GreenPhoenix

Ok, so my motor should be back from the machine shop sometime next week so I can start putting everything together here's what I've got:

short deck block milled for flatness
22re head milled .080 (eighty thou) 48-49cc laid back and smoothed chambers
head port and polished by yours truly (flow numbers to follow)
port matched iintake and exhaust fully ported exhaust manifold
the dreaded Keith Black pistons @ .030
polished connecting rods and crank
lightened flywheel
lightened crank pulley
adjustable timing gear
DOA cam
engnbldr o/s ss valves back-cut at the machine shop bronze guides
22reperformance 75lb valve springs
lc crank scraper
clevite p-series rod bushings and engine bearing
balanced rotating assembly
no egr and no vacuume line
supra (7mge) 320cc cleaned and balanced injectors
fireball coil
stock throttle body
blocked off coolant lines

Depending on piston deck height and head gasket thickness/bore this should net between 10.5:1-11:1 compression. NOT a bench racing motor; I am going to start assembly next week and will be running the daylights out of it on the track in a few weeks. All the hand work\custom work has been done by me. I spent countless hours schmoozing parts this winter. The machine shop is finishing up sometime next week and I'll have flow numbers from the head soon to get my cam from Tim@DOA. Also I'm going to be running this thing on E85. I understand there will me some fairly in-depth tuning involved to get it running right and I'm looking forward to it. Not wanting to turn this into an E85 discussion so if you have something to say about E85 do hours of research first and think intelligently about what you are saying before you come out and say "YOU CANT DO THAT!" I would like input if anyone has sugguestions, constructive criticism welcome. I havent seen any details on a build quite like this, very few on one with this high of compression and nothing on any sort of a performance 22re running E85 (although the turbo guys mention it once in a while). I'll keep everyone posted on the build and the results.

gennro

Do you have to stay with the stock computer? That is going to be your biggest limiting factor.

GreenPhoenix

Ya, stock computer. I understand its less than optimal for performance but what do you see as most limiting about it.

gennro

Well for the stock computer is late 70's tech. AFM is really restrictive. It doesn't do that well with high lift cams. It is just flat out old. Very limited on the amount of tuning can be done. You can rougly tune the engine with the AFM.


You would honestly have better luck with a holley 500cfm carb or a weber 38/38. With a circle track engine all you care about for the most part is wide open throttle.

Vudujoose

Took the words out of my mouth. This was the first thing I thought of when you said stock ECU. I have an idea but I would need to get ahold of an ECU from a 22RE before talking much further about it, but I have some pretty extensive experience with Eproms and Eprom tuning but as I said I'm not familiar with the 22RE ECU.

The Carb sounds like an easier and slightly better performance idea.

EDIT: Could talk to the guy above me about a mega squirt setup, cheap and you seem to be motivated enough to learn how to tune it right.

snobdds

With what you plan on doing, the stock ECU is fine. There are plenty of people running a cam and exhaust with the stock ECU and no ill effects. I see no artificially aspirated applications here.

You have a cam and an exhaust. No matter what you do with the AFM, you still have a chock point at the throttle body and the upper intake runners.

I agree, a carb is your best bet. The entire intake side of a 22re is restrictive. The Carb will get you more out of your exhaust and cam...

GreenPhoenix

unfortunatly MS is out of the question. this motor is already "out of bounds" for the rules in my class. I mean I'm really pushing it here. Ive also looked into reprogramming the ECU but supposedly it is impossible without a piggyback. My somewhat philosophical view on the ECU is as follows:

