Truck won't start. Please read before giving me hell....
12-08-2013, 04:28 PM
#41
The truck pop starts just fine.
I went yesterday to a junkyard and got a replacement out of an 87 Runner. It starter just fine and I went off to the alignment shop. It started fine when they pulled into their shop and fine when they pulled it back out. Three starts in a row....things were looking up. Then it failed on me yet again when I got in to leave. We pop started it and I was off back home. I've talked to a guy that worked for Toyota for years ( to the point he could take my truck apart bolt-by-bolt, lay all the pieces out on a table and then put it back together) and he said he's never heard of this problem. I asked if it could be an issue with not using a Toyota brand starter and he said it's possible. He said, based on what I told him, if he was working on it he would put a Toyota starter on it and send the others back. So I guess that's my next step.
I've checked the flexplate and it's not warped. There are no burrs on the mounting surface and I've cleaned the surface with acetone. It's as smooth as a baby's butt. The mounting stud and bolt line up fine so it doesn't appear to be an issue with either of them being bent or out of wack.
I took the teeth out of the junkyard starter and put them on a bench grinder a little to try and give them a little more angle to slide into the teeth of the flexplate hopefully. Wellllllllllll that didn't work, but it was worth a shot. So this is where I am: wiring is good, battery is strong, mounting surface is straight and clean, flexplate is straight, motor isn't locked up. This is the 4th aftermarket starter that I've tried. The first burnt up. The second, third and fourth don't seem to line up right with the flexplate. All 3 of them will bench test just fine, but they don't mate up with the starter teeth quite right. It's an aftermarket flexplate, but it worked fine with the original starter for a year and a half before it went bad so I don't believe it's an issue with the flexplate.
I went yesterday to a junkyard and got a replacement out of an 87 Runner. It starter just fine and I went off to the alignment shop. It started fine when they pulled into their shop and fine when they pulled it back out. Three starts in a row....things were looking up. Then it failed on me yet again when I got in to leave. We pop started it and I was off back home. I've talked to a guy that worked for Toyota for years ( to the point he could take my truck apart bolt-by-bolt, lay all the pieces out on a table and then put it back together) and he said he's never heard of this problem. I asked if it could be an issue with not using a Toyota brand starter and he said it's possible. He said, based on what I told him, if he was working on it he would put a Toyota starter on it and send the others back. So I guess that's my next step.
I've checked the flexplate and it's not warped. There are no burrs on the mounting surface and I've cleaned the surface with acetone. It's as smooth as a baby's butt. The mounting stud and bolt line up fine so it doesn't appear to be an issue with either of them being bent or out of wack.
I took the teeth out of the junkyard starter and put them on a bench grinder a little to try and give them a little more angle to slide into the teeth of the flexplate hopefully. Wellllllllllll that didn't work, but it was worth a shot. So this is where I am: wiring is good, battery is strong, mounting surface is straight and clean, flexplate is straight, motor isn't locked up. This is the 4th aftermarket starter that I've tried. The first burnt up. The second, third and fourth don't seem to line up right with the flexplate. All 3 of them will bench test just fine, but they don't mate up with the starter teeth quite right. It's an aftermarket flexplate, but it worked fine with the original starter for a year and a half before it went bad so I don't believe it's an issue with the flexplate.
12-08-2013, 05:42 PM
#42
Still huh... well all the concentration has been on the mating of the starter and flexplate.... is there anything that we all are missing? at this point I would take the tranny off and observe the engagement of the starter and flexplate and see how it fails and what it look a like. Perhaps a rudamentary method but I lile it. Also maybe the aftermaket flex plate isnt made to sp3c.. and u were just fortunate it kept working with the old starter..
12-08-2013, 06:04 PM
#44
Still huh... well all the concentration has been on the mating of the starter and flexplate.... is there anything that we all are missing? at this point I would take the tranny off and observe the engagement of the starter and flexplate and see how it fails and what it look a like. Perhaps a rudamentary method but I lile it. Also maybe the aftermaket flex plate isnt made to sp3c.. and u were just fortunate it kept working with the old starter..
I suppose there's a slight possibility that the flexplate is the problem, but I just can't bring myself to believe that I was only lucky to have it start several times a day, every day for a year and a half. The probability of that just seems too close to nothing for me to justify thinking there would be a problem with it. I already know the flexplate isn't warped, it's tight and there's no wobble (like it's off-center).
