Philbert

iTrader: (2)

Hey guys - so I drove it about 150 miles since done (Pleasanton to San Jose and back yesterday, and Pleasanton to Santa Clara today for work).

Runs really good and no leaks yet (first time in 11 years this truck hasn't leaked from the motor....the front diff is another story...).

I had a surging idle issue when it was warm. At stoplights it would idle at 900 or so, climb to about 1200 in a span of 3 secods, then abruptly drop back down- and keep doing this over and over.... I looked it up online and seems to be the idle screw on the TB that needed adjusting. When I calibrated my TPS with the TB off the truck, I did make the throttle plate a little more "open" per Roger's guide (it was flush/closed when I took it off the truck). I think the discrepancy between the screw's setting and the throttle cable screw I adjusted was changed, and I needed to adjust the idle screw to "even it out". I drove to work today, let it idle in the parking lot, then turned the screw 2 rotations clockwise, dropping the idle down to about 700-800 - no more surging

Also noticed that my dash temp gauge goes from "0" to "middle" pretty much instantly, but when the coolant is at ~100 degrees, not 180 degrees. I know this because I relocated my autometer sender to the same spot as the dash gauge sender (right next to it on the intake), and I can see the temp slowly creep up to 180 degrees - it's at 100 when the dash gauge springs into "middle" temp and stays there.

And, I am able to cruise at 180 degrees most of the time no problem. Sometimes, for short spelles, it will go as high as 195 degrees, but no higher, and then drops back to 180 degrees. It stays at 180 degrees I'd say 75% of the time for both around town and highway driving. Normal?

As far as performance, I really haven't pushed it since I want to get to 500 miles and change the oil/adjust valves again/etc - haven't really had over 4,000 RPM. Feels more responsive on the throttle (Supra AFM I guess, and less restrictive air filter), and doesn't bog down on highway hills (I can hold 55 in 4th no problem going up Sunol grade on 680, for those local...).

The motor overall seems a little quieter - no tapping/clattering of valves, and the "tick" I had is gone - I think it was a header leak that was solved by retorquing the header bolts when putting it all together.

I'll try to grab some photos/better video of it soon and post.

JohnnyCanuck

must feel good. I bet your ears are on uber-alert when your driving it!

Philbert

iTrader: (2)

Yeah it's been fun - every project I do on this truck I learn more about it and why it does what it does, and what's bad/good.

Really excited about the new sender for the water temp gauge I relocated - feel like it gives me a real accurate reading versus the in-hose one I had on the top radiator hose (had to wait for T stat to open to even get a reading before!).

Is the 180* to 195* temp fluctuation normal operating behavior for a 22RE? Nor really worried, just curious. I only have water in there now but need to rain some and fill with coolant too, and add some stop leak (guy at NAPA who has had an 86 since 87 and done the head a couple times suggested this with a new HG job, as added insurance.

Curious about the timing and what I can do to advance it to get more power - but I think will run 5* BTDC for now while I break it in over the first 1,000 miles.

BK2TFUTURE

Good job on all that work!

I know that feeling when you start her up and then you smile.

Philbert

iTrader: (2)

Thanks! I need to catch up on your thread - seems like a lot of email updates recently but I haven't checked in. You're local to me - would love to see it when done

Phil

BK2TFUTURE

Absolutely, I'm right across the pond =)

Right now it's the waiting game..... no major updates.

Philbert

iTrader: (2)

Day 3 update - drove to the airport today for a quick business trip - about a 20 mile drive.

When warm, it idles fine, and the temp still fluctuates between 180* and (now) 210*/195* - but never higher.

I adjusted the idle on the way home from work yesterday as it was stumbling a little.

This morning, when I fired it up at 4:15, the idle was really low (about 400) and it stumbled if I didn't give it some gas. Again, once warm, it seemed fine and idles around 800 or so.

Any ideas on why it would stumble/idle really low when cold but be ok on warm up? I'll also do some Googling, but since I'm here, and you're here.....

