JDMSLIK

Hey man if you want to try a sea foam cure I'll try and sit down later tonite and write up a procedure and explain the risks your taking.

ozziesironmanoffroad

oki sounds good id appreciate it

abecedarian

seafoam will not clean the carbon out of the EGR passages. the passages are blocked from the intake by the EGR valve. it will need to be removed to clean the passages.

abecedarian

Just because it is 'looking like combustion is complete' you're willing to write it off?
google "high NOx cause" and read a few of the results. you'll notice that there are several that mention good HC, CO and CO2 levels but high NOx. At least one mentions an exhaust leak as a possible cause, and several others mention converter.
Now, unless the tailpipe sniffer is reading the emissions ahead of the converter, there's no easy way of knowing whether it's complete combustion or converter action making it.

JDMSLIK

Your starting to frustrate me here. I think this is turning into an Ego thing instead of helping out with a diagnostic request for a guy with limited funds.

So my question is what would you recommend this guy do to fix his nox problem?

ozziesironmanoffroad

oh, and you cant say 'do a 3.4 swap' or 'rebuild it with an engnbldr cam' or something... lol

lotalucas

when you smog it put accetone in the fuel. not to much it bumps up the octane level a lot. it makes your engine burn hotter and in turn cleaner. It also helps gas milage. but dont do it much cuz it messes with the efi. If it's carberated it's fine but when i did it in my 90 pu. it made the torque all wierd. just about 6 ounces for 10 gallons right before you go to smog it.

abecedarian

The only ego I see is one that appears willing to dismiss possible and/or probable causes on the basis of numbers on a sheet of paper.

There are many potential causes of high NOx among which includes:
lean mixture
incorrect ignition timing
abnormal engine temperature
EGR valve, passages, electronics, vacuum hoses
catalytic converter (only has to be partially plugged)
exhaust leaks
high compression / carbon build up
worn / incorrect heat range spark plugs

so by cost (lowest to highest, provided tools are already owned):
-set the timing to spec- 5 btdc
-compression check & if higher than spec, attempt decarbonization of pistons and chambers with either water spray and/or solvent (seafoam) administered through vacuum port on manifold (preferably small port, not pcv or brake booster so as to not overwhelm engine with solvent)
-check operation of EGR valve and condition of vacuum lines
-replace plugs with correct or 1-2 steps colder
-disassemble EGR system and clean passages, replacing gaskets as required
-flush cooling system, replacing thermostat
-verify fan clutch operation, replacing if necessary
-check for exhaust leaks, replacing gaskets etc. as necessary
-check fuel mixture and correct if necessary
-check cat converter

did I miss anything?
Some of the things are beyond the average home mechanic such as fuel mixture and cat test and correction.

lol. I wouldn't do that to you.

check and clean out the EGR passages if you can, check for vacuum leaks and replace the hoses, try the decarbonize the engine thing with water or seafoam or berrymans, set the timing down to 3-5 btdc (you're at 7, right?).
run the engine till you're below 1/4 (or at least enough to get to and through the test then back home), add a can of octane boost or 1qt methanol or acetone. and try again.

ozziesironmanoffroad

yeah, and it burns too hot, and it could burn up my head or a valve. no thank you. lol.

JDMSLIK

oh my God I'm done with this.

I can't disagree with any of the procedures you recommended.
But really, it's almost overkill. Has there been any other complaints along the lines of overheating, lack of power etc.
Seriously, you've been pushing and pushing and now I assume you google a list and come up with your procedure. Does the guy even own a timing light?
and let's take into consideration the guy has a tough time pulling his #4 spark plug. (No offense, at the moment I'm doing a set on a 5.4 ford, plugs aren't always easy.)

And yes I'm willing to write off certain items because of readings on a peice of paper. Have you spent any time on a 5 gas anylyzer? You don't get a day to diagnose an emissions fault in the real world. But if you got the time go for it.
Here's one last question. In case of a partially clogged cat how would the HC look?

JDMSLIK

This is a great fix for high HC, but just makes nox worse. Also methyl hydrate works too.

abecedarian

you're safe up to about 10:1 gas to acetone.
that's why I said drive down to about 1/4 tank (about 4 gallons) and 1 quart acetone or methanol. 4 gallons=16 quarts so 16:1 is what I called out.
You'd only run the mix for the test. Afterwards, fill the tank to at least 3/4.

ozziesironmanoffroad

hm. but yeah adding acetone will increase nox since it will burn HOTTER. i need it to burn COLDER. and yes, to answer JDM, yes i own a timing light, its timed at 3 degrees BTDC, last time it overheated was 3 years ago, and i immediately shut it off and didnt touch it for 6 hours, then i replaced the thermostat(stuck closed). no lack of power, well, not for a 22RE, anyway... yeah ive spent some time on a 5 gas machine, and at the time, it was putting out very low emmissions. (about 6 months ago). and with a clogged cat, i think the HC would be through the roof, since there wouldnt be much flow. plus the cat would be red hot, screamin "HEY! LOOK at ME! im HOT! IM HOT!",. i know the last couple werent for me, but thought id answer em anyway.

abecedarian

I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to help the man learn what can affect his engine and how.
As for overheating, you don't have to "overheat" to be too hot. Learned that on my 91. Same problem- everything looked peach but the NOx. My wife knew the people there so they let her come back a few times. Unfortunately I wasn't there but after the first trip in I was asking her questions and found out they didn't put a fan in front of the truck when on the dyno. She went back, and they tested again and shot temps on the themostat- 208. She yelled, they got the fan out and the outlet dropped to 192 and passed the NOx. 208 happens to land just below 3/4 on the dash temp gauge and the truck gets there regularly in summer.