I know there are 2 different starters for my truck: a 1.0kW and a 1.4kW model. The 1.4kW starter is for cold weather applications. I don't know if that means it has more turning power (as in RPMs, not torque) or not, but I don't think that would fix the problem anyway. The problem is the teeth not lining up correctly. It doesn't look like the teeth are coming out of the starter enough to even start spinning yet. When the starters have engaged correctly they've turned the motor just fine so I feel like the starter has plenty of cranking power. The only think I can think is the teeth on the factory starter are different than the aftermarket ones, but I don't know for sure. Anybody have a Toyota brand starter on their 22re with a manual transmission they're willing to take pictures of???
12-08-2013, 06:07 PM
#45
So, I had this exact same problem with about 6 crappy aftermarket starters Oreilly, Autozone, Napa etc. They all worked fine on my 89 4r ONCE. Then, 2 days later, they just would not start. There was clicking and the starter was hot as hell (so obviously it was getting current)
I ended up just rebuilding the factory toyota starter and have never had a single problem since. Something is REALLY wrong with all of the aftermarket starters you can buy,almost like the actual teeth on the starter are the wrong pitch and cause the flywheel to jam. I'm going on 4 months without a single hiccup on the rebuilt factory starter-- this is after 2 months of fussing around with every single aftermarket unit I could find. It is my opinion that they are all junk if they are not factory toyota units.
I ended up just rebuilding the factory toyota starter and have never had a single problem since. Something is REALLY wrong with all of the aftermarket starters you can buy,almost like the actual teeth on the starter are the wrong pitch and cause the flywheel to jam. I'm going on 4 months without a single hiccup on the rebuilt factory starter-- this is after 2 months of fussing around with every single aftermarket unit I could find. It is my opinion that they are all junk if they are not factory toyota units.
12-08-2013, 06:26 PM
#46
So, I had this exact same problem with about 6 crappy aftermarket starters Oreilly, Autozone, Napa etc. They all worked fine on my 89 4r ONCE. Then, 2 days later, they just would not start. There was clicking and the starter was hot as hell (so obviously it was getting current)
I ended up just rebuilding the factory toyota starter and have never had a single problem since. Something is REALLY wrong with all of the aftermarket starters you can buy,almost like the actual teeth on the starter are the wrong pitch and cause the flywheel to jam. I'm going on 4 months without a single hiccup on the rebuilt factory starter-- this is after 2 months of fussing around with every single aftermarket unit I could find. It is my opinion that they are all junk if they are not factory toyota units.
I ended up just rebuilding the factory toyota starter and have never had a single problem since. Something is REALLY wrong with all of the aftermarket starters you can buy,almost like the actual teeth on the starter are the wrong pitch and cause the flywheel to jam. I'm going on 4 months without a single hiccup on the rebuilt factory starter-- this is after 2 months of fussing around with every single aftermarket unit I could find. It is my opinion that they are all junk if they are not factory toyota units.
Cyberman:
I suppose the teeth on the flexplate could have the wrong pitch too, but do you think I would have noticed it before now with the old factory starter?
12-09-2013, 05:55 AM
#47
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Well, I just experienced this myself, and then realized that I forgot to ask one question.
How cold is it outside?
I started my truck up this morning, and left it run for a good half hour, while I cleaned all the snow and ice off of it. I then drove to the post office and shut it off.
When I came back out, I went to turn it over, and nothing, other than the volt meter dropping, like it was drawing power somewhere.
What fixes this is to get a rod or something (I used the tire iron), and tap on the housing of the starter.
After two attempts, it started right up. BTW, I still have the OEM starter.
How cold is it outside?
I started my truck up this morning, and left it run for a good half hour, while I cleaned all the snow and ice off of it. I then drove to the post office and shut it off.
When I came back out, I went to turn it over, and nothing, other than the volt meter dropping, like it was drawing power somewhere.
What fixes this is to get a rod or something (I used the tire iron), and tap on the housing of the starter.
After two attempts, it started right up. BTW, I still have the OEM starter.
12-09-2013, 06:09 AM
#48
Well, I just experienced this myself, and then realized that I forgot to ask one question.
How cold is it outside?
I started my truck up this morning, and left it run for a good half hour, while I cleaned all the snow and ice off of it. I then drove to the post office and shut it off.