The ECU only knows what it sees, it only sees what its sensors tell it. It is programmed to provide the proper abount of fuel based on the abount of incoming air. The amount of incoming air is determined mostly by the size of the engine and what rpm it is operating. It constantly adjusts injector pulse width based on rpm (airflow) and data from the O2 sensor. Temperature sensors might be a fine tune or determine close/open operation but in general AFM and O2 sensors dictate injector pulse width. The ECU DOES NOT know what SIZE injectors it is operating. I havent greatly changed the displacement of the motor. I believe stoich for E85 is roughly 30% more fuel than gasoline but can require as much as 50% more volume in practice. E85 is very forgiving of rich mixtures so I erred on the rich side when choosing my injectors (195-200cc stock to 320cc) O2 sensors detect amounts of free oxygen in the exhaust gas. it doesnt care what fuel you are running as long as its is burning at the proper ratio. The larger injectors allow for the ECU to operate at its normal pulse widths while still providing the proper volume of fuel. timing curves should be just as acceptable with this combination as they were stock, if knocking occurs the ECU will compensate, if the ECU cant compensate i'll manually retard the dizzy. physically tune what cant be tuned electronically (AFM). Cam selection will be extremely important, which is why I'm going through the trouble of flowing my head and having a custom stick ground.

if i'm way off here let me know but from the months of reading, research and thinking ive done I havent come up with a good reason why this wont work. I just havent found anyone thats done it before. Carb would be easier and AFM is the biggest physical restriction 100% agreement. E85 is something like the equivalent of 105 octane 30% oxygenated race fuel which is part of the reason why it requires richer a/f ratios and also why it is so tolerent of rich mixtures. 30% more oxygen without adding displacement to the engine. In my opinion that reduces the effect of the AFM as a limitation.

snobdds

The ECU is not programable. If it does not see the correct feed back from the sensors, it goes into closed loop. It then runs at pre determined fuel maps and it's basicaly on lock down to prevent engine damage.

As long as you keep the proper A/F ratio, you should be fine.

GreenPhoenix

No luck finding a shop around that can/will flow the head. One shop said they would try and subsequently said they had trouble actuating the valves accuratly. So with no flow numbers for the head I'm going to go with Engnbldr 270/430 cam. Got all my parts back from the machine shop and did some work on the block this weekend. Block prep should be done this week and I'll be starting assembly toward the end of the week. If EFI doesn't work out I have all the parts to convert to a carb but I would like to try EFI first. Does anyone have experience with ARP head studs? Ive heard the two between the exhaust ports can be get stuck and cause problems removing the head, but then again so can the stock bolts.

Dirt Driver

What do the class rules actually allow you to use for induction and fuel?

GreenPhoenix

It's basically a mini-stock class. There aren't any rules about fuel but it has to have stock manifolds. I relocated my AFM inside the cab and made an adapter to run a cone filter. I have a tube (exhaust pipe) running from the AFM inside the cab to the TB connected with rubber boots.

GreenPhoenix

If I went to a carbed setup I would have to run an Aisin if that's what you were getting at.

Dirt Driver

I was talking more about any rules that force you to use a factory ECU vs. stuffing a MegaSquirt inside the stock case...

GreenPhoenix

Not a bad idea. I've never held one so I don't have any idea if it would fit. It is in the rules that it has to be a factory ECU.

92dlxman

i am dying to hear about how this thing runs. please keep it coming

GreenPhoenix

Checked main bearing clearance tonight: 0.003, 0.002, 0.0025, 0.002, 0.0025 respectively. Toyota spec is 0.001-0.0022 with 0.0031 limit. Accepted clearance in the racing community is 0.001-0.0015 per 1" of journal size, which would be around 0.0023-0.0034. I would like them to be a little closer together and 0.0025 all the way across would be awesome but I believe they will be acceptable the way they are. I numbered them when I took them out so I get them back in the same order.


update 6-13-12:

I wasn't satisfied with my "procedure" the first time I checked these clearances. While cleaning the block for the last time I took some grey ultra fine scotch brite and buffed the main bearing bores to smooth out the high spots. I also buffed the back sides of the bearings with some 400 grit wet/dry for the same reason. After doing this I installed the crank and bearings to check the clearances a second time. This time I used moly thread lube when torquing the main cap bolts, both on the thread and the bottom side of the bolt head. This yielded a reading of .002 across the board with minor variances.