Thanks

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Maybe CSI isn't firing when cold? IACV is probably tired to. I finally broke down and got a new one. Never really cause the super low idle when cold, it just never would idle up. the new one gets the RPM's up to 1200 every morning and then slowly drops back down to 750 as it gets warm. That whole system just simply pulls air in from before the throttle plate and inserts it right into the plenum. check the back of the idle air control valve and make sure that you plug in the connector, just for the heck of it.

I'm not quite sure that the cold start injector not firing would cause you to have such a low idle either.

I know air bubbles cause people a lot of problems, but its not as likely when cold as the thing is still in open loop.

Hmmmmmm. Check your fuel pressure VSV as well, I'm fairly certain when they are cold they leave that open so that it can pull in full on fuel pressure as it's warming up??? Guys? Sounds like another little gremlin has reared its evil little head! Hate those damn gremlins!

Philbert

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Mark for the good ideas.
I came back last night from the airport to do a cold start and did a phone video of it (about 4 minutes long):

http://s1354.photobucket.com/user/ph...031ed.mp4.html

So, here's a synopsis of the symptoms so far:
- First start after all the work: hard starting, took a while to start but finally did and ran a little rough and low RPMs - about 500 or so. Gassed it a few times while warming up to keep it alive. Once warm, seemed fine.
- First real drive and warmed up: Seemed to run fine when warm but at stop lights it would do this looping thing where it would be at 800 RPM, then climb to 1200, before dropping back down the 800 - this whole loop took 3-4 seconds and kept going.
- Second real drive, got it warm, then pulled over and adjusted DOWN the idle screw on the TB to about 750 RPM - the surging issue above disappeared.
- Since then, I'm fine when warm (about 750 RPM) but all my cold starts are really rough. The idle stays around 100 RPMs as it's getting warm (see video).

I've tried messing with the idle screw when it's first warming up but while it does affect the idle, it's not changing it that much and it still runs really low/rough even when the screw is backed out, giving it the most air possible (right?).

The blue plug on the back of the IACV is plugged in, Mark - I checked again last night.

I don't think it's a cold start injector thing since I'm not getting an error code, and well, it's pretty warm here you know But I don't know if I'm just assuming and wrong there.

When I filled with water (no coolant yet while I do all this testing), I had the heater on full and the radiator neck open until warm, but this was on FLAT ground - wonder if that could be my issue? Remember, when warm, the temp goes from 180* to 210* and in between - could be air in there? But if so, why is it causing the cold start issues - Since the T stat is closed when cold, coolant is moving through the system, so would air have an effect when it's all cold??

Could be that I adjusted the throttle wrong when I set it up (I used 4crawler's guide and turned the screw till it was flush with the spring, then another 1/4 turn....maybe needs more?

My short term plans are to:
- bleed the system of air on a slope while warming up
- Do a vacuum leak test with carb cleaner

I found a good thread that I'm going to jump on here to see if THook can lend any more advice:

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...19/index2.html


Any other ideas?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thook/Matthew is the man! Miss chatting with him. ..

Yeah that's what I was saying as far as being odd that there would cause a problem 14 week old. And I'm not sure, but it sounds like you did the I'll stop screw on the throttle body language properly.

As far as doing vacuum leak testing I would definitely use starting fluid / ether and in a high percentage. It is for more volatile then carb cleaner and if you're going to show signs of a vacuum leak with the spray can it's much more likely to reveal itself using starter than in with carb cleaner.

It still sounds like something within the SI system is wonky, but there are only so many things involved when cold. The oxygen sensor is not immediately working. The coolant temperature sensor is not immediately working. Although it does what range in resistance from cold start too close loop. I really doubt that is a problem because it is brand new. TPS, airflow meter, cold start injector time switch, IACV, cold start injector along with everything mechanical are definitely involved. These issues seem to be very tricky since they don't throw a code and often are not solved even throwing multiple parts of them... And sometimes they just work themselves out... But this sounds like something you need to get on right away, I agree.

Almost sounds like it's starting for fuel, and you could be right in that a vacuum leak of unmetered air might cause a problem on cold start because the fuel is being dumped initially and maybe its still can't keep up with the air intake... And then when its warm, things expand and the vacuum leak is eliminated. From what I'm told the smoke test is still the best method. Kinda hard to find people to do it anymore but there are ways how to make homemade kits.

