Mystery misfire. Any advice appreciated. Contemplating jumping off cliff...
09-21-2010, 03:52 PM
#81
Well, it didn't overheat on the way home. I think it might have been that I had air in the system from taking off the throttle body....But yes, I'm not convinced either way that I have a blown gasket or not.
I took it by a Toyota specialist shop, and the guy seemed nice and knowledgeable. He listened to the truck and thought its definitely cam related...especially since it was aftermarket. The fact that it only had 160 psi in the cylinders he felt that there was valve float, especially at high idle when I got the miss.
I forgot to mention to him that it wont miss when its in open loop. He feels that I should go ahead and just change the cam out with a stock cam...
I took it by a Toyota specialist shop, and the guy seemed nice and knowledgeable. He listened to the truck and thought its definitely cam related...especially since it was aftermarket. The fact that it only had 160 psi in the cylinders he felt that there was valve float, especially at high idle when I got the miss.
I forgot to mention to him that it wont miss when its in open loop. He feels that I should go ahead and just change the cam out with a stock cam...
09-21-2010, 03:52 PM
#82
Contributing Member
Thread Starter
It depends, deck the head, two new valves and guides, rocker arms & cam. I have a feeling its a lot cheaper to get a head swap from a reputable source. Who do you know? besides this way its waiting for you, not the other way around.
Was the timing chain done? Supposed to be done every 100k, so you may need that too. I bet there is crud in the pan as well that needs to be cleaned out.
I think a junkyard or auto salvage yard engine might be the way to go. Might not be right for you. Head, pan, and chain have been done before without pulling the engine. You would not be the first if chose that route. How much can you do alone?
Was the timing chain done? Supposed to be done every 100k, so you may need that too. I bet there is crud in the pan as well that needs to be cleaned out.
I think a junkyard or auto salvage yard engine might be the way to go. Might not be right for you. Head, pan, and chain have been done before without pulling the engine. You would not be the first if chose that route. How much can you do alone?
New heads are about $500 from 22re.com (http://www.22re.com/main/toy/head.htm) and $450 at enginebuilder (http://www.engnbldr.com/head_shop.htm)... I assume the enginebuilder one comes with rockers as well? 22re.com one says "Ready to bolt on"... that would be sweet ;D
09-21-2010, 03:58 PM
#83
Contributing Member
Thread Starter
I still am unsure on how you guys are so certain that its a blown HG. I'm not doubting you at all, I'm just trying to get my head around it...
I don't really have any symptoms except for the coolant spouting off when I accelerate the engine with the cap off... and obviously lack of power (which could be valve train related).
What about trying a new cam first (keeping the head in tact), if that doesn't help right off the bat then I'd go ahead and go deeper?
I don't really have any symptoms except for the coolant spouting off when I accelerate the engine with the cap off... and obviously lack of power (which could be valve train related).
What about trying a new cam first (keeping the head in tact), if that doesn't help right off the bat then I'd go ahead and go deeper?
09-21-2010, 04:02 PM
#84
Registered User
You can get a fully assembled stock head from engine builder for 348.00. Don`t get the head from22re.com, it looks like junk. The heads don`t come with new rockers, you have to buy them seperatly.
09-21-2010, 04:14 PM
#85
Registered User
I still am unsure on how you guys are so certain that its a blown HG. I'm not doubting you at all, I'm just trying to get my head around it...
I don't really have any symptoms except for the coolant spouting off when I accelerate the engine with the cap off... and obviously lack of power (which could be valve train related).
What about trying a new cam first (keeping the head in tact), if that doesn't help right off the bat then I'd go ahead and go deeper?
I don't really have any symptoms except for the coolant spouting off when I accelerate the engine with the cap off... and obviously lack of power (which could be valve train related).
What about trying a new cam first (keeping the head in tact), if that doesn't help right off the bat then I'd go ahead and go deeper?
Let me explain another thing you asked about, if you fill the radiator to the top when its cold and then run the engine for a while and then let it cool down and remove the radiator cap and the coolant looks a little low, its not. When the engine heats up to normal operating temperature the coolant expands and the excess goes into the overflow tank, as the engine cools down a vacuum is created in the cooling system and some of the coolant is pulled back into the radiator. BUT if the radiator is very low after the engine cools down then you have a problem thats not normal.