When I came back out, I went to turn it over, and nothing, other than the volt meter dropping, like it was drawing power somewhere.
What fixes this is to get a rod or something (I used the tire iron), and tap on the housing of the starter.
After two attempts, it started right up. BTW, I still have the OEM starter.
How cold is it outside?
I started my truck up this morning, and left it run for a good half hour, while I cleaned all the snow and ice off of it. I then drove to the post office and shut it off.
When I came back out, I went to turn it over, and nothing, other than the volt meter dropping, like it was drawing power somewhere.
What fixes this is to get a rod or something (I used the tire iron), and tap on the housing of the starter.
After two attempts, it started right up. BTW, I still have the OEM starter.
12-09-2013, 06:13 AM
#49
Well, I hate to hear that anyone else has had to go thru this, but at the same time I'm glad because I'm getting good advice from people from their experience at the same time. You're giving me hope that a new factory starter will fix the problem, but I really don't want to get my hopes up yet.
Cyberman:
I suppose the teeth on the flexplate could have the wrong pitch too, but do you think I would have noticed it before now with the old factory starter?
Cyberman:
I suppose the teeth on the flexplate could have the wrong pitch too, but do you think I would have noticed it before now with the old factory starter?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of aftermarket products in general.
12-09-2013, 01:15 PM
#50
Well, sorry But I disagree. I agree to the part that the Toyota originals are much better, but I disagree that the aftermarket ones don't meet the same minimum requirements and are of enough quality that they work with an otherwise good system. The key here I think is the car 'system' being in good working order. Perhaps the tolerances on an aftermarket brand are not as tight and then the tolerances of the aftermarket flex plate isn't as tight and then the whole car is been banged around by a dear, etc etc.. I think all of these things add up to the apparent issue of alignment.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of aftermarket products in general.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of aftermarket products in general.
12-09-2013, 01:31 PM
#51
I agree that some parts are just junk. Some parts don't have to go through any testing to meet any standards even. But throughout the years I have used plenty of aftermarket parts on my cars that last for tens of thousands of miles. For these companies it's so cheap to make a part that they rather replace under warranty than spend the money on quality assurance. So they may have a higher number of failed parts.
In your case, I find it hard to believe, albeit I am not saying I rule it out completely. I would just be very surprised that at this point a factory starter is what will make the difference.
Heck, in SoCal it is so difficult to find any good junkyard parts for these engines at the u-pick parts yards, and the other yards sell them for more than a new aftermarket one costs that it's worth taking a risk on the aftermarket one which atleast has warranty.
In your case, I find it hard to believe, albeit I am not saying I rule it out completely. I would just be very surprised that at this point a factory starter is what will make the difference.
Heck, in SoCal it is so difficult to find any good junkyard parts for these engines at the u-pick parts yards, and the other yards sell them for more than a new aftermarket one costs that it's worth taking a risk on the aftermarket one which atleast has warranty.
12-09-2013, 03:09 PM
#52
Registered User
I prefer not to take a risk with aftermarket parts, I too have broken cheap cv axles, a garbage jobber alternator, starters that don't even last 2 years, among other things, when you are broken down and it's nasty outside, you quickly forget how great you felt because you saved $$ on sub-standard parts.
If it was my truck, I'd get the oem starter.
The truck pop starts just fine.
I went yesterday to a junkyard and got a replacement out of an 87 Runner. It starter just fine and I went off to the alignment shop. It started fine when they pulled into their shop and fine when they pulled it back out. Three starts in a row....things were looking up. Then it failed on me yet again when I got in to leave. We pop started it and I was off back home. I've talked to a guy that worked for Toyota for years ( to the point he could take my truck apart bolt-by-bolt, lay all the pieces out on a table and then put it back together) and he said he's never heard of this problem. I asked if it could be an issue with not using a Toyota brand starter and he said it's possible. He said, based on what I told him, if he was working on it he would put a Toyota starter on it and send the others back. So I guess that's my next step.
I've checked the flexplate and it's not warped. There are no burrs on the mounting surface and I've cleaned the surface with acetone. It's as smooth as a baby's butt. The mounting stud and bolt line up fine so it doesn't appear to be an issue with either of them being bent or out of wack.
