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the Word on back pressure?

Old 03-28-2007, 11:32 AM
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the Word on back pressure?

I've been noticing a lot of posting concerning exhaust/headers recently. After some searching, most of the info I can find concerning back pressure at the exhaust manifold/head suggests that freeing it up is a great thing.

A buddy of mine said that's only the case at higher rpms, and at lower rpms backpressure helps with torque. Searching I've seen concerning exhaust set-up seems to concur: wider diameter piping plus cat-free setups can sacrifice low-end torque, etc.

I'm hoping to get some definitive science/garage-pseudo-science on this backpressure stuff. Any bites??
Old 03-28-2007, 12:03 PM
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backpressure is bad PERIOD. It doesn't help with anything, ever! Anyone that tells you backpressure helps with anything is WRONG.

Where you get help with lower end torque is by not running the maximum recommended exhaust size

i.e. a 2.4L 4cyl should run 2" or 2.25" for maximum velocity but reduction of backpressure without TOO much flow to eliminate low end torque. 2.5" would work better for top end (to a point of course)

Last edited by chimmike; 03-28-2007 at 12:06 PM.
Old 03-28-2007, 12:14 PM
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The way I understand it, both a more restrictive exhaust and intake flow causes the air to move faster. This means that at low rpms, the spent charge is more fully exhausted and the intake fills the chamber more completely with air. If you can picture in your mind a slow-moving piston with varying orifice sizes, you can see how a smaller opening causes the air to be pulled harder into the chamber.

Obviously at higher rpms restrictive flows are bad for power.
Old 03-28-2007, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by chimmike
backpressure is bad PERIOD. It doesn't help with anything, ever! Anyone that tells you backpressure helps with anything is WRONG.

Where you get help with lower end torque is by not running the maximum recommended exhaust size

i.e. a 2.4L 4cyl should run 2" or 2.25" for maximum velocity but reduction of backpressure without TOO much flow to eliminate low end torque. 2.5" would work better for top end (to a point of course)

"Where you get help with lower end torque is by not running the maximum recommended exhaust size "
um, yeah, because you need some backpressure. why do you think you lose torque with too big of exhaust? you contradict yourself from one line to another
Old 03-28-2007, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mochester
"Where you get help with lower end torque is by not running the maximum recommended exhaust size "
um, yeah, because you need some backpressure. why do you think you lose torque with too big of exhaust? you contradict yourself from one line to another
It's not a contradiction, the larger pipe or I should say too large a pipe will actually increase the backpressure. The best explaintion I've seen on this was by Gadget, but basicly if the pipe is too big the flow cools off quickly and slows down creating more backpressure at lower rpms.
Old 03-28-2007, 02:17 PM
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Here's Gadget's explaination from TTORA:
Every time I hear this crap that our engines need back pressure I just shake my head. It is just the dumbest thing around. The Otto cycle engine does not need any backpressure. In fact the less backpressure the better. A suction in the exhaust is even better as it will help pull exhaust out of the cylinder so the engine will not have to use power to push it out.

Check this out, airplanes fly. They do this by managing flow dynamics also known as fluid dynamics. When you increase the velocity of a fluid its pressure decreases. When this decrease in pressure is above the wing, the pressure under the wing pushes up lifting the plane into the air. When you decrease the velocity its pressure increases. When air is drawn through a venturi in a carb the pressure drops and that is what draws the gas out of the bowl and into the air stream. If you look at a venturi you would think that it is a big restriction, but it causes the pressure to drop. A venturi is basically an airplane wing in a circle.

Now with an exhaust system you want the lowest pressure you can get so the engine works less hard pushing the exhaust out. So, it is all about flow management. A small pipe will cause the flow to be faster and it travels down that pipe in pulses. The faster it goes the less the pressure is especially after the pulse wave. If you get to big of a pipe the velocity slows down and the pressure increases. So a large diameter pipe can in fact result in a higher pressure in the pipe and cause the engine to work harder to push out the exhaust and you loose torque.

Do you want a visual aid? If so, light two candles. Place them about 6? apart. Now blow between them. You will notice that the flames lean toward the air that you are blowing between the candles. This is because the pressure between the candles dropped and the higher-pressure air is rushing to move toward the low-pressure air pushing the flames over as it passes through.

