Need help diagnosing an intermittent gremlin
12-21-2013, 07:17 PM
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Need help diagnosing an intermittent gremlin
Hi all,
My truck is a 1994 two-wheel drive manual transmission standard pickup with a 22re. I've owned it since new and it has about 230K miles. The only repairs I've had to make were replacing the radiator, hoses, starter, rear axle seal, and an exhaust manifold stud that had managed to vibrate its way out of the block.
The truck still runs beautifully EXCEPT that it's developed an intermittent problem where on random starts it runs rough like it has an air/vacuum leak or the timing is off. By random starts I mean 9 out of 10 key-ons the truck works without problems, but on the 10th key-on it will both idle and run rough and I'll have to work the accelerator/throttle to keep it from stalling in gear on the road. But then on the 11th key-on the truck will run perfectly fine again making diagnosis very difficult. The MIL is off and there are no soft codes either (OBD I).
I've consulted with some mechanic friends and they think the throttle body needs to be removed and cleaned. I intend to do that, but it seems to me that if carbon buildup was the problem then it would be a persistent problem. Furthermore, the problem never seems to manifest itself once the engine has started normally, only on a fresh start that begins with a rough idle.
I do all the normal maintenance stuff regularly (oil and filter changes, air filter changes, fuel filter changes, spark plugs, distributor cap, rotor, wires, etc.). I haven't changed the O2 or fuel pump yet and the timing chain is getting noisy - I think the plastic rail has broken, but I checked the timing and it is where it should be). I would have suspected the timing chain had slipped, but since the problem heals itself on subsequent key-ons I don't think that is the problem.
One other thing of note, I popped the hood and tried to listen for a vacuum leak, but instead I noticed a faint buzzing sound. It took a while, but I traced it to the distributor. I'm not sure if this is unusual, but I don't ever remember hearing it before. To my untrained ear it sounded like a singing bearing, but it might just have been the spinning rotor - I dunno.
It almost seems like there is something going on that is causing an initialization failure right at start-up. Does this point to the on-board computer or perhaps a sensor?
Any and all suggestions are appreciated. Thanks and Merry Christmas to all.
My truck is a 1994 two-wheel drive manual transmission standard pickup with a 22re. I've owned it since new and it has about 230K miles. The only repairs I've had to make were replacing the radiator, hoses, starter, rear axle seal, and an exhaust manifold stud that had managed to vibrate its way out of the block.
The truck still runs beautifully EXCEPT that it's developed an intermittent problem where on random starts it runs rough like it has an air/vacuum leak or the timing is off. By random starts I mean 9 out of 10 key-ons the truck works without problems, but on the 10th key-on it will both idle and run rough and I'll have to work the accelerator/throttle to keep it from stalling in gear on the road. But then on the 11th key-on the truck will run perfectly fine again making diagnosis very difficult. The MIL is off and there are no soft codes either (OBD I).
I've consulted with some mechanic friends and they think the throttle body needs to be removed and cleaned. I intend to do that, but it seems to me that if carbon buildup was the problem then it would be a persistent problem. Furthermore, the problem never seems to manifest itself once the engine has started normally, only on a fresh start that begins with a rough idle.
I do all the normal maintenance stuff regularly (oil and filter changes, air filter changes, fuel filter changes, spark plugs, distributor cap, rotor, wires, etc.). I haven't changed the O2 or fuel pump yet and the timing chain is getting noisy - I think the plastic rail has broken, but I checked the timing and it is where it should be). I would have suspected the timing chain had slipped, but since the problem heals itself on subsequent key-ons I don't think that is the problem.
One other thing of note, I popped the hood and tried to listen for a vacuum leak, but instead I noticed a faint buzzing sound. It took a while, but I traced it to the distributor. I'm not sure if this is unusual, but I don't ever remember hearing it before. To my untrained ear it sounded like a singing bearing, but it might just have been the spinning rotor - I dunno.