I took the teeth out of the junkyard starter and put them on a bench grinder a little to try and give them a little more angle to slide into the teeth of the flexplate hopefully. Wellllllllllll that didn't work, but it was worth a shot. So this is where I am: wiring is good, battery is strong, mounting surface is straight and clean, flexplate is straight, motor isn't locked up. This is the 4th aftermarket starter that I've tried. The first burnt up. The second, third and fourth don't seem to line up right with the flexplate. All 3 of them will bench test just fine, but they don't mate up with the starter teeth quite right. It's an aftermarket flexplate, but it worked fine with the original starter for a year and a half before it went bad so I don't believe it's an issue with the flexplate.
I went yesterday to a junkyard and got a replacement out of an 87 Runner. It starter just fine and I went off to the alignment shop. It started fine when they pulled into their shop and fine when they pulled it back out. Three starts in a row....things were looking up. Then it failed on me yet again when I got in to leave. We pop started it and I was off back home. I've talked to a guy that worked for Toyota for years ( to the point he could take my truck apart bolt-by-bolt, lay all the pieces out on a table and then put it back together) and he said he's never heard of this problem. I asked if it could be an issue with not using a Toyota brand starter and he said it's possible. He said, based on what I told him, if he was working on it he would put a Toyota starter on it and send the others back. So I guess that's my next step.
I've checked the flexplate and it's not warped. There are no burrs on the mounting surface and I've cleaned the surface with acetone. It's as smooth as a baby's butt. The mounting stud and bolt line up fine so it doesn't appear to be an issue with either of them being bent or out of wack.
I took the teeth out of the junkyard starter and put them on a bench grinder a little to try and give them a little more angle to slide into the teeth of the flexplate hopefully. Wellllllllllll that didn't work, but it was worth a shot. So this is where I am: wiring is good, battery is strong, mounting surface is straight and clean, flexplate is straight, motor isn't locked up. This is the 4th aftermarket starter that I've tried. The first burnt up. The second, third and fourth don't seem to line up right with the flexplate. All 3 of them will bench test just fine, but they don't mate up with the starter teeth quite right. It's an aftermarket flexplate, but it worked fine with the original starter for a year and a half before it went bad so I don't believe it's an issue with the flexplate.
12-09-2013, 04:12 PM
#53
I ordered one today. I got a Toyota starter online for $113 shipped. I think that's a good price considering the local dealership wanted almost $250! Oh, and the NAPA starter I have sitting on the workbench right now was $92.
On a side note, I've found some really good prices for OEM parts after quite a bit of searching. Every once in a while I'll get a few stock part numbers together and do some searching. I've come up with a simple spreadsheet that has part names/numbers and prices from several places. If anybody has any need for part numbers and prices let me know and I'll be glad to send you the spreadsheet. It's the least I can do to repay the help I've gotten from all you guys since I joined. Keep in mind tho, all these part numbers are for an 89 pickup with a 22re. Most of them should fit similar years/models, but you'll need to verify just to be sure.
On a side note, I've found some really good prices for OEM parts after quite a bit of searching. Every once in a while I'll get a few stock part numbers together and do some searching. I've come up with a simple spreadsheet that has part names/numbers and prices from several places. If anybody has any need for part numbers and prices let me know and I'll be glad to send you the spreadsheet. It's the least I can do to repay the help I've gotten from all you guys since I joined. Keep in mind tho, all these part numbers are for an 89 pickup with a 22re. Most of them should fit similar years/models, but you'll need to verify just to be sure.
12-09-2013, 04:13 PM
#54
Registered User
I ordered one today. I got a Toyota starter online for $113 shipped. I think that's a good price considering the local dealership wanted almost $250! Oh, and the NAPA starter I have sitting on the workbench right now was $92.
On a side note, I've found some really good prices for OEM parts after quite a bit of searching. Every once in a while I'll get a few stock part numbers together and do some searching. I've come up with a simple spreadsheet that has part names/numbers and prices from several places. If anybody has any need for part numbers and prices let me know and I'll be glad to send you the spreadsheet. It's the least I can do to repay the help I've gotten from all you guys since I joined. Keep in mind tho, all these part numbers are for an 89 pickup with a 22re. Most of them should fit similar years/models, but you'll need to verify just to be sure.
