ok go ahead and slap me, but they are really cool and what are the odds of two lemons? from Toyota?:pat:

I can vouche for the Subaru. Bought my wife a Forester, before the turbo, '03. Drop dead dependable and for the snow, it rocks. The turbo would be a screamer.

EDGE

I'd go with the slightly used ML55 cause those where built in Germany cause they are in such few numbers, any AMG vehicle is built in the homeland, the 320/350 or 430/500 are built here but since it's coming up on it's last years before a full redesign I would say all the bugs are worked out.

The MDX is rock solid and so is a Pilot but have you considered a V8 4Runner, could always pickup a Pathfinder that to is also gonna get redone

Mish

I was offered to trade my 03 V6 on 04 V8 at the arbitration hearing, Toyota's rep tried every option to avoid buy back.
If I wanted V8 I would have bought one, but I wanted V6 with 4x2 / 4x4 switch and Toyota could not provide one that was well built. I am sure this damn V6 can be adjusted easily, but Toyota would rather take very nasty stand and treat us like dirt instead of spending few bucks per 4Runner. Service departments where I took my truck to get fixed noted the problem, kept the truck and than told me that Toyota strongly advised them against working on this problem, because it is NORMAL to rattle. In other words, if they fix one, they would have to fix thousand (thanks to the Internet), well now they have to buy them back! I felt like knocking Toyota rep. out cold when he heard my truck rattle and said: "this noise level is 8 out of 10 on the scale of normal engines, where bad motor would be 15" my (kick ass) attorney reminded him that the scale was only up to 10 just a second ago....
Arbitrator asked Toyota rep and his little sidekick - service manager to bring another V6 to compare, but they could not find another 03 V6, so arbitrator asked for 04 V6 and Toyota rep. immediately jumped up screaming that this is "completely different car!!!!". Now you know how much effort it took not to give this ĊĊĊĊer a good swing on the face.

About next car choices:
ML55 is my first choice, MDX with Navigation second and 2004 Acura TL third, cos it is so sweeeet!

gman24

Congrads Mish, this is a victory for all who have this problem. Would like to hear as many details as you can give us. Once again, good job! I wonder if they will try to resell that diesel?
Keep the VIN handy to warn others, the internet is a wonderous thing!

Sac State

I am sure it will be resold to some unsuspecting soul. Too bad, will this go on a Carfax report at all? Any kind of reporting agency?

Mish

I will post entire thing shortly.
I am sure it will help to others who are being ran around by Toyota service as we speak.

Thank you for your support.