It almost seems like there is something going on that is causing an initialization failure right at start-up. Does this point to the on-board computer or perhaps a sensor?
Any and all suggestions are appreciated. Thanks and Merry Christmas to all.
12-22-2013, 02:07 AM
#2
Does this happen completely random??Could happen after it sits all night?? Might not see the issue for a few days?
Makes no difference engine being warm or cold??
You might drive 10 miles or a 100 it makes no difference
truck parked level or on a hard angle??
What happens if when you have the issue you shut the engine off wait a minute or two and restart??
As you state it runs fine next start there has to be a common denominator here.
just a guess
It sounds like maybe an injector sticking or the cold start injector dumping to much fuel then needing more air to even out.
12-22-2013, 12:20 PM
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Thanks for responding.
Does this happen completely random??
Could happen after it sits all night?? Might not see the issue for a few days?
Makes no difference engine being warm or cold??
I haven't been able to identify a consistent pattern of occurrence yet, but it isn't completely random. First start in the morning after an all night cold soak always runs normally. The problem usually occurs on a warm or hot start, but not consistently. Like I said maybe every 10th hot start I'll get the problem.
You might drive 10 miles or a 100 it makes no difference
Distance or run time doesn't seem to make a difference. The problem has occurred after a 30 mile freeway trip and after a 2 mile trip to my son's school.
truck parked level or on a hard angle??
Soft angle in my driveway, level in the parking lot at work, but always starts and runs fine after a cold soak.
What happens if when you have the issue you shut the engine off wait a minute or two and restart??
I haven't tried to shut down on a cold start (usually because I just want to be able to get to work or my son's school on time), but on a hot start the problem usually continues to occur after restarting. The one exception has been when I drove the truck about 7 minutes to a gas station. After refilling I was able to start the truck normally and it continued to run normally throughout the remainder of the driving cycle. At that point I was hoping the problem had something to do with fuel level, but on the very next hot start the problem occurred again with nearly a full tank.
As you state it runs fine next start there has to be a common denominator here.
just a guess
It sounds like maybe an injector sticking or the cold start injector dumping to much fuel then needing more air to even out.
The problem occurred again this morning on a hot start back from church so while it was running I pulled the spark plug wires one by one and although each wire was getting plenty of spark, pulling the #1 plug didn't seem to make a difference in the way the engine ran whereas all the other plug pulls caused the engine to stumble. I'm letting the engine cool and will pull the plugs, but they aren't that old - maybe 12K miles so I'm thinking a fueling problem now like you suggested.
What exactly des the cold start injector do and how does more fuel result in decreased performance? Also, is there a fuel treatment to cure a sticky injector (sea foam for example) or will I need to remove and clean/replace the injector?
Thanks for your feedback.
Does this happen completely random??Could happen after it sits all night?? Might not see the issue for a few days?
Makes no difference engine being warm or cold??
I haven't been able to identify a consistent pattern of occurrence yet, but it isn't completely random. First start in the morning after an all night cold soak always runs normally. The problem usually occurs on a warm or hot start, but not consistently. Like I said maybe every 10th hot start I'll get the problem.
You might drive 10 miles or a 100 it makes no difference
Distance or run time doesn't seem to make a difference. The problem has occurred after a 30 mile freeway trip and after a 2 mile trip to my son's school.
truck parked level or on a hard angle??
Soft angle in my driveway, level in the parking lot at work, but always starts and runs fine after a cold soak.
What happens if when you have the issue you shut the engine off wait a minute or two and restart??
I haven't tried to shut down on a cold start (usually because I just want to be able to get to work or my son's school on time), but on a hot start the problem usually continues to occur after restarting. The one exception has been when I drove the truck about 7 minutes to a gas station. After refilling I was able to start the truck normally and it continued to run normally throughout the remainder of the driving cycle. At that point I was hoping the problem had something to do with fuel level, but on the very next hot start the problem occurred again with nearly a full tank.