On a side note, I've found some really good prices for OEM parts after quite a bit of searching. Every once in a while I'll get a few stock part numbers together and do some searching. I've come up with a simple spreadsheet that has part names/numbers and prices from several places. If anybody has any need for part numbers and prices let me know and I'll be glad to send you the spreadsheet. It's the least I can do to repay the help I've gotten from all you guys since I joined. Keep in mind tho, all these part numbers are for an 89 pickup with a 22re. Most of them should fit similar years/models, but you'll need to verify just to be sure.
12-10-2013, 08:29 AM
#55
I'm very curious where you got that good of a price on a factory starter. My girlfriend needs one for her truck, so if you could provide the info that would be awesome!
12-19-2013, 04:20 AM
#56
so here's the latest:
Last night I pulled the transmission so I could get a better look at things. I took the bell housing off the transmission and reinstalled it on the motor so I could hook the starter back up and be able to see it from the inside. I had a buddy bump the starter solennoid with a jumper wire (with the main battery cable disconnected from the starter). After a few cycles the bendix started hanging up on the flexplate and did it every time after that. I could reach in a push it back with my fingers, but it would go right back as soon as power was applied to the solenoid.
Then I did the test again, this time with the battery cable connected to the starter. I wanted to see if I could duplicate the problem with the motor turning. If you do this, just make sure you leave the key out of the ignition so the motor can't start. I couldn't replicate the problem.
The flexplate looks fine. It's not loose, the teeth look good, there was no wobble when it was being turned by the starter so I don't believe it's warped or bent. The only thing that looked suspicious to me was that it seemed like the starter was just a little too close to the flexplate and when the bendix tried to pull back away from the flexplate it couldn't. Maybe the teeth surfaces have too much friction to slide apart? I don't know. I'm pulling the flexplate off tonight to have a better look at it. Any thoughts from anybody?
Last night I pulled the transmission so I could get a better look at things. I took the bell housing off the transmission and reinstalled it on the motor so I could hook the starter back up and be able to see it from the inside. I had a buddy bump the starter solennoid with a jumper wire (with the main battery cable disconnected from the starter). After a few cycles the bendix started hanging up on the flexplate and did it every time after that. I could reach in a push it back with my fingers, but it would go right back as soon as power was applied to the solenoid.
Then I did the test again, this time with the battery cable connected to the starter. I wanted to see if I could duplicate the problem with the motor turning. If you do this, just make sure you leave the key out of the ignition so the motor can't start. I couldn't replicate the problem.
The flexplate looks fine. It's not loose, the teeth look good, there was no wobble when it was being turned by the starter so I don't believe it's warped or bent. The only thing that looked suspicious to me was that it seemed like the starter was just a little too close to the flexplate and when the bendix tried to pull back away from the flexplate it couldn't. Maybe the teeth surfaces have too much friction to slide apart? I don't know. I'm pulling the flexplate off tonight to have a better look at it. Any thoughts from anybody?
12-19-2013, 07:25 AM
#57
You know what, a mickey mouse fix comes to mind if all else fails. It's not kosher, but as a last resort I believe it may work. The bottom bolt holding the starter in place goes all the way through. To give yourself slightly more space between the starter gear and the flexplate, you can put a smaller diameter bolt THROUGH the current bottom bolt hole (with a nut) and this will allow you to move the bottom end of the starter further out away from the flexplate. Good part about this fix is that its very cheap and reversible. Perhaps you can do this just to test even if that would solve the problem.
If tolerances are tight enough the tiniest of changes in the size of either or both the flexplate and starter dimensions may cause this issue... if i'm picturing it correctly.
Now, to solve my own problem with getting my 4runner started after the rebuild ... damn no spark condition!
If tolerances are tight enough the tiniest of changes in the size of either or both the flexplate and starter dimensions may cause this issue... if i'm picturing it correctly.
Now, to solve my own problem with getting my 4runner started after the rebuild ... damn no spark condition!
12-19-2013, 08:47 AM
#58
[QUOTE=Gevo;52150646]You know what, a mickey mouse fix comes to mind if all else fails. It's not kosher, but as a last resort I believe it may work. The bottom bolt holding the starter in place goes all the way through. To give yourself slightly more space between the starter gear and the flexplate, you can put a smaller diameter bolt THROUGH the current bottom bolt hole (with a nut) and this will allow you to move the bottom end of the starter further out away from the flexplate. Good part about this fix is that its very cheap and reversible. Perhaps you can do this just to test even if that would solve the problem.