I've owned an 89 camaro rs and have a 72 firebird w/ 400 pontiac. I know about spark plugs.I'm typically the kind of person that once I've seen a circumstance create a problem, I tend to zone in on that circumstance initially, but am open to discussion of other avenues.
My experience: could test fine. My 81 scirocco went through that.
However, notice the engine rpm's never exceed 2600 in the test so there may be sufficient catalyst to affect the reactions but enough blockage to induce backpressure.

We may disagree on the execution but the outcome I assume we agree with- help get the truck repaired.

JDMSLIK

K I'm pretty bad at this online forum stuff sometimes so I apoligize if I got a little hasty there. I'm just gonna leave it alone and keep going with this.

Ozzie you got a timing light eh, that's a bonus. And you understand the five gas a bit. You said you hooked up the gas analyzer about 6 months ago and the readings were pretty good. This would have been good to hear about a page ago.lol
Were you on a dyno or was it a no load situation with just the machine?
Was it at idle or a steady rev?
Do you remeber your nox readings?
Is there anything else concerning engine performance that has happened or has been repaired in the last 6 months to a year that you might have left out?

ozziesironmanoffroad

dont remember the readings. it wasnt on a dyno. (in vegas they dont use a dyno, and as far as i know, dont test for NOx. ) it was a no load situation. checked at idle and at 2500 rpm

JDMSLIK

This guy's list is a pretty bang. So I'll add a little and take away a little and suggest a couple pointers. Anybody wanna make a sugestion go for it, I'll probably ask for a second opnion anyway. The goal is less combustion heat.

your timing:
Your at 3 BDTC, I don't know how much of a difference 3 and 5 will produce. So I'd say stick with 3, I figure less burn time less heat. Also make sure you got a good set of plugs in there and your cap/rotor are fresh looking.

Your combustion chamber:
I've never had the oppourtunity to observe how a carboned motor affects compression check. So if you can why not.
As far as decarbonizing goes, you gotta be real careful here. The risk your taking with chemically removing carbon from a cylinder is there's a possibity you could be removing carbon that is acting as a seal for a worn part.

That being said does anyone know if the 22re has a cam position where all the valves are closed?
For the procedure pull your plugs. I'd buy 4 cans of carb clean. Every morning and night spray in each plug hole and let it sit over the day and the night till you run out of carb clean. Morning- 1 can carb clean, Night -1 can carb clean
etc.
If you wanna use sea foam, I don't know that stuff at all. To be honest I never even heard of it till I came on this site. I don't even know if they sell it in Canada, well at least not in my neck of the woods.

Your EGR:
With your engine idling, push up on the diaphram and see if it bogs the engine out. Do it a couple times making sure the plunger is sliding smoothly in there.
Does anyone know if the modulator is vacumm or solenoid controlled?
There's a couple vacuum lines, make sure there fitting tight and also there clear of debris, so just give em a suck.

Cooling system:
You said it overheated a while ago so your replaced the thermostat and coolant. The thermostat should still be good and just make sure your coolant is topped off.
Also when it's cold I'd take a garden hose and give the fins of your radiator a good flush. Get any dirt or whatever out of there.
Also start your truck up and make sure that fan engages.

The only other point the guy made that I question is adding stuff to your fuel. Octane boost, methanol or acetone would probably increase his combustion temperature? I never used any of em. But I've heard people recommend that stuff for HC issues and it works cause it burns hotter. I've personally used methyl hydrate cause it's cheap and I always seem to have some sitting around.

The main thing I'd recommend is do some specific research on that conditional pass and how you can get it. You still might fail, it happens.

SEAIRESCUE

Spent 4 years in So Cal, Chula Vista, in the early 70's when it was a nice State. Since then, the Lib Turds have decided that it will be their haven, headquartered in SF. Got to shake your head when Diane Feinstein and the Terminator make decisions for all of you. Of course, we all know that he gets his daily marching orders from....Ta Da....Ted Kennedy.

All of you normal people need to vote those jack asses out of office. If you don't then your children will need to obtain a minor in Spanglish just to survive the future and read the signs. Just look at Miami to see what is coming.

ozziesironmanoffroad

okay, good news. got the egr CLEANED out, it was filthy. cleaned out the passages. failed. so i said screw it and took it to my dads mechanic. i told him what was up, he said give me 280 and ill replace the cat and guarentee it passes smog this time and next time. so i said okay. put a new cat on it, he removed the egr valve, cleaned it, cleaned the passages, cleaned the other egr thing(cant remember what its called ATM) put it back together, put a new cat on, and it passed with flying colors. max is like 1000 something, its putting out like 400. so i passed, and tomorrow she will be 100% legally registered. now my question is: when i got it back today, the thing hesitates and jerks. i thought it was cuz it was cold. let it warm up, a little better, but still doin it. so i call the guy and ask him if they messed with the timing to get it to pass. they said no, but bring it up and ill check. so i did. he said nothings wrong. i was like, 'bulls***!' so he hopped in and i took him for a drive. thing was shakin and sputterin pretty good. he said its normal cuz the clutch is covered in oil. i was like, i doubt it, since before i brought it to you it wasnt doing that. he said 'well the cat was bad, had no flow, and now with the new one you have flow, and have more power, so its going to slip more.' it kind of makes sense, but it kind of sounds like hes trying to get around something he did. now i know the clutch is oil covered, but it wasnt doing that before. does what he told me make any kind of sense at all? im going to check the timing myself if i get some free time tonight.

Jay351

How the heck is your clutch covered in oil? And how the hell would the mechanic know without pulling parts in that area?

I don't want to sound like a jerk or anything, but this mechanic sounds a little on the shady side to me... If I take my truck to a mechanic I ALWAYS stay and watch over whats going on.