As you state it runs fine next start there has to be a common denominator here.
just a guess
It sounds like maybe an injector sticking or the cold start injector dumping to much fuel then needing more air to even out.
What exactly des the cold start injector do and how does more fuel result in decreased performance? Also, is there a fuel treatment to cure a sticky injector (sea foam for example) or will I need to remove and clean/replace the injector?
Thanks for your feedback.
12-22-2013, 11:03 PM
#4
You can try any of the fuel treatments i can`t really say any work better then others.
When your stepping on the throttle all your doing is giving it more air all the fuel is controlled by either the cold start injector via readings from the temp sensor and the time switch.(simple version)
The other times from the ecu telling the injectors when and how long to fire.
Since the fuel is present under pressure at all times and sticking open will result in fuel being dumped in the engine .
Then the engine needs more air .
Being it is an intermittent problem just makes it harder to track down.
Could be a electrical problem or in the case of a spec of dirt mechanical
Good luck it can get frustrating at times.
When your stepping on the throttle all your doing is giving it more air all the fuel is controlled by either the cold start injector via readings from the temp sensor and the time switch.(simple version)
The other times from the ecu telling the injectors when and how long to fire.
Since the fuel is present under pressure at all times and sticking open will result in fuel being dumped in the engine .
Then the engine needs more air .
Being it is an intermittent problem just makes it harder to track down.
Could be a electrical problem or in the case of a spec of dirt mechanical
Good luck it can get frustrating at times.
12-24-2013, 11:09 AM
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It is frustrating. I have some time off after Christmas so I'll probably get a better sense of what's wrong then. What I know for now is that the #1 cyclinder isn't firing when it malfunctions. I suspect a fuel problem because spark was present when I pulled the plug wire and the plugs mostly looked normal (I would have expected fouling or wetness if fuel was present without spark). I don't think the cold start injector is the problem or else it would be affecting the other cyclinders too?? This leads me to believe that it's either an injector or the ECU, but neither explains why the cylinder fires normally on a cold start, but not on a hot start. I considered it might be the coolant temp sensor, but again that should affect more than just one cylinder. Thanks again for your suggestions. If you think of anything else let me know.
12-24-2013, 11:33 PM
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I am just going by your #1 cylinder not firing. Is the screen in the injector clogged? The 94 models have the better connectors to the injectors. Still could have a bad wiring connection. If those check out, I have experienced where the entire circuit of an injector will pass a resistance check and still not fire the injector. The crimp that is in the wiring harness is corroded, it will keep enough voltage or current (electric is my weak area, so not sure which to mention) from passing thru. The crimp is a poor design. I suggest removing the crimp and solder the connection.
1 and 3 injectors share the same wire and 2 and 4 share the same wire. The crimp is located in the dip of the wiring where it comes from the front of the intake and attaches to the passenger inner fender. I have seen where others have had the wire to one injector to get pulled away from the crimp. The harness catches a lot of fluids, sand, and water which weakens the connectors.
Here is a link>>> https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...l#post51897320
I have bumped #1 injector doing regular maintianace and had it to fire intermittently. Try gently pulling and pushing on the connector while it is idling and see if that makes a difference.
1 and 3 injectors share the same wire and 2 and 4 share the same wire. The crimp is located in the dip of the wiring where it comes from the front of the intake and attaches to the passenger inner fender. I have seen where others have had the wire to one injector to get pulled away from the crimp. The harness catches a lot of fluids, sand, and water which weakens the connectors.
Here is a link>>> https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...l#post51897320
I have bumped #1 injector doing regular maintianace and had it to fire intermittently. Try gently pulling and pushing on the connector while it is idling and see if that makes a difference.
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12-25-2013, 03:37 PM
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Terry, you might be on to something. My coolant bypass hose ruptured about a month ago spewing coolant everywhere and it is in the vicinity of the #1 injector. I washed everything down afterwards, but coolant is nasty stuff. The #1 injector connector will be the first thing I check tomorrow. I hope everyone is having or had a Merry Christmas. Thanks all.