09-21-2010, 04:15 PM
#86
Contributing Member
Thread Starter
OK. Where do you buy the rockers from? I dont see them listed on enginbuilder
09-21-2010, 04:17 PM
#87
Registered User
dealership. or talk to trainwreckseattle i think he knows where to get OEM rockers from non-dealerships. Only get OEM rockers. Order some adjuster screws and nuts as well when you do. Also only go OEM on these as well.
09-21-2010, 04:21 PM
#88
Registered User
09-21-2010, 05:34 PM
#90
Registered User
If you buy your parts from engine builder ask him about cams, if your happy with the stock cam then stay with it, but he also has a crawler cam that gives you a nice increase in low to mid range power that would also be a good choice for you, or he has a top end cam that makes power in the upper rpm range, but i don`t think that would be a good choice for a daily driver.
09-21-2010, 06:44 PM
#91
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Suisun City, California
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I put a crawler cam in my girlfriends 4runner. It was nice to have a little bit more power in the lower rmp range and it didn't notice any less power up to 5000rmp. My 4runner has a stock cam. There is not a huge difference between the 2 cams but it is noticeable. Because you are buying a new one I would go with the crawler cam. If you had a usable cam I don't know that I would upgrade.
09-21-2010, 08:41 PM
#92
Contributing Member
Thread Starter
Ted at Enginebuilder wrote back stating that the rockers look like they have overheated due to lack of lubrication. Possibly the rocker towers were swapped with the oil gally's in the wrong positions.
My concern would be swapping in a cam shaft on my current valve and valve spring setup. I'm sure it wouldn't be smart, but I can't really dish out $500 for an entire brand new head :/
Maybe I should look into a junkyard head assembly and see if that fixes anything.
My concern would be swapping in a cam shaft on my current valve and valve spring setup. I'm sure it wouldn't be smart, but I can't really dish out $500 for an entire brand new head :/
Maybe I should look into a junkyard head assembly and see if that fixes anything.
09-21-2010, 09:22 PM
#93
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian, I recieved your PM, and have read all of this thread, It does sound like that aftermarket cam is causing your problems. To answer your questions.........
1: When you change the cam or rockers you have to change the head gasket. ( I know some people have managed to do this without changing it but that is inviting trouble.)
1B: As a side note, Head Bolts should always be changed with a headgasket replacement. Napa can order them from Altrom at a very reasonable price for a full set.
2: Toyota makes a great product, don't try to re-engineer it. I would suggest a Stock OEM cam. "RV" cams by themselves do little to nothing. They give about 3-5 hp gian, and lower the torque curve. Again by it's self the cam is almost not noticable.
**** this is the important part. It is of my opinion that aftermarket cams blanks of any type are highly suspect at best for quality. Many companies supply re-ground FACTORY cams, that is what I would suggest. We all buy Toyotas because of their high quality, why put anything less into it? A local Cam regrind company should also supply reconditioned Rocker Arms as well. IF you can't find a local shop call, Delta Camshaft in Tacoma Wa. (253) 572-2474 They are a large well established company that sells re-ground factory cams and also have the rocker arms in stock, or fully assembled rocker arm assemblies as well.
3: As mentioned by XXXtream there is ABSOLUTELY NO replacement for Rocker Arms other than Factory OEM parts. Since they are too expensive for the average person to buy new, the next best thing is reconditioned used Factory ones.
4: YOUR HEAD is probably an ITM or EPWI head. All the parts are very servicable except the cam. I have a nickle that says "EP-32" is stamped into that cam.
Your head is almost new. ANY reputable machine shop can vacuum test the valves without pulling them to veryify that they are still sealing properly. They can also preasure check it, and check it to make sure it's still straight. ( if the cam turns easily with the Rocker Arm Shaft Assembly off the head it is most likely still straight) This should cost around 50-75 dollars, Worst case would be to have it "rebuilt" 150.00 Which is much less expensive than buying another new head. IF the going rate is very high to have a local shop look at your head and you have to get a new one for some reason. Sunwest Automotive Engines, http://www.sunwestautomotiveengines.com/ch-toyota.html Engnbldr, 22re.com, all have great products
5: Gaskets. I recomend a Victor Reinz Head Gasket, all the other gaskets are unimportant, but that headgasket has a tough job and some are just not up to the task.
1: When you change the cam or rockers you have to change the head gasket. ( I know some people have managed to do this without changing it but that is inviting trouble.)
