Registered User
Nice catch MudHippy on the not knowing what I meant about the AFM and carb'd truck.
Registered User
for the record, I am not so sure if his info on the cyl walls is correct or not. I am pretty sure though, nearly every motor I have torn or have seen torn apart has had some sort of crosshatch left.
this is one of those things I was talking about in the rant thread about walking that line on getting smacked with a point or two or three, but I do think I am within the rules here.
And his response to me telling him to prove me wrong is also typical of someone who thinks he knows it all and cannot back it up. I think MudHippy backed his claim up pretty well and somewhat cleared up what he was calling glazing. I guess that glazing term is also used loosely kinda like the quench term get used more than what it should be.
this is one of those things I was talking about in the rant thread about walking that line on getting smacked with a point or two or three, but I do think I am within the rules here.
And his response to me telling him to prove me wrong is also typical of someone who thinks he knows it all and cannot back it up. I think MudHippy backed his claim up pretty well and somewhat cleared up what he was calling glazing. I guess that glazing term is also used loosely kinda like the quench term get used more than what it should be.
Registered User
I think the crosshatch lasts a lot longer in a block of a car than say a motorcycle.
I know my friends 84 ranger has seriously smooth cylinder walls. To me it seems like they're candy glazed over, but it would make the rings seal the best with a smooth cyl wall. On my dirtbike cylinder jug, the cylinder walls ver VERY smooth. It was also a twostroke dirtbike. So I dunno.
I think that mudhippy is right, he provided evidence.
I know my friends 84 ranger has seriously smooth cylinder walls. To me it seems like they're candy glazed over, but it would make the rings seal the best with a smooth cyl wall. On my dirtbike cylinder jug, the cylinder walls ver VERY smooth. It was also a twostroke dirtbike. So I dunno.
I think that mudhippy is right, he provided evidence.
so answers to questions... knew oil/coolant mixing and over pressure in case b/c i have just a breather filter instead of return hose from the crankcase... filter was bubbling slightly and had black oil with green coolant bubbles suspended in it on top of valve cover. also had very small amount of what i thought was oil (black spatter on paper towel) blowing out tailpipe for a long while... weber carb and egr removed only 15-20k ago... never got the high altitude jet pack till a week ago... ran ok 3k-4k elev, but smelled gas (rich) from 6k to 10k... have classic issues with vaccuum leak at weber base too... adapter plates blow! i didn't notice anything about the valves other than very thin white carbon deposit on the "coverplate" or whatever where the piston almost connects too...
Registered User
ok so we know it wasn't piston to valve clearance. And the headgasket was blown for sure. Was it ever throwing your typical plume of smoke from a headgasket failure or just water in the oil?
Registered User
I didnt realize that everything here was a lie until proven otherwise.
Read post 32 in response to your article.
Read post 32 in response to your article.
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by MudHippy
Yes. They should be glazed up/shiny like a mirror ASAP. For the best piston ring seal. Don't feel bad for not knowing that. Alot of folks think that's a "good" sign, but it's not.
Quote:
When a bore is honed to its final size, the stone used, is chosen to match the material makeup of the ring pack. (soft, medium, hard, moly, chrome)
The pattern that is honed on the wall, is comprised of microscopic scratches that are by design, used to hold an oil film.
That film is used to lubricate, cool, and help seal the ring pack to the wall.
A bore that has a totally smooth surface is one where the rings have never seated, and will suffer from low compression, and excessive blow by.
I apologize for going into preach mode, but I just couldn't let that one pass.
Art.
thanks for setting that straight... i hate misinformation like that...Originally Posted by ZARTT
I am amazed at times at the bad information that gets posted on some of these forums.When a bore is honed to its final size, the stone used, is chosen to match the material makeup of the ring pack. (soft, medium, hard, moly, chrome)
The pattern that is honed on the wall, is comprised of microscopic scratches that are by design, used to hold an oil film.
That film is used to lubricate, cool, and help seal the ring pack to the wall.
A bore that has a totally smooth surface is one where the rings have never seated, and will suffer from low compression, and excessive blow by.
I apologize for going into preach mode, but I just couldn't let that one pass.