Now there are always compromises. Your engine runs at different RPMs and different loads and you will want the smallest diameter pipe possible without restricting high flow at high RPM and loads. At some point a small diameter pipe will become flow restrictive and will need to be larger, but the trade off is loss of low load velocity and increased pressure and you perceive this as loss of low RPM torque. A short straight pipe is best but you have packaging problems. If you have to have bends, the bends should be a larger diameter then the straight sections because you want the flow to slow down to reduce turbulence in the bend, but this really adds huge cost to the system. Now if you really want something slick, have all your bends take on the NACA duct peanut shape for the best possible flow. Mandrel bending prevents a smaller diameter then the straight and is usually the best you get.

It is all about managing flow velocities without becoming flow restrictive.

With headers designs, if you can decide what RPM you want the most power, you can tune your primary tube length so that the lower pressure portion of the pulse wave of one cylinder is passing the end of the primary tube that has the exhaust valve that is just opening so that primary tube will have the lowest pressure possible. This however can only be tuned to a specific RPM range and you also have to worry about packaging problems. Usually headers with big fat primary tubes will perform worse then ones with smaller tubes.

Now when you hear someone say that you need back pressure for low RPM torque they are exactly opposite of what is really going on. You want the least pressure possible in the pipe at low RPM (or any RPM) and larger pipe increases pressure because the velocity is much lower.

None of this applies to turbo systems. That is a whole other chapter on exhaust theory.
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Old 03-28-2007, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by engnbldr
But now we need to think about the exhaust system. Improving the exhaust system is number one as far as freeing up usuable power, it doesn't "make" any at all. But the factory needed a quiet, smooth, and responsive engine because the driver might be a little old lady going to the store in Hawaii, or a young fellow driving around at 5000 ft altitude in Colorado. So they compensated for this, and for ground clearence on some vehicles.

The best setup cost wise we have found is to use the excellent factory exhaust manifold, then increase the pipe size to 2" all the way to the muffler, yep, the cat, too. Then we increase again to 2 1/4" on exit all the way back.

This creates a bit of directional flow and frees up power, it fairly quiet and smooth.
This comes from a popular thread about 22r/re's:
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showfl...5&o=14&fpart=1

I was interpreting this to mean that leaving the stock manifold leaves some good back-pressure, but gently opening the exhaust wider creates a directional flow compensating for the initial back pressure. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking here, and the key word is "best setup cost wise." And the lack of header in that write-up is due to cost.

Thoughts?
Old 03-28-2007, 03:15 PM
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Well I hate to speak for EB, he's forgotten more than I'll ever know. But maybe cost and the extra problems that come with headers.
Old 03-28-2007, 03:29 PM
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back pressure is bad. you dont want it. however, when someone says you need "backpressure", what they usually mean is you need exhaust gas velocity, which in turn helps with exhaust scavenging (sucking). the smaller the diameter of the pipe, the faster the gasses flow through. the size of pipe you use depends primarily on engine size and whether or not your turbo.

in my experience, as has been stated in this thread already, the best way to free up power from exhaust is by minimizing the amount of bends and restrictions to flow, in other words, the straighter the exhaust, the better, the less mufflers and cats, the better. increasing ehxuast diameter is not the best idea unless you are turbo

Last edited by alexe; 03-28-2007 at 03:33 PM.
Old 03-28-2007, 04:00 PM
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thank you. Again, anyone who says you need backpressure is wrong.

Velocity is good. The faster the gas can exit wtihout lingering, the better.

Obviously if you use TOO small an exhaust it will be restrictive and bad. You must find the optimum size for n/a. If you run a cat and resonator and muffler that's a good time to run slightly larger piping due to the restrictions you're adding.

For turbo, Bigger is always better, period.
Old 03-28-2007, 05:03 PM
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I'll say it, and no it's not wrong: You may need some back pressure. You risk burning the exhaust valves and actually decreasing the mileage without a little back pressure. What you don't want is excessive back pressure.

The reason you *may* need some back pressure (and this really depends on the overlap in your cam) is that during the combustion cycle, both the intack and exhaust valves are open at the same time. Without a little back pressure, raw fuel can pass directly thru the cylinder and into the exhaust ports. This lowers the fuel economy and can cause damage to the exhaust valves because there is now a flame in the exhaust port from the passed fuel.

All of this depends on the valve timing, the amount of valve overlap and the size of the exhaust headers. It's not a simple "one size fits all" answer.
Old 03-28-2007, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by InternetRoadkill
I'll say it, and no it's not wrong: You may need some back pressure. You risk burning the exhaust valves and actually decreasing the mileage without a little back pressure. What you don't want is excessive back pressure.

