mt_goat

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum...ad.php?t=95993

Actually its just the Tacomas, not the 4runners.

76ANTHONY

my question would be this, why wouldnt a manufacturer come up with a head gasket that seals the two metals perfectly? it really cant be that hard to come up with a head gasket that seals pefectly, would it?
dont take this in anyway as a bashing at all, this is just something i think of when i see 5 hundred write-ups on head gasket failures.
has there been any tests on who has the best head gasket and if so, where could i find that info?
thanks

TOYOTA 1

i have never bought any rock knock products my self. but a a cupple of my friends have. and both motors, both times, started knocking. so we pulled them apart only to find that the bearings had failed. it wasnt a normal failure where some brass would be showing, or some grooves in them. i mean they started flaking apart in big chunks, like where the 2 metals are bonded together. not only that, they are the cheapest parts on e-bay, and most of the other sellers had nothing good to say about rock! i also think that foreign parts are the best parts for foreign engines.

foot0069

Dave's added edit makes a lot of sense to me. I did use Ted's hg last year when I reassembled my 22re. Only about 3000 miles since but no problems yet. I'm a bit worried though as I used a shim after the machine shop had to cut the head so far. The po had warped the dickens out of it due to not cleaning the block holes out. And I really wished I had talked to Ted about his method of seating the new bolts, good thinking there. Great info here. Would this post rate a sticky. Sure do see a lot of questions about this topic.
Jim

mt_goat

The problem with the dissimilar metals is they have different thermal expansion rates causing a lot of movement between the two. Each time the engine is heated and cooled the material between is stressed out. I was happy to see my Taurus engine had an iron head to match the iron block. An aluminum block and head would be sweet too I guess.

DaveInDenver

It's not to say that only Toyota can make good headgaskets, just saying that I'd expect that they would have a pretty decent shot at getting the right spec for their engines. I mean lots of companies makes iron block/aluminum head engines and lots of them work just fine with HGs made by various companies. I tend to stick with Toyota on things that seem to me that they have the best chance of designing the right part. But they are subject to the same manufacturing issue and price/performance constraints as anyone, so no one company is perfect.

thook

This is a good example of yer eggs in one basket. For all I know, Rock may not even make their own gaskets.....maybe even the same for their bearings. So, maybe Rock sells good gaskets, just not bearings. Research is all I can say about that.

FWIW, you'll notice engnbldr uses King bearings....not Rock. King is a good brand to go with. They do make theirs.

When I rebuilt my 22re back in Jan., I spent a lot of time reading and talking to different people (with experience) about components to use for the build. If I'd had lots of money I wouldn't hesitate to go with Toyota labels. From the research I'd done, they do have some of the highest standards in the business. But, for those of us who'd rather have something left over just to buy.....let's say...umm.. BEER!....it pays to explore options.

I decided on Fel-Pro gaskets, Clevite bearings (which is no longer made by "Clevite"...the name was bought, but I forget by whom), egnbldr timing/front end kit, and Hastings rings. I followed the FSM, engnbdlr, and Haynes (for simple crap) guidelines and the tips of experienced builders I know. Aside from a failing AFM and shot for caca idle air valve, the motor sounds solid, quiet, and performs very well. Not to brag, but my rebuild has been highly complimented by folks who's words mean something to me.

This is only to say, again, research. Find out who is actually making what as much as you can. Google searches will only take you so far, but dig around and you'll be surprised. When you're confident you've made solid decisions on your parts, follow the recipe closely and birthday cake you will have.

And, let's not forget some of what we read about people's horrible experiences were not due to a brand name and it's product, but some oversite they made during assembly or maintenance. There are easy mistakes to make, and it's just as easy to blame the product itself.

TOYOTA 1

Red_Chili

No, it isn't hard. Just expensive. You can use a MLS headgasket if you like, and it will seal perfectly and last longer (nothing is infinite). But to do so you must machine the block and head to a near mirror finish. Doable.

Everything has a service life. I would venture to guess that many of the HG failures (on 22REs at least) are on motors where one or more of the following are true:
1) the motor has been overheated, either by maintenance neglect or abuse (the radiators develop a pinhole leak after a long while, especially if the coolant is not refreshed, and without pressure the coolant boils at a lower temp)
2) Coolant has not been changed regularly
3) Timing chain was changed, but not the HG, following some of the shortcuts publicized on the web.
4) Timing chain and HG were changed, but only cursory care was given to inspecting the block deck and head surface. A tiny imperfection here can be disastrous over time.

Headgaskets have a service life, and it is only a bit longer (IMHO) than the timing chain. A timing chain and HG every 120K or so is something I can live with.

The Chili's original 22RE lost a headgasket and had a damaged deck around fire ring #3 (a hot spot from what I have seen) due to the PO's not changing the coolant regularly, and using Stop-Leak for a probable radiator pinhole leak. Even so, that was at 147K miles. The timing chain and headgasket should have been replaced at ~120K, and if they had, that motor would still be running as-is in someone's rig somewhere.

Based on Ted's experience over decades with the headgasket he sells, I feel comfortable returning the Toyota HG to the dealer.

Red_Chili

So you have no experience with their headgaskets then?

Red_Chili

I'll come drink your beer and make a lot of mistakes if you like...

Most of what I learn came from the latter. I'm still 'learning', if you take my meaning...



I do have a reputation in our club for being a perfectionist and persnickety on the details though.

Kaydon

I use Fel Pro.

Works fine.

DaveInDenver

I think #1 and particularly #2 are the most common denominators. I think we've talked about it before, if you follow the FSM procedure you pull the head when you do a timing chain. I've wondered if that was written knowing the design service life of the HG was roughly the same as the timing parts or not. Anyway, I think not flushing the coolant often enough is probably the biggest reason for premature HG failure. All that scale, rust, acidic combustion byproducts and junk can't be good for the HG. When I did the timing at 145K I left the head in place, dropped the pan and being careful you can minimally disturb the HG. Mine didn't show evidence of abnormal wear at the front by the timing cover, the most obvious spot that a failure might have happened was at #3. Still, even though I didn't really see an impending failure at 187K when the rebuild schedule was grossly accelerated, I do agree based on the way mine looked overall that going beyond 150K is really not ideal.