Art.
having built many SBC motors back in the day with my dad i knew that yoyu should ALWAYS have the crosshatch pattern on the walls...
also, when we tore the top end off my runner @ 260K and tore down the block of a 3rz a couple months ago with 125K on it there were crosshatches in both of those as well...
never smoked at all... just had oil sputtering through... blow-by i assume... rebuilders flat out told me without seeing the engine that im,proper tuning caused high performance piston failure, they had a bunch coming back for a while, and he will rebuild as he sees fit with stock compression piston replacement by Rock, keep the oversize valve train and cam, and replace whatever as he deems necessary... i know its not going to be a FULL rebuild... he refused to send me a new engine first, claiming i would have had a free engine for the last year and a half...
anyway... hate seeing this BS internet battle... you guys should start your own thread... however in his defense, misinformation is a GIVEN on the internet, you better get a feel for who saying what and what is most commonly believed rather than accepting anything as fact... i read a lot of HYPOTHESIS here... some made sense others didn't... its like when i asked for advice on a dirt bike forum about places to stop in baja while on a 3000 mile unsupported dirt bike ride... everyone said it was reckless and impossible without a guide... turned out to be the best ride of my life...
i appreciate what y'all have to contribute to my personal issue, but in the end my opinion is the only one that matters... looking forward to a freshened engine and tune...
on to the next argument, i'll start a new thread about break in protocol!!!
anyway... hate seeing this BS internet battle... you guys should start your own thread... however in his defense, misinformation is a GIVEN on the internet, you better get a feel for who saying what and what is most commonly believed rather than accepting anything as fact... i read a lot of HYPOTHESIS here... some made sense others didn't... its like when i asked for advice on a dirt bike forum about places to stop in baja while on a 3000 mile unsupported dirt bike ride... everyone said it was reckless and impossible without a guide... turned out to be the best ride of my life...
i appreciate what y'all have to contribute to my personal issue, but in the end my opinion is the only one that matters... looking forward to a freshened engine and tune...
on to the next argument, i'll start a new thread about break in protocol!!!
Registered User
"claiming i would have had a free engine for the last year and a half" So I guess their lifetime warranty is non-existent then...
they ARE fixing it... but on their terms... they offered to send me 4 pistons and rings for free or I pay $300 in shipping fees for them to work on it... so it's going back and i'm carless for a bit!
Registered User
At least your getting some satisfaction.
Improper tune is somthing your hear connected with boosted engines( broken pistons common). I would measure your engine and make sure it wasnt built with to high a compression ratio. Alot of engines comming back and he will only rebuild with stock ( low compresion) pistons ( thats strange).I would also contact the piston manufacturer and find out if there have been problems with those pistons. If you have more facts it might give you more leverage with the rebuilder.
Do you have anymore details on the piston damage( melted/ broken where the damage is)?
Just trying to learn somthing.
Improper tune is somthing your hear connected with boosted engines( broken pistons common). I would measure your engine and make sure it wasnt built with to high a compression ratio. Alot of engines comming back and he will only rebuild with stock ( low compresion) pistons ( thats strange).I would also contact the piston manufacturer and find out if there have been problems with those pistons. If you have more facts it might give you more leverage with the rebuilder.
Do you have anymore details on the piston damage( melted/ broken where the damage is)?
Just trying to learn somthing.
Registered User
Desertwalker please go to the silvolite web page and look at keith black ring end gap fitting.Its very informative,and descriptive of your problem.Keith black has a high failure rate.Most shops blame the piston,the piston maker blames the installer...
Registered User
Keith Black hypereutectic pistons.
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/p...tails&P_id=201
Piston slap or improper top ring gap? Or both?
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/p...tails&P_id=201
Quote:
Suggested Piston to Wall Clearance
KB pistons can be installed tighter than other performance pistons. A close fitting piston rocks less, supports the rings better and seals the engine for maximum power. When a loose fit engine is desired the rigid skirt design of the KB piston allows the builder a choice without fear of piston damage. See the clearance chart below for minimum and realistic maximum loose fit clearance for KB pistons.
The Keith Black pistons unique thermal conductivity, ring location and varied end use requires special attention be paid to top ring end gap. KB pistons make more HP by reflecting heat energy back into the combustion process and, as a result, the top ring runs hotter and requires additional end clearance. Increasing ring end gap does not affect performance or oil control because normal end gaps are realized at operating temperatures. Failure to provide sufficient top ring end gap will cause a portion of the top ring land to break as the ring ends butt and lock tight in the cylinder. The broken piece may cause further piston or engine damage. Safe top ring end gaps can be found by multiplying the bore diameter by the appropriate ring end gap factor from the clearance chart below.
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/clearance_pop.phpSuggested Piston to Wall Clearance
KB pistons can be installed tighter than other performance pistons. A close fitting piston rocks less, supports the rings better and seals the engine for maximum power. When a loose fit engine is desired the rigid skirt design of the KB piston allows the builder a choice without fear of piston damage. See the clearance chart below for minimum and realistic maximum loose fit clearance for KB pistons.