1B: As a side note, Head Bolts should always be changed with a headgasket replacement. Napa can order them from Altrom at a very reasonable price for a full set.
2: Toyota makes a great product, don't try to re-engineer it. I would suggest a Stock OEM cam. "RV" cams by themselves do little to nothing. They give about 3-5 hp gian, and lower the torque curve. Again by it's self the cam is almost not noticable.
**** this is the important part. It is of my opinion that aftermarket cams blanks of any type are highly suspect at best for quality. Many companies supply re-ground FACTORY cams, that is what I would suggest. We all buy Toyotas because of their high quality, why put anything less into it? A local Cam regrind company should also supply reconditioned Rocker Arms as well. IF you can't find a local shop call, Delta Camshaft in Tacoma Wa. (253) 572-2474 They are a large well established company that sells re-ground factory cams and also have the rocker arms in stock, or fully assembled rocker arm assemblies as well.
3: As mentioned by XXXtream there is ABSOLUTELY NO replacement for Rocker Arms other than Factory OEM parts. Since they are too expensive for the average person to buy new, the next best thing is reconditioned used Factory ones.
4: YOUR HEAD is probably an ITM or EPWI head. All the parts are very servicable except the cam. I have a nickle that says "EP-32" is stamped into that cam.
Your head is almost new. ANY reputable machine shop can vacuum test the valves without pulling them to veryify that they are still sealing properly. They can also preasure check it, and check it to make sure it's still straight. ( if the cam turns easily with the Rocker Arm Shaft Assembly off the head it is most likely still straight) This should cost around 50-75 dollars, Worst case would be to have it "rebuilt" 150.00 Which is much less expensive than buying another new head. IF the going rate is very high to have a local shop look at your head and you have to get a new one for some reason. Sunwest Automotive Engines, http://www.sunwestautomotiveengines.com/ch-toyota.html Engnbldr, 22re.com, all have great products
5: Gaskets. I recomend a Victor Reinz Head Gasket, all the other gaskets are unimportant, but that headgasket has a tough job and some are just not up to the task.
Last edited by Trainwreckinseattle; 09-21-2010 at 09:27 PM.
09-21-2010, 09:57 PM
#94
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry this statement is false.
22re.com sells three brands of heads.
AMC ---- This is a very high quality head
Topline ---- This is also a very high quality head
Altrom --- This head is an "economy" head. It also works very well. I use them all the time, have 10 of them on the shelf right now.
*** Note ITM and EPWI heads are "economy" heads as well.
A customer of mine purchased a bare head, SS valves, and RV springs from Engnbldr a little while ago, and wanted me to build his long block. I pulled one of my ALTROM heads out of a box and set them side by side. They look like EXACT same castings right down to small imperfections in the mold. Now I can't be 100% where the original source was for the Engnbldr head was but It looks like it is purchased through Altrom.
*** keep in mind MOST large shops purchase a LOT of parts through Altrom, but I can't be sure where EB gets all his new head castings.
I will leave the supposition to the reader here. Set them side by side like I did and look for yourself. Quality parts from quality retailers are all decent. Engnbldr has many great products, so does 22re.com and many other companies. I'm simply pointing out many times they are all selling the same parts reboxed or re-labeled.
22re.com sells three brands of heads.
AMC ---- This is a very high quality head
Topline ---- This is also a very high quality head
Altrom --- This head is an "economy" head. It also works very well. I use them all the time, have 10 of them on the shelf right now.
*** Note ITM and EPWI heads are "economy" heads as well.
A customer of mine purchased a bare head, SS valves, and RV springs from Engnbldr a little while ago, and wanted me to build his long block. I pulled one of my ALTROM heads out of a box and set them side by side. They look like EXACT same castings right down to small imperfections in the mold. Now I can't be 100% where the original source was for the Engnbldr head was but It looks like it is purchased through Altrom.
*** keep in mind MOST large shops purchase a LOT of parts through Altrom, but I can't be sure where EB gets all his new head castings.
I will leave the supposition to the reader here. Set them side by side like I did and look for yourself. Quality parts from quality retailers are all decent. Engnbldr has many great products, so does 22re.com and many other companies. I'm simply pointing out many times they are all selling the same parts reboxed or re-labeled.
09-21-2010, 10:07 PM
#95
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Possibly the rocker towers were swapped with the oil gally's in the wrong positions.