GreenPhoenix

Filing piston rings, my favorite thing to do. I set my top ring end gaps tonight toward the upper end of the chart that came with the pistons (0.028). I checked the second rings and found them to be 0.030 right out of the box. The minimum recommendation on the sheet that came with the pistons is 0.004/inch of bore (about 0.015). They are WAY too wide. I called the Keith Black tech line and they told me they were WAY too wide, and that I should get in contact with Hastings, the manufacturer. I called Hastings, they told me they were WAY too wide, and offered to send me four replacement rings no charge. The lady in customer service said I should have them withen the week. I'm starting to wonder if the second rings are specced incorrectly and are the cause of the oil consumption issues so many people have with this piston/ring package. Without a doubt I'll be checking the new rings.

GreenPhoenix

As it turned out the rings that came with the KB pistons were not Hastings but a Japanese brand called NPR. I believe they are an OE manyfacturer. Never the less I was still sent new second rings from Hastings and the guy I talked to at KB had Hastings send me an entire new set of Hastings rings! It looks like the NPR top rings are chrome faced while the Hastings top rings are a moly inlay. The oil rings are nearly identical. Both seem to be quality rings so I decided just to use the NPR top rings and oil rings (since I had the top ones gapped already). The Hastings second rings are a napier design where as the NPR second rings were a taper or square face, its kinda hard to tell by eyeballing them. Anyway, rings are gapped and ready to be installed. Tonight I finished putting back together my rocker arm assembly. I took it completely apart, scrubbed everything with brushes inside and out and polished the shafts. The shafts had just a little bit of a wear pattern that I took out with some 1200 grit wet/dry while spinning them in a lathe. The shafts had lots of gunk inside them and there were CHUNKS of stuff sitting in the end "Struts" (???) that hold the shafts. I would have started installing pistons tonight but I forgot to pick up a bottle of Lucas for lube. The crank scraper I got from LC requires a close fit to the crank to do its job. If I were to use only the oil pan bolts to align it in the block I would end up with a different alignment everytime I took the bolts out on top of the slop from the holes in the scraper. As a solution I decided to install dowel pins in the block that sit even with the surface of the scraper with the scraper installed. This will allow me to properly align it with the block and be able to have a reliable and close fit to the crank every time I take it apart. Thats about as far as I've gotten, it takes lots of time to clean and debur all the parts to my satisfaction. I might be going a little overboard but my time is cheap and if I can take another 10 minutes now and not have to tear it down later because something went wrong, I'll take the extra 10 minutes. I've got so much time into this thing anyway what's another 10 minutes. Its really not even funny.

GreenPhoenix

Tried putting some pictures up tonight but couldnt get them onto this thread, just got them into an album. Uploading pics from a tablet is a b10tch. Check them out in my album if you want.

Currently waiting on a MLS head gasket from Cometic which no one had in stock and everyone I talked to/emailed said they were special order. I hope to see it this week sometime. The pistons sit above the block .020 so I went with a .051 gasket to give me right about .030 quench. I don't feel comfortable going any closer, .030 is pretty close but any compression I can gain will amount to more (free) power. Hyper pistons + steel rods + tight bearing clearances + not super high rpm. I've built motors .030-.028 before (with looser piston-wall clearance) and have had no problems. With stock fuel injection this thing wont see the top side of 6500 anyway, and i'll probably keep it under 7k if I go to a carb later. Seriously thinking about going to a carb. The only drawback I can see is tuneability, I havent found any jets for the Aisin carbs. If anyone has any sugguestions on the subject I'd like to hear anything to motivate me to go to a carb. Bear in mind that it will have to be a 22r Aisin if I do convert. I will be running it FI for a while (on e85) so I'll keep everyone posted on that.

Tablets suck.

Dirt Driver

I don't know what the Aisin jets look like, but I made a handful of my own ½-size Keihin main jets for a PD bike carb. It took a lathe and a bunch of little reamers. Pilot jets would have been a PITA because they also served as an emulsion tube.

Another option is to get stock jets and modify them. Just be sure to mark them somehow. I engraved mine under a microscope.

By the same token, you would need injectors that flow approximately 50% more volume in order to compensate for E85.