The Keith Black pistons unique thermal conductivity, ring location and varied end use requires special attention be paid to top ring end gap. KB pistons make more HP by reflecting heat energy back into the combustion process and, as a result, the top ring runs hotter and requires additional end clearance. Increasing ring end gap does not affect performance or oil control because normal end gaps are realized at operating temperatures. Failure to provide sufficient top ring end gap will cause a portion of the top ring land to break as the ring ends butt and lock tight in the cylinder. The broken piece may cause further piston or engine damage. Safe top ring end gaps can be found by multiplying the bore diameter by the appropriate ring end gap factor from the clearance chart below.
Piston slap or improper top ring gap? Or both?
Registered User
The pictures don't show it very clearly but it appears the edges of the pistons are clean while the centers have heavy carbon build up.
Was this engine consuming oil?
Keith black pistons require proper end gaps of the rings. IF this wasn't done properly severe damage can happen.
While I personally don't think Keith Black pistons are worth the 200.00 I have installed a few sets into rebuilt 22R's at customers request without any problems. My opinion would be that it is unlikely the pistons themselves are to blame here. End gap issues, oil consumption causing excessive carbon coupled with higher compression ratios could cause detonation. (added carbon alone will raise compression numbers) and finally incorrect carburation. Or a deadly combo of the three.
Was this engine consuming oil?
Keith black pistons require proper end gaps of the rings. IF this wasn't done properly severe damage can happen.
While I personally don't think Keith Black pistons are worth the 200.00 I have installed a few sets into rebuilt 22R's at customers request without any problems. My opinion would be that it is unlikely the pistons themselves are to blame here. End gap issues, oil consumption causing excessive carbon coupled with higher compression ratios could cause detonation. (added carbon alone will raise compression numbers) and finally incorrect carburation. Or a deadly combo of the three.
there was a little carbon buildup on the edges of the piston for sure, not so much just in from there, and a bunch in the center... and funny enough... you can see the ring end gap in the center of both damaged areas, which is also at the CNC detail... deadly combo??? definitely a shearing/shattering/cleaving of metal...
yes on the oil consumption... sometimes half a quart/tank!!! even before the breather blow out there seemed to be blowby out the tailpipe, no smoke though...
anyone think i should get KB pistons re-installed? is there another performance piston? i paid for a high performance piston (b/c i tow a small trailer sometimes). am i getting something more reliable with the stock?
yes on the oil consumption... sometimes half a quart/tank!!! even before the breather blow out there seemed to be blowby out the tailpipe, no smoke though...
anyone think i should get KB pistons re-installed? is there another performance piston? i paid for a high performance piston (b/c i tow a small trailer sometimes). am i getting something more reliable with the stock?
Registered User
After reading the article, there is not much room for error with these pistons. Under the right conditions( or wrong conditions) a ring gap of .060 cold can close to 0 at temp. Not worth another damaged engine. To tempermental for a work engine.
Registered User
this should be an end-all for people arguing that breaking in an engine with synthetic is a good idea.
November 2007
TB 2333R
http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep1/EP012008_8-16.pdf
http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep1/EP012008_49-52.pdf
Camshaft Break-In Using Zinc for Flat Tappet Camshafts
The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information regarding camshaft break-in using Zinc for flat tappet camshafts. The information in this bulletin warns about the reduction of Zinc in gasoline engine oils which has been traced to many camshaft and flat tappet lifter failures. This information should be considered for any engine that uses a flat tappet design and should be referenced before initial engine start-up. Also refer to AERA Technical Bulletin, TB 1935, to help prevent other possible component failures..
The current engine oils used by engine manufacturers in new car production are not applicable for initial flat tappet camshaft break-in. Those newer oils are less desirable than older formulations which have better wear additives than the current SM category oils. With the advent of roller lifters/cams as well as roller rockers, the need for those expensive elements has diminished. Emission laws have caused the reduction of Zinc and Phosphorus in the current oils because as they pass through the exhaust they plate themselves to the inside of the catalytic converter. This plating action does not create a restriction or increase back pressure but it renders the function of the catalytic converter useless. Eventually, this non function will turn on a check engine light for emissions failure.