12-25-2013, 03:50 PM
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Terry, I just thought of a follow-up question - when you say #1 and #3 injectors share the same wire, does that mean a common ground or the signal (pulse) carrying wire? I wouldn't think both injectors would be firing simultaneously, but if they do and it is a common signal wire I can probably rule out the harness crimp and focus more on the connector itself or the injector. Thanks again.
12-26-2013, 03:13 AM
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I would check the connector first. #1 is the most exposed and is the most likely to get damaged. I have done that myself. the other 3 injectors are pretty well protected and almost impossible to get bumped.
Electric is not my strongest area, but as I undestand it, the ECU does the ground thru electronic inside the computer box. I could be wrong, just the way I understand it.
The crimp is on the supply side of power of two sets of injectors and it does seem to me that it would fire both off at the same time and I dont fully understand how it works but it does. The crimp is a poor design and is just a piece of wire crimped on and then just covered by a piece of electrical tape. At first I thought it was a repair done bad, but these crimps are in several other places on these trucks as well.
The covering over the harness allows dirt and moisture to get inside easily. I have pulled several coverings off and am always amazed at how much gets in there. Another thing I learned, just because it will pass a resistance check, doesnt mean current or voltage can flow thru it. I have seen a whole wire corroded as well because of the corrsion just sitting on the wire.
Check the connector first. It would be the easiest to fix. Might have to splice on another connector to do the repair.
Here is a picture of the crimp. Not very good and hard to see but it is small. That is sand on the tape in the picture.
Electric is not my strongest area, but as I undestand it, the ECU does the ground thru electronic inside the computer box. I could be wrong, just the way I understand it.
The crimp is on the supply side of power of two sets of injectors and it does seem to me that it would fire both off at the same time and I dont fully understand how it works but it does. The crimp is a poor design and is just a piece of wire crimped on and then just covered by a piece of electrical tape. At first I thought it was a repair done bad, but these crimps are in several other places on these trucks as well.
The covering over the harness allows dirt and moisture to get inside easily. I have pulled several coverings off and am always amazed at how much gets in there. Another thing I learned, just because it will pass a resistance check, doesnt mean current or voltage can flow thru it. I have seen a whole wire corroded as well because of the corrsion just sitting on the wire.
Check the connector first. It would be the easiest to fix. Might have to splice on another connector to do the repair.
Here is a picture of the crimp. Not very good and hard to see but it is small. That is sand on the tape in the picture.
12-29-2013, 04:14 AM
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Progress has been slow, but I finally found some time to remove the throttle chamber and injectors. I was surprised that the throttle itself wasn't that dirty (I spray with a cleaner every couple of years so maybe that is sufficient compared to a full takedown?), but the injectors are a mess.
Here's the rail
Injector #1 (this is the one I suspect causing misfire in Cyl #1)
Injector #2
Injector #3
Injector #4
The screens are badly worn on all the injectors, especially #1 and #2, so I decided to replace them all with rebuilt units. I ordered them online and am still waiting for delivery. Is there any chance that the missing screen fragments from #1 and #2 could do damage to the cylinders/valves as I assume the broken parts got sucked into the engine at some point?
I did a resistance check on the injectors and all were within spec according to the fsm (13.4 to 14.2 ohms), but it seemed a little odd that #1 measured exactly 14ohms but #2, #3, and #4 measured exactly 13.7 ohms. I'm not sure if this is significant, but #1 is the suspect injector.
I also noticed something odd about the injector connectors. #1 was white, but #2, #3, and #4 were all green colored. Is there something different about the #1 injector that I should be aware of?
Furthermore, the #1 injector was very loose before I removed the rail. I noticed the plastic locking tab was missing (tang that fits into a notch on the rail), but regardless I could spin it without much resistance at all. The other injectors seemed to fit more tightly, even #3 which also had a broken plastic locking tab. The O-rings for all the injectors were still in place.