If tolerances are tight enough the tiniest of changes in the size of either or both the flexplate and starter dimensions may cause this issue... if i'm picturing it correctly. QUOTE]
That may work, temporarily at least. It would depend on how much play there is in the starter hole that is cut in the motor backing plate. If I remember correctly it wasn't much play in it tho.
If tolerances are tight enough the tiniest of changes in the size of either or both the flexplate and starter dimensions may cause this issue... if i'm picturing it correctly. QUOTE]
That may work, temporarily at least. It would depend on how much play there is in the starter hole that is cut in the motor backing plate. If I remember correctly it wasn't much play in it tho.
12-26-2013, 05:52 PM
#59
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So what ended up happening? I am in my own starter hell right now (see the 84/85 section) and have similar problems. Did the new starter solve the issue. Please let us know!
12-26-2013, 06:32 PM
#60
Unfortunately, no. I'm holding on to the new OEM starter and returning the NAPA starter and I'm also going to send the starter I got from the junkyard off so I can get the core charge back on the new OEM one. I'll recoup $122 of what I've spent by doing that and I'll stick with the OEM starter I got online.
Meanwhile, I've checked the flexplate and couldn't see anything wrong with it with my naked eye. I've retapped the starter mounting bolt holes in the bell housing to make sure they weren't stripped out or messed up in any way. The bell housing isn't messed up.
This is my theory: last summer when I replaced the flexplate there wasn't an issue because the teeth on the original starter were worn down enough to not cause an issue and bind with the new flexplate. Since the old starter went bad it was replaced (obviously) with new starters and they weren't worn down enough to not cause issues with the teeth on the new flexplate. The teeth on the aftermarket flexplate look like they're cut differently than an OEM part so I think the problem lies in the way the teeth are cut on the current flexplate. If this doesn't work then it's going to the shop. Nothing is bent, cracked or broken. I don't know what else to do or what it could be.
I've ordered a new flexplate from LowRangeOffRoad.com last week and it should be here next week. Shipping takes a little longer due to the holidays and also because it has to be shipped all the way to Virginia. I wanted to get an OEM plate, but the cheapest one I could find was over $250 and I just can't do that. The one I ordered from Low Range OffRoad was $93 shipped and after reading as many reviews as I could find I felt confident that I wouldn't have a problem with it. I've also ordered replacement shifter seats from Marlin Crawler for both the transmission and transfer case shifters. They were pretty bad so I figure now's a good a time as any to upgrade them. So while I'm waiting on new parts I taken care of a few other things. I've deleted both the EGR and PAIR valve systems. I've had the plates for a while so i finally got around to it. It's a lot easier access to the back of the head while the transmission is out. I also cleaned the coolant valve on the bottom of the throttle body also.
Meanwhile, I've checked the flexplate and couldn't see anything wrong with it with my naked eye. I've retapped the starter mounting bolt holes in the bell housing to make sure they weren't stripped out or messed up in any way. The bell housing isn't messed up.
This is my theory: last summer when I replaced the flexplate there wasn't an issue because the teeth on the original starter were worn down enough to not cause an issue and bind with the new flexplate. Since the old starter went bad it was replaced (obviously) with new starters and they weren't worn down enough to not cause issues with the teeth on the new flexplate. The teeth on the aftermarket flexplate look like they're cut differently than an OEM part so I think the problem lies in the way the teeth are cut on the current flexplate. If this doesn't work then it's going to the shop. Nothing is bent, cracked or broken. I don't know what else to do or what it could be.
I've ordered a new flexplate from LowRangeOffRoad.com last week and it should be here next week. Shipping takes a little longer due to the holidays and also because it has to be shipped all the way to Virginia. I wanted to get an OEM plate, but the cheapest one I could find was over $250 and I just can't do that. The one I ordered from Low Range OffRoad was $93 shipped and after reading as many reviews as I could find I felt confident that I wouldn't have a problem with it. I've also ordered replacement shifter seats from Marlin Crawler for both the transmission and transfer case shifters. They were pretty bad so I figure now's a good a time as any to upgrade them. So while I'm waiting on new parts I taken care of a few other things. I've deleted both the EGR and PAIR valve systems. I've had the plates for a while so i finally got around to it. It's a lot easier access to the back of the head while the transmission is out. I also cleaned the coolant valve on the bottom of the throttle body also.