I'll keep thinking on this but there's only so many things to be checked out. You always want to start with the big three if you don't have a code.... Fuel, spark, air and compression. From there we go to the resistance values of each sensor, then often on to ECU testing.... ( what I mean is testing from the ECU, resistance and voltage readings to look for they drop out somewhere between the ECU and each element.) but good lord I hope you don't have to go through all that... I hope it's just something as simple as A walkie sensor that you find quickly. As far as the cold start injector, I'm not sure that it would throw a code if it was stuck closed. Even after cleaning, by RC injectors, my failure to clean the lines or fuel rail properly resulted in the number to injector immediately being clogged and frozen shut. There was no code, and I knew immediately that the second runner on the header wasn't getting hot... by then checked with a noid light, I knew I was getting power there and knew I was getting spark, thus, No Go Go juice in hole number 2! Lol. .. had to tear it down again, what had it flushed and then flushed all the lines and I haven't had a problem since. From there, well you know all of the nightmares that I had, all of the testing, on and on and on... Now I am dealing with that same symptom you are having but only when its hot on restart. No codes, can't seem to pin down a single item that is malfunctioning, and at this point I am left with either the fuel pressure regulator, damper, or some other unknown crappy little gremlin that is causing the problem. I just don't have time to find it. Eventually I will take another crack at it... Ok for now if I just give it gas and then drive out of it for about 100 feet... poof, voila, the gremlin suddenly disappears! Haha

Philbert

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Mark - that's a lot of details and things to consider.

I'm n not convinced it's CSI related, since the weather is so warm here and the symptoms disappear when the motor is fully warm. I need to noodle more on this and hope Thook responds soon to my PM.

Starter fluid, is that like charcoal fluid? I don't have ether, just brake cleaner and carb cleaner and charcoal starter fliud (could use a small spray bottle for it?).

*SIGH*

Really leaning toward it being one of these things:
- Throttle body/TPS adjustment out of whack
- IACV somehow clogged (though how in the course of my build I have no idea....)
- Vacuum leak
- AFM issue (but no codes thrown even though it's a supra AFM)
- Air in coolant (again, not convinced a cold engine would be affected by this)

Since this only happens on cold start do you think there are any SMOG implications, since I only would smog when warm? I'm due for that end of summer....

abecedarian

My apologies if things I mention have been brought up before. 14 pages is a lot to read through.


The cold start injector should only be operating while cranking and ALSO if the engine is cold, as in below 65F or so. Therefore, it might affect cold starts but not cold engine running.

Next thing I'd check would be the IACV / idle air control valve beneath the throttle body, making sure it is open, if even a little bit with ambient at ~60F, and closed soon after, particularly when the coolant is above 120-140F.


But, I wonder if you might need to adjust the AFM?

The spring in the AFM housing adjusts the tension on the air door and thus how the AFM responds to air flow- tighten the spring and lean the mix, loosen it and enrich the mix. But there is also an adjustment to the AFM that allows air to bypass the air door, and is highly influential on idle fuel mixture.

To me, it makes sense that the 5M/7M engines would draw more air through the meter at idle than a 22RE would, and that because of that the M's might allow more air to bypass the air door. In turn, this would signal to the RE ECU that air flow is low and therefore not as much fuel is needed and you would be lean when cold. Once warmed up a bit, maybe with the coolant at around 120-140F or so, the coolant temp sensor will be jumping in and helping bring things back in line.

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

The idle surge you had is the "usual suspect", the fuel cut off kicking in from having the idle set too high. Having reset the idle speed to 750, you're fine there now..

The water temp readings your seeing seem good. The toyota dual stage thermostat partially opens at around 90, and then fully at 180. If my memory serves.. The factory gauge jumps up and indicates operating temp at around this point, which is what your video and decriptions show. Again from memory the system is designed to overflow to the catch can around 200, you can math it out if you want it's running at around 28psi (Atmosphere + Cap rating).

The low cold idle is the current major issue yeah? I can see in the video your AFM has the mixture screw exposed. I'd suggest you throw the original air box on it to see if it solves the issue. If it does you'll need to tweak that screw on the AFM.