I'll get around to doing a continuity check of the connectors today or tomorrow, but optically they all look to be in good shape without any corrosion. I haven't checked the crimp yet either. Thanks again for your help.
Here's the rail
Injector #1 (this is the one I suspect causing misfire in Cyl #1)
Injector #2
Injector #3
Injector #4
The screens are badly worn on all the injectors, especially #1 and #2, so I decided to replace them all with rebuilt units. I ordered them online and am still waiting for delivery. Is there any chance that the missing screen fragments from #1 and #2 could do damage to the cylinders/valves as I assume the broken parts got sucked into the engine at some point?
I did a resistance check on the injectors and all were within spec according to the fsm (13.4 to 14.2 ohms), but it seemed a little odd that #1 measured exactly 14ohms but #2, #3, and #4 measured exactly 13.7 ohms. I'm not sure if this is significant, but #1 is the suspect injector.
I also noticed something odd about the injector connectors. #1 was white, but #2, #3, and #4 were all green colored. Is there something different about the #1 injector that I should be aware of?
Furthermore, the #1 injector was very loose before I removed the rail. I noticed the plastic locking tab was missing (tang that fits into a notch on the rail), but regardless I could spin it without much resistance at all. The other injectors seemed to fit more tightly, even #3 which also had a broken plastic locking tab. The O-rings for all the injectors were still in place.
I'll get around to doing a continuity check of the connectors today or tomorrow, but optically they all look to be in good shape without any corrosion. I haven't checked the crimp yet either. Thanks again for your help.
12-29-2013, 05:29 AM
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www.fuelinjectorman.com
Use your CRC throttlebody cleaner to clean the filter in your modulator, also.
Bills86e
Use your CRC throttlebody cleaner to clean the filter in your modulator, also.
Bills86e
12-29-2013, 08:33 PM
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Bill,
I'm not sure what you mean when you say modulator. Are you referring to the pressure regulator on the fuel rail or something else? Sorry, my range of terminology is severely lacking regarding fuel injected engines. The last engine I worked on still had a carburetor. Thanks.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say modulator. Are you referring to the pressure regulator on the fuel rail or something else? Sorry, my range of terminology is severely lacking regarding fuel injected engines. The last engine I worked on still had a carburetor. Thanks.
12-31-2013, 07:32 AM
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Its on front left of plenom, next to EGR.Filtering the vacuum going into egr valve, to insure funtionability.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291009718504...#ht_1003wt_671
The Exhaust Gas Regulator is an important emmissions part that re-circulates when you let off the gas pedal. An important part of good gas mileage.
Inspect the Cap & Rotor, clean or replace if corroded.
Bills86e
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291009718504...#ht_1003wt_671
The Exhaust Gas Regulator is an important emmissions part that re-circulates when you let off the gas pedal. An important part of good gas mileage.
Inspect the Cap & Rotor, clean or replace if corroded.
Bills86e
Last edited by Bills86e; 12-31-2013 at 08:56 AM.
12-31-2013, 01:50 PM
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Thanks Bill,
I actually replaced that device a couple of years ago. I didn't realize it could be cleaned, especially not with throttle cleaner. Good to know for the future.
I actually replaced that device a couple of years ago. I didn't realize it could be cleaned, especially not with throttle cleaner. Good to know for the future.