The reason you *may* need some back pressure (and this really depends on the overlap in your cam) is that during the combustion cycle, both the intack and exhaust valves are open at the same time. Without a little back pressure, raw fuel can pass directly thru the cylinder and into the exhaust ports. This lowers the fuel economy and can cause damage to the exhaust valves because there is now a flame in the exhaust port from the passed fuel.

All of this depends on the valve timing, the amount of valve overlap and the size of the exhaust headers. It's not a simple "one size fits all" answer.
So are you saying that sometimes a plugged up exhaust is good?

Last edited by mt_goat; 03-28-2007 at 05:31 PM.
Old 03-28-2007, 05:33 PM
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No, I'm saying that depending on your valve timing and other considerations, you may need some back pressure to prevent the cylinder from being over scavenged which can cause the incoming fuel-air mixture to be pulled into the exhaust ports.
Old 03-28-2007, 06:36 PM
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roadkill, I think in your instance the only time that applies is when running an open header. If you're running a full exhaust, that does not become an issue as there's not enough scavenging to cause the issue.
Old 03-28-2007, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by InternetRoadkill
No, I'm saying that depending on your valve timing and other considerations, you may need some back pressure to prevent the cylinder from being over scavenged which can cause the incoming fuel-air mixture to be pulled into the exhaust ports.
Maybe that's what's happening in this video?
http://www.break.com/index/ford_recalls_trucks.html
Old 03-28-2007, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chimmike
roadkill, I think in your instance the only time that applies is when running an open header. If you're running a full exhaust, that does not become an issue as there's not enough scavenging to cause the issue.
Maybe. I would suspect that a cat converter provides more back pressure than necessary. But as I mentioned, it really depends on your setup.

Flowmaster has a nice write-up on the effects of back pressure:

http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/backpressure.html

The article mentions that converting to a high-flow exhaust may require changing the cam to reduce the amount of valve overlap for best results.
Old 03-28-2007, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by chimmike
roadkill, I think in your instance the only time that applies is when running an open header. If you're running a full exhaust, that does not become an issue as there's not enough scavenging to cause the issue.
so are you saying that running no piping after the headers can cause problems? because right now im just running straight off my headers with no piping connected to them (because the shops here arnt the best and have been unable to get it piped up, not because i want it that way)
Old 03-28-2007, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mt_goat
Here's Gadget's explaination from TTORA:
ok, i have a couple problems with this guy's argument that bigger exhaust = more pressure. first, his argument about the candles makes no sense, and does not relate to exhaust gasses moving through a pipe at all. second, i want to see some sort of test that proves that bigger exhaust pipe = more pressure. sure, you can rationalize it in your mind by saying that the air moves slower through a bigger pipe. but i need numbers. i need some sort of barometer device inside different diameters of exhaust pipes. because that explanation doesn't work for me.

the exhaust gasses are only moving slower in a bigger pipe, anyways, BECAUSE there is less pressure forcing them to exit the pipe to make room for more exhaust. in fact, yeah dude, i don't buy it at all
there is no way bigger exhaust equals more pressure. just because the gas moves slower doesn't mean there is more pressure. the speed of the exhaust gasses moving through the pipe is dependent on the pressure forcing it through the pipe, not the other way around. this guy has it totally backwards and you bought it

think about it. get different diameters of pipe and blow through them. from really skinny, like the size of one of those tiny coffee straws, to really big, like an inch in diameter or bigger. tell me which has more backpressure. he is right about the gasses moving slower in a bigger pipe. but he is totally wrong in assuming that it means there is more pressure

back pressure is good and without it low end torque is lost, period

Last edited by mochester; 03-28-2007 at 09:30 PM. Reason: clarification
Old 03-29-2007, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by notanymore
so are you saying that running no piping after the headers can cause problems? because right now im just running straight off my headers with no piping connected to them (because the shops here arnt the best and have been unable to get it piped up, not because i want it that way)
yes, it most certainly can, you can burn your valves out.

As for a high flow exhaust causing the same thing on motors, i've never seen it happen, ever. There just isn't enough overlap on stock cams or even aftermarket cams to cause this issue on a vehicle with a full exhaust setup.
Old 03-29-2007, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mochester
back pressure is good and

No, backpressure is not good, EVER. Backpressure does not make torque. Backpressure hurts power AND torque.

Optimum velocity produces torque AND horsepower. In order to achieve optimum velocity, you must eliminate backpressure as best you can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_pressure

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question395.htm

http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/backpressure.html

http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8179

NONE of those resources say backpressure makes torque, and NONE of them say backpressure is good.

So, educate yourself. Backpressure does NOT make torque.

Last edited by chimmike; 03-29-2007 at 05:25 AM.

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