I'm not exactly clear what other tweaks you did to the air system. If these were throttle body adjustments you'll want to make sure the throttle plate & throttle opener are "working as intended", there are a few adjustments here..

The throttle opener has a limited range it should fully close the throttle plate at idle, Ideally you would hook a vacuum gauge to it's tube and write down the reading, then manualy apply that same vacuum to the throttle opener and adjust till it firmly and fully closes the plate.

The second is the throttle stop screw which should (like above) allow the throttle plate to fully and firmly close. This is a "simple" push the plate closed and adjust till the throttle cable cam meets the stop.

The final bit is the throttle cable tension which is set to slightly slack with the throttle plate fully closed.

Actually that made more sense this last time thru reading it. The TPS adjustment is done by the book no other way about it you have to use the proper spacing or the computer will not interpret the idle signal correctly.. You can probably safely ignore the adjustments I typed out above but since I already typed them I'm gonna leave em

You're definetly running rich, "Smokey, smelly, and dripping exhaust pipe". Aside from putting the original AFM and box on look for disconnected air hoses on the Idle air contraption.

I think I mentioned these before but I'll do it again just in case you missed them..
I'm not 100% sure which VSV that is you had to repair but it's worth a quick five minutes to make sure you got the plug you build assembled correctly (The picture is on the prior page, I can't make out the colors exactly but the red or brown was the horizontal plug), if these are backwards the VSV won't operate.

It's possible to have reversed the CSI and water temp plugs. This I believe should throw a code, when the CSI goes to open circuit(Warm) the computer will lose the water temp signal.


PS. Tweaking the vane spring is tweaking the physics of the air density, the only reason I'd do this is If I suspected the spring was worn out, at which point you'd need to go "a notch or two rich" as they suggest in the "crazy person" threads where people suggest tweaking these. Of course this is just one guys opinion, but I wouldn't alter that setting to get a richer/leaner mixture I'd use the proper screw which is exposed by drilling out the plug.

PPS. The Emissions goon might notice that isn't the proper AFM they might not But I'd expect they'll definetly notice the exposed screw. So make sure you keep that stock AFM around for those checks In case you didn't already know.

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

Bah forgot one/some.

The suction noise you're hearing is likely the lack of the silencer system that is part of the air box, which you don't have. It might also be you knocked the air by-pass hose loose when you were swapping out the thermo sensor.

Starter/Starting fluid, this is an Ether compound in an aerosol can and not interchangable with charcoal fluid. Any random parts place will hook you up.

abecedarian

I've either just been dazzled by brilliance or baffled by bull.....

I'm leaning towards the latter.

Reversing the CSI and water temp sensor plugs is not obvious?
Brown plug on green sensor and the green plug on the brown sensor?
The plugs are color coded to match the sensors.

Do I need to pick apart the rest of your post?

abecedarian

Charcoal fluid?

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

Sorry in advance I know some people have problems following me when I do multiple posts like this.


But I spoted this bit in the other thread and felt compelled to reply.
This indicates the IACV is opertating. The manual is a bit screwed up here and has useless text it should read something like this..

"When cold the Idle adjustment screw has little to no effect"
"When warm the Idle adjustment screw controls the idle speed"

I don't have my FSM available to quote the screwed up text but you maybe noticed it says the same thing twice


This leans me towards the issue being the hose on the front of the IACV is disconnected somewhere, or you have critters living somewhere in the system. If there where critters/blockage somewhere the idle screw would control the idle speed when the coolant is cold so it's more likely disconnected at one end or the hose is damaged.

abecedarian

Might be worth having me say now that if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

But still... charcoal fluid?

abecedarian

When one 'knows' their vehicle and 'knows' there are many adjustment screws, though they themselves may not be aware of any of them... all curtains are lifted.

Abecedarian's "The Art of Yota and the Zen of tuning it"... chapter not yet written.

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

Don't look at me like that I didn't say it

Yes please, aslong you can leave my mommy out of it I don't mind a good discussion.

re: green vs brown. I'm color blind and they generally look the same to me, even more so once they get abit dirty. I stand by it was a bad choice by the EE, but wouldn't doubt it was a decision made by management. I mean really two square plugs of a similar color coming out of the same bit of harness *arrrg*