01-01-2014, 06:32 PM
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Thanks Bill - the dashpot seems to be working fine. Progress is still slow. I ordered some OE parts online to save a few bucks, but it is taking forever for them to arrive. The one order that did arrive yesterday had a folded over plenum gasket so I went to the local dealership and they had to order one that should be in on Friday. Just as well because the more I examine stuff the more problems I find. For starters, the EGR temperature sensor (the one next to the Coolant Temperature Sensor on the front of the engine) tested bad. I put an ohm meter across the terminals and dipped the sensor into boiling water, but no change in resistance occurred. So I cleaned the probe end of the sensor and sprayed contact cleaner on the terminals, but still no change in boiling water. The ECT tested ok. Unfortunately the Toyota EGR Temp Sensor is almost $200 bucks online and probably more at the dealership. I haven't been able to find an aftermarket replacement either. How important is this sensor anyway for engine performance? I know it's part of the emission control system on the truck and because of that I'll end up replacing it sooner or later, but I'd rather take my time and find a working one at the local pick-a-part if it's not going to affect drivability in the meantime. Does anyone know where I can find an aftermarket replacement (or a good used part)? I also had to adjust my TPS. It wasn't responding the way it was supposed to at idle so I loosened the screws and adjusted with the .57 and .85mm feeler gauges and now it seems to respond correctly. Removing the screws was easier said than done because they were locked in there and I started buggering the Phillips slot, but fortunately I was able to use my vise grips to finally break them free. I had the same problem with the idle air control valve. I even applied liquid wrench overnight and it didn't help. In any event, thanks to everyone for your suggestions. Please keep them coming and Happy New Year.
01-02-2014, 04:37 PM
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The injectors arrived this evening, so I haven't had time to install them yet, but I am already disappointed in the quality. They are supposedly ultrasonically cleaned and matched, but every single terminal on every injector was covered with greenish blue corrosion and the injectors ranged from 14.0 to 14.2 ohms, the latter value of which is the upper limit according to the fsm. I cleaned the terminals with contact spray and the resistance leveled out to exactly 14.0 ohms for each injector, but that's still higher than three of my original 220k mile injectors that I intend to replace (13.6 ohms each). If I wasn't strapped for time I would send them back, but since this is my last week of vacation there isn't time for a turn around. I dunno, maybe I'll be surprised and the injectors will work flawlessly, but based on the corrosion I'm not very confident.
If I need to purchase quality rebuilt injectors in the future, what are your recommendations for a vendor (if it isn't against forum rules to ask)? Are there kits I can purchase to rebuild them myself? I won't be sending the originals back as intended for a core refund simply because I think the three good ones might be better than the 4 new ones I just purchased. Thanks.
If I need to purchase quality rebuilt injectors in the future, what are your recommendations for a vendor (if it isn't against forum rules to ask)? Are there kits I can purchase to rebuild them myself? I won't be sending the originals back as intended for a core refund simply because I think the three good ones might be better than the 4 new ones I just purchased. Thanks.
01-02-2014, 05:30 PM
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01-07-2014, 08:56 PM
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Thanks again Bill. The injectors are installed and my intermittent misfire has disappeared. The truck runs much more smoothly than before (even on all 4 cylinders) and is more responsive too. I still don't understand how/why the #1 injector behaved intermittently based on start up temperature, but it definitely did. My initial measurement of resistance was 14 ohms on the day I removed the injector, but I measured it again a couple of days later and got 19 ohms. I have no idea how that could be.
Initially after reassembly I had a pulsating idle problem, but that went away after I adjusted the engine idle speed back down to 750 rpm. I thought it might have been a bad auxiliary air valve because I had to screw the idle adjustment screw nearly all the way in, but it's probably more due to the fact I removed carbon build up in the air bypass hole in the throttle body.
I still need to replace a broken timing chain rail in the near future, but at least the truck is able to get me to and from work again until that happens. Thanks to all for your troubleshooting suggestions and expertise.
Initially after reassembly I had a pulsating idle problem, but that went away after I adjusted the engine idle speed back down to 750 rpm. I thought it might have been a bad auxiliary air valve because I had to screw the idle adjustment screw nearly all the way in, but it's probably more due to the fact I removed carbon build up in the air bypass hole in the throttle body.
I still need to replace a broken timing chain rail in the near future, but at least the truck is able to get me to and from work again until that happens. Thanks to all for your troubleshooting suggestions and expertise.