Numerous AERA members report premature flat tappet camshaft failure during or after break-in. This has been an ongoing issue of late and not just with one brand or type of camshaft. In almost every case, the hardness or the taper of the cam lobe and lifter were within specifications. The reduction of Zinc in most of today’s oil products and “advanced” internal engine design have contributed to a harsher environment for the flat tappet camshaft to survive. That reduction has greatly increased the potential for cam lobe failure during engine break-in. Diesel engine oils produced before January 2007 had a CI-4 oil designation and offer higher levels of Zinc and wear preventive additives than passenger car oils. BUT, after January 2007, the CJ-4 oil designation for new truck engine manufacturers mandates oils with a reduction in Zinc. Off-Road truck and racing engine oils have a higher Zinc content because the engines do not use catalytic converters. All of the oils listed below have flashpoints above 400° F.
Do not break-in a flat tappet camshaft and lifters using synthetic oil.
Delo 400 CI-4 15w-40
DelvacCI-4 15w-40
Rotella T CI-4 15w-40
Phosphorus 1375
Phosphorus 1120
Phosphorus 1326
Zinc 1376 PPM before 07
Zinc 1231 PPM before 07
Zinc 1499 PPM before 07
Zinc 1200 CJ-4, Jan 2007
Moly 35
Zinc 1200 CJ-4, Jan 2007
Zinc 1200 CJ-4, Jan 2007
Adding additional Zinc for camshaft and lifter break-in by using GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) or using any supplant supplied from any of the aftermarket cam manufacturers. All camshaft manufacturers are aware of the reduction of Zinc and changes in engine oils formulations. For many years they have offered camshaft assembly lube and break-in lube for their products, so USE IT. Liberal amounts of this lube during assembly on all moving or rotating points will offer a front line defense as soon as the engine is rotated. GM recommends pouring a pint bottle of their EOS over the crankshaft before installing the oil pan.
November 2007
TB 2333R
http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep1/EP012008_8-16.pdf
http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep1/EP012008_49-52.pdf
Camshaft Break-In Using Zinc for Flat Tappet Camshafts
The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information regarding camshaft break-in using Zinc for flat tappet camshafts. The information in this bulletin warns about the reduction of Zinc in gasoline engine oils which has been traced to many camshaft and flat tappet lifter failures. This information should be considered for any engine that uses a flat tappet design and should be referenced before initial engine start-up. Also refer to AERA Technical Bulletin, TB 1935, to help prevent other possible component failures..
The current engine oils used by engine manufacturers in new car production are not applicable for initial flat tappet camshaft break-in. Those newer oils are less desirable than older formulations which have better wear additives than the current SM category oils. With the advent of roller lifters/cams as well as roller rockers, the need for those expensive elements has diminished. Emission laws have caused the reduction of Zinc and Phosphorus in the current oils because as they pass through the exhaust they plate themselves to the inside of the catalytic converter. This plating action does not create a restriction or increase back pressure but it renders the function of the catalytic converter useless. Eventually, this non function will turn on a check engine light for emissions failure.
Numerous AERA members report premature flat tappet camshaft failure during or after break-in. This has been an ongoing issue of late and not just with one brand or type of camshaft. In almost every case, the hardness or the taper of the cam lobe and lifter were within specifications. The reduction of Zinc in most of today’s oil products and “advanced” internal engine design have contributed to a harsher environment for the flat tappet camshaft to survive. That reduction has greatly increased the potential for cam lobe failure during engine break-in. Diesel engine oils produced before January 2007 had a CI-4 oil designation and offer higher levels of Zinc and wear preventive additives than passenger car oils. BUT, after January 2007, the CJ-4 oil designation for new truck engine manufacturers mandates oils with a reduction in Zinc. Off-Road truck and racing engine oils have a higher Zinc content because the engines do not use catalytic converters. All of the oils listed below have flashpoints above 400° F.
Do not break-in a flat tappet camshaft and lifters using synthetic oil.
Delo 400 CI-4 15w-40
DelvacCI-4 15w-40
Rotella T CI-4 15w-40
Phosphorus 1375
Phosphorus 1120
Phosphorus 1326
Zinc 1376 PPM before 07
Zinc 1231 PPM before 07
Zinc 1499 PPM before 07
Zinc 1200 CJ-4, Jan 2007
Moly 35
Zinc 1200 CJ-4, Jan 2007
Zinc 1200 CJ-4, Jan 2007
Adding additional Zinc for camshaft and lifter break-in by using GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) or using any supplant supplied from any of the aftermarket cam manufacturers. All camshaft manufacturers are aware of the reduction of Zinc and changes in engine oils formulations. For many years they have offered camshaft assembly lube and break-in lube for their products, so USE IT. Liberal amounts of this lube during assembly on all moving or rotating points will offer a front line defense as soon as the engine is rotated. GM recommends pouring a pint bottle of their EOS over the crankshaft before installing the oil pan.