IF this were the case I would expect ALL of the exhaust lobes to be damaged. If the towers are installed wrong it blocks oil from reaching the entire exhaust side of the Rocker Arm Assembly.
My concern would be swapping in a cam shaft on my current valve and valve spring setup. I'm sure it wouldn't be smart, but I can't really dish out $500 for an entire brand new head :/
There should be no problems with using the head and a stock set of Rockers and a stock cam. Test everything well, and make sure to install everything correctly and you will be ok.
Maybe I should look into a junkyard head assembly and see if that fixes anything.
IF this were the case I would expect ALL of the exhaust lobes to be damaged. If the towers are installed wrong it blocks oil from reaching the entire exhaust side of the Rocker Arm Assembly.
My concern would be swapping in a cam shaft on my current valve and valve spring setup. I'm sure it wouldn't be smart, but I can't really dish out $500 for an entire brand new head :/
There should be no problems with using the head and a stock set of Rockers and a stock cam. Test everything well, and make sure to install everything correctly and you will be ok.
Maybe I should look into a junkyard head assembly and see if that fixes anything.
You never know what your getting when you purchase a used junkyard head, it could have all kinds of flaws. Junkyard heads should be considered "CORES" only. Unless price is of utmost importance to get someone by.
09-21-2010, 11:09 PM
#96
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh yeah one more thing the 180* thermostat is for Carburated 22R's
I have had problems with cheep MotoRad brand thermostats and now only use either Super Stant, or OEM Toyota
180* = Carburated 22R
192* = EFI 22RE (Super Stant only sells a 195*)
IF the cooling system is in good condition and you don't live in Death Valley it's important to use the correct temperature thermostat especially with the computer controlled EFI 22RE.
I have had problems with cheep MotoRad brand thermostats and now only use either Super Stant, or OEM Toyota
180* = Carburated 22R
192* = EFI 22RE (Super Stant only sells a 195*)
IF the cooling system is in good condition and you don't live in Death Valley it's important to use the correct temperature thermostat especially with the computer controlled EFI 22RE.
09-22-2010, 07:20 AM
#97
Contributing Member
Thread Starter
Wow! Thank you for the replies I do appreciate it!!
I just emailed Delta camshaft for a price request for a reground cam shaft and reground rocker arms.
I'll go ahead and pull the head, send to our local machine shop to have it tested and see if they need to do a valve job. I'll buy a new factory cam, rocker arms, get a new head gasket, head bolts, etc..
The new head/cam/valves that are on my truck right now.... The PO said "oversized" valves. It keeps making me wonder if I'll need to put in stock valves as well. Should I just tell the machine shop to put in stock length valves? Or does oversized mean the diameter? ;/
Thanks everyone for your help. This has been a great learning experience for me.
I just emailed Delta camshaft for a price request for a reground cam shaft and reground rocker arms.
I'll go ahead and pull the head, send to our local machine shop to have it tested and see if they need to do a valve job. I'll buy a new factory cam, rocker arms, get a new head gasket, head bolts, etc..
The new head/cam/valves that are on my truck right now.... The PO said "oversized" valves. It keeps making me wonder if I'll need to put in stock valves as well. Should I just tell the machine shop to put in stock length valves? Or does oversized mean the diameter? ;/
Thanks everyone for your help. This has been a great learning experience for me.
09-22-2010, 08:18 AM
#99
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: memphis, tn
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These posts are actually helping me with an issue with my Jeep. I have gotten my Toyota T100 running finally and now it looks like I need to get a Jeep forum! I had to get my T100 running again after it had set up too long. I think I will be referring to these post for the Jeep too though. I have a low compression in cylinder #2 but stable in all others. This video that was posted reminds me of how rough its running. Guess I need to get back under the hood of that one and figure out its issues too...I've never changed compression rings on an engine before. Should be interesting......If anyone knows of a good Jeep forum, I need to pair up with it while I'm driving my Toyota again. Thinking the Toyota is the one I should have been driving all along! 
09-22-2010, 09:42 AM
#100
Oversized valves... more warnings. This is a reconditioned head, be sure to check the exhaust ports for corrosion, yea I know broken record. If they are junk best to find now and not after $$$ is spent. Budgets are tight everywhere.
Get a mild reground Japanese cam, beware of Chinese steel because its softer. Never had that on my Crower or Crane cams.....
Get a mild reground Japanese cam, beware of Chinese steel because its softer. Never had that on my Crower or Crane cams.....
