northlander

Does anyone have any experience with Downey's long travel kit?
http://www.downeyoff-road.com/Catalog/index.htm
I like the fact that it's only 2" wider rather than the usual 3-3.5 on other kits but I've heard a few bad things about them. The biggest question, is it worth it?

Yota82

There has been a thread about this before. First off let me say that I think Downey is a very reputable company and had a big influence on Toyota innovations. In fact my dad used to be sponsored by Downey in the early and mid 80's. Unfortunantly I feel that Downey is behind the curve when it comes to IFS stuff. I have been following their new long travel IFS suspension for 2 years now and was extremely intreasted when it finally came out. It's a very original idea to have a long travel system that is only 2" wider and can still acchieve 12"-13" of travel but my whole problem woth it is the use of stock steering components and stock lower balljoints. Downey refers to heims and uni-balls as "highly perishable" when in reality a uniball is stronger than a BJ and a heim is stronger than a tie rod, also in a long travel application uniballs and heims allow more movement without binding like a stock tie rod and BJ will do with 12"-13" of travel. Also Downey's reasoning for not using uniballs or heims is because the kit is only 2" wider as compaired to 3.5" so there is no need for that kind of equipment. BUT 12"-13" of travel is the same weather the arms are extended 2" or 100". You also have to buy the Porche 930 CV's to retain 4WD as compaired to T100 axles which are cheap. I would rather have a wider more stable at speed long travel system that uses heims and uniballs and 4WD but not using exotic parts like Porche CV's. I definantly think that Downey needs to re word their descriptions because a lot of it makes me question their knowlege and ethics. It sounds like a bash of other companies products. Downey uses the 2 biggest weak points in a properly designed long travel system. I wouldn't buy it.

Yota82

One thing I forgot to mention is the use of torsion bars which is another weak point of a long travel IFS system. When I used to run torsion bars with 13" of travel I broke the sockets 3 times in a year and a half as well as lower BJ's every 3 months (if I was lucky) and countless broken or worn out tie rods.

MonsterMaxx

so what do you like for a long travel suspension?

Yota82

Total Chaos Generation II kit with coilovers and T100 axles and a lower uniball conversion with the heim steering upgrade.

FredTJ

A couple of points, and I'm not defending Downey or anyone else.

Yota82 wrote:
To me Downey's statement is true.
"Highly perishable" does not mean stronger.

No one is questioning the strenght of heims, etc., but the DURABILITY..
Big difference.

One can buy very strong heims, but the *durability* isn't there.

No question that TRE's are more *durable* then heims when used within each's range of motion.

We've tried I don't know how many types of heims and out here in the SW they simply aren't *durable*.

They wear very quickly and worn steering components is no fun in a DD.

We use heims in the steering components of the Sprint cars, BUT we have to change them often.

As it is now, I (and others who have tried 'em) simply won't use heims in any steering component in a vehicle used as a DD.

Porsche 930 CV's have a long and proven record of strength, range of motion, and durability.
I simply don't see anything wrong using them.

One could argue cost, but no one ever has claimed that 4 wheeling beyond pretty mild stuff is inexpensive.
In fact, building a capable, durable, and correctly built rig, is very expensive.

With the Jeep I had finally built it into an awesome rock crawler while still fully functional as a DD, but it wasn't easy and it wasn't inexpensive.

I fully agree that coilovers are certainly a good way to go, but I do not like the super control a-arms that go with those kits. Much too wide of a front track compared to the rear. That's really more for the off road racers.

It wouldn't be too hard to fab up mounts for CO's that use the stock length a-arms or arms a little longer, like maybe the ones that Downey furnishes.

For me, for the moment, the first build is going to be a BJ spacers, 2" rear coils, shocks all four corners, 2" bl, "tummy tuck", push up gas tank and maybe a skid for it, front disco's or looking at installing an A/R, front and rear diff guards, sliders, bumpers and that'll allow me to run 33's with a far amount of flex in the front and good flex in the rear and should take me on most of the trails that I use to run in the Jeep, except for the most extreme of 'em.




Fred

Yota82

I understand how heims can be concidered "perishable" but in truth they are not as perishable as a tie rod with a *long travel application* ("long travel application" is the key word here not sprint cars) Tie rods aren't made to move that much that's why they last soo long on a street only truck with stock suspension, so long as they are within the boundries of what they are designed for they will be fine. The truth lies in the broken parts list for me. Tie rods being on the top of that list. I really don't understand your logic when you say that the "super control a-arms are much too wide... more for off road racers." What exactly constitutes too wide? Is it the look of being too wide that you don't like? It serves a couple purposes 1. Overall travel 2. Overall stability. If you are concerned about 3" of overall track width gain from purchasing a 2" wider kit campaired to a 3.5" wider kit than you need to really think about why that is. That's only 1.5" per side. I think Downey is smart for wording it like they did weather I agree with it or not because choice wording sells to the inexperenced consumer. If you really think that a stock tie rod and BJ will last with that kind of extreme movement than that shows how little about long travel IFS you actually know. The advantages to a heim in place of a tie rod are simple, they are double sheared and are capable of moving vertically more than a single sheared tie rod which will bind at a *long travel application* suspensions full droop and full compression. That makes them more durable than a tie rod in a *long travel application*. Same rule applies to a ball joint. Stock movement was what BJ's and tie rods were designed to do. I have broken a lot of tie rods and replaced a lot of ball joints and never once have I ever broken a heim or ever replaced a uni ball. Piece of mind if you will, you get what you pay for. Like I said before 12" of travel with 2" wider arms is the same as 12" of travel with 100" wider arms the tie rods and BJ's will move the same. 12"-13" is too much movement for those 2 components long travel companies know this thats why there is an option to upgrade. Downey doesn't see this for whatever reason.

deathrunner

Actually, if you were to get 12-13" of travel out of 100" wider arms, the bj would move very little compare to the movement of stock arms with 12-13".

But that also point out that a bj moves MORE distance with 2" wider arms than they would with 3" wider arms, making the Downey kit even more ridiculous.

Anyone who is into Long travel setup would look at the new downey arms and dissaprove.

FR_Javier

i have the TC Gen II caddy kit sitting in the corner next to my other go fast parts....TC makes some awesome stuff

RallyToy

I'm actually trying to decide between the Downey LT kit and the Total Chaos Gen II myself. I run in a lot of muddy/wet areas so it seems like the uni-balls would be worn rather quickly since they have no boot/grease. They would never fail/break, but they would get sloppy. The ball joints would hold up with the daily driving aspects, but seem like they would give out under abuse/frequent full compression pretty quickly.

Again, I have no experience with either, and am trying to make the decision myself. Those are the issues I see as critical to the decision.

I have also heard that the Total Chaos (Gen II) is a much plusher and more adjustable ride than Downey. Torsion bars are rather finite when it comes to different spring rate options, unless I've missed a vendor or two out there.

Is it worth it? Either way, the ride quality is going to be much, much better than stock, both on and off-road. I've ridden in a TC lifted truck, and it was very plush.

Yota82

Uni-balls are teflon coated/self-lubricating. Grease will make them loud and squeal and damage the teflon coating.

ewong

I posted a similar Q with respect to Uniballs/Heims on the VWVortex list with respect to the SRS kit for "race" cars on a MKII VW.

The general statement was from SRS - I woulnt run them in MY street car - manily due to "harshness" of the suspension. Many of their customer's run the full heim suspension year round in New England. No lube nor any NEED for lube.

It appears that the issue is making sure that the tolerences are TIGHT on the joints.

But since Ive never done it I cant say for sure.

I WOULD want to mount any rod end in DOUBLE shear for a street car (means modded spindles for the rod ends.

fthertime666

downeys new kit seems very similar to wcor old kits, same cvs, same arm length that brian894x4 used to run. I think he was pretty pleased about its
performance, (except for the eventual failing of the wcor a-arm) I dont think he is the high speed whoops type though.

RallyToy

Not specific enough on my part. Sorry about that. I was trying to say that it would seem a uni-ball exposed to the elements would wear out more quickly than a sealed and greased ball joint under normal conditions. Not implying that a uni-ball should be greased!

Again, I've never run uni-balls and am trying to make the decision between the two systems myself.

As a side note, I spoke with Downey a few months ago, and they are planning on coming out with a coilover mod for their existing setup.

ewong

RallyToy:

I am still trying to reconcile what FredTJ says (and Ive heard before) with what the guys at SRS say (with respect to Uniballs).

It may be that uniballs last and heims do not - which makes no sense as as far as I can tell they are functionally the same (except for how they mount).

Been debating the TC LT kit for a Gen1 4Runner

RallyToy

ewong:

I agree, heims and uniballs would seem functionally the same to me as well. Whichever kit I go with, I'm probably going to go with the stock steering linkage at first, since I wouldn't have to do the drilling required for the heim retrofit. If it fails quickly, the heim option is still there.

I'm currently running the SDORI BJ spacers and OME torsion bars/shocks with low profile snubbers. It made a huge difference over stock for the price, but I'm ready to step up the travel.

Has anyone run the OME torsion bars with the Downey kit? Their spring rate is about halfway between stock and Downey's heavy duty ones. I removed the Downey torsions-they were too harsh.

Another plus of the Downey kit is that they still have a provision for the sway bar, which helps in the daily driver category.

ewong

Im running 300M torsion bars and I tossed the front sway bar.
I did the same on my DD VW.. Stiffer springs make up for the lack of sway bar.

The steering linkages are all bolt on parts - swapping back and forth between the heim jointed and the ball jointed steerign shouldnt be too hard to do.

With all the SAS stuff going on - getting a spare setup isnt that hard

Dan90SR5

There have been several things on this thread that aren't right. First off, the Downey kit give the TOTAL increase in track width of 4" (2" per side) and the Total Chaos increases TOTAL track width by over 6" (I think their saite says something like 6.5").

I have looked at building my own long travel kit at some point. After I finally get my engine running, but that's another story. I see the plus of the Downey kit because of the smaller increase in track width. This makes the look of the truck better because it doesn't look as awkward. And with uniball joints this would be a very good kit. Ball joints are a very weak component of lifted suspensions. I've seen them break on all kinds of trucks.

Until Downey changes their kit, I would buy (or copy and fabricate my own) Total Chaos kit. They designed this kit and tested it with the initial set-up that Downey is using. They went out and beat these test trucks. They foud the weak points and went back to the drawing board. Built a better system and tested it. Then went back and improved in the second version. They still offer the cheaper system that Downey offers (with a wider track width), but they also offer a higher end kit that allows better operation from aggressive testing.

Yota82

What in this thread is not right?

Dan90SR5

You mentioned in one of your posts about the overall track width increase was 3" for the Total Choas kit. I'm sure it was a lapse in thought, but these kits are increase by 2" and 3" per side making the overall track width increase of 4" and according to Total 6.5" for their kit.

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, just make the correction in case a newbie reads this thread. Afterall, we both agree on the Total Chaos kit being the better of the two kits.