Kiely

Not trying to worry you, just saying it is normal as an engine wears for oil pressure to drop slightly as bearings wear normally. My truck has 220Km on it and at idle when the oil is warmed up the gauge sits just below the first mark on the oil gauge, but runs right in the middle of the gauge when cruising... no worries.

FredTJ

Answer a few questions and then defend your position.

- How is the thickness of oil measured ? I don't mean what "device" but in what unit(s).
- What thickness are virtually all gas engines that one is likely to own and drive designed for ?
- What is the measured thickness (in measured units) of 10W-30 (or 10W-50 or 10W-50, etc) at 75*F ?
- Do you think that a 0W-30 (or 0W-40, whatever) is too thin compared to a 10W-30 (or 40, etc) and why ?




Fred

tailhole

change oil filters. I've seen 15 pounds between fram and wix. have had lots of problems with fram. I use only wix on all my motors. and tell my customers that i will not warranty any engine with a STP,group7or douch. and about to put fram on the list. most autoparts stores carry wix under there name(napa gold)

TrevanO

Mine sits on the first mark cruising and when warm at idle it will drop down to half way on the first mark, thanks for the oil info i learned something new today

Kiely

As promised…

I don’t mean to hijack your thread here TrevanO but I think addressing some of the misinformation put forth here is important.

First to address the “flow” issue.

Oil flow isn’t even specified by SAE viscosity ratings (i.e., 10W-30, 10W-40, etc…). The point at which oil loses fluidity or stops flowing is called the pour point.

Pour point – The lowest temperature at which an oil or distillate fuel is observed to flow, when cooled under conditions prescribed by test method ASTM D 97. The pour point is 3°C (5°F) above the temperature at which the oil in a test vessel shows no movement when the container is held horizontally for five seconds.

A 10W-30 oil’s pour point will generally be in the -30°C range.

Which brings us to the “10W-40 is too thick” statement.

Below is an excerpt from “The Practical Handbook of Machinery Lubrication – Third Edition” by L. Leugner CLS. It’s a very informative book. I highly recommend you read it fred, despite your belittling bluster you seem to be confused about some fairly fundamental aspects of lubricants.

“The Society of Automotive Engineer’s current viscosity classifications are listed on the charts below with corresponding general temperature range guides in which these oils can be used…

*Summer Grades Temperature Range
SAE Viscosity Minimum Maximum
20 -7°C 27°C
30 0°C 38°C
40 5°C 50°C
50 Not normally used in engines

*the time required to pressure lubricate an engine’s components at -25°C is approximately 3.15 (three minutes, fifteen seconds) when using an SAE 30 oil. Therefore, single summer grades should only be considered for summer use only, unless block heaters and/or engine oil pan heaters are used whenever the engine is not operating.

**Winter Grades Temperature Range
SAE Viscosity Minimum Maximum
20W -10°C 16°C
15W -18°C 16°C
10W -29°C 5°C
5W -40°C 0°C

** Single winter grades should only be considered when the equipment is to be operated in the winter months. The use of an SAE 5W or 10W oil in then higher heat of summer, may cause the oil’s viscosity to decrease (thin out) too much and boundary lubrication may result, particularly under high speed and/or heavy load conditions.

**Multi-Grades Temperature Range
SAE Viscosity Minimum Maximum
0W-30 -40°C 21°C
5W-20 -35°C 16°C
5W-30 -35°C 27°C
10W-30 -29°C 32°C
10W-40 -24°C 38°C
15W-40 -15°C 43°C
15W-50 -10°C 49°C
20W-50 0°C 55°C

*** Multi-grade oils are made by blending a low viscosity oil with special additives called Viscosity Index Improvers. For example, when these polymer additives are blended in the correct proportion with an SAE 15W oil, the oil flows like an SAE 15W at low temperature and like an SAE 40 oil at bigh temperatures. The result is an SAE 15W-40 oil that will provide wide protection over an extended temperature range.”

Sorry if I didn’t prove to you all that you requested, I felt the priority was to correct the misinformation you put forth in this post. I could go on proving to you what I know about oil, flow, pressure, etc, etc… but frankly I don’t have the time. I know what I know, I don’t need to prove it to every person who tries to call me out on a MB.

Christopher Kiely
Manager, Service Support
Hitachi Construction Machinery
Dump Truck Support Group

Kiely

See answers above.

twitchrunner

thats what im talkin about.

Kiely

Hmm??? That does seem a little low. I'd confirm the proper operation of the dash gauge.

conrad

As mentioned, the dash oil gauge is really inaccurate. Mine registers at the 1st mark at warm 3k and sometimes drops all the way to the far left at warm idle.

I put a pressure gauge on it and was getting about 10psi at idle and 65psi at 3k. The gauge has never read correctly, and it was cheaper to buy the pressure tester than the sending unit.

FredTJ

Ok, for ease I am going to number my questions (above, see the quoted section).

1 - You got it correct, however there are more than just cSt and sus units. There are 4 or 5, but that's ok.

You mentioned in your post previous to this one:
Kinda true and not true. viscosity is directly related to flow (as HP is directly rated to torque, a different subject ).
A higher viscosity oil has a lower "flow" or "flow rate" than a lower viscosity oil.


2 - Basically wrong answer. All automotive engines that one is likely to drive on road and off road are engineered for an oil with a viscosity ("flow") of 10 cSt, no matter what the temperature is. The engine can't magically make a 100 cSt oil flow enough for it just because it's "cold" just as it can't operate correctly with an oil that has a viscosity of 1cSt just because it's hot. The vast majority of automotive engines are designed for an oil with a viscosity of 10 cSt. For those interested, search around some and you'll fine the information.

3 - I didn't ask if:
, I asked:
, to which a perfectly acceptable answer would have been "I don't know because......". However you can calculate the thickness (viscosity) of an oil at that temperature given the viscosity at two other temperatures, which you can get from any lubricant spec sheet, for instance:

http://www.widman.biz/Seleccion/Visc...erational.html

4 - Wrong answer again. Let's see why
- Since most automotive engines are designed (engineered) to use an oil with a viscosity of 10 cSt (regardless of oil temperature. Think about it for an instant. An engine has the same lubrication requirements at -40C as it does at 150C. It's lubrication requirements {flow} does not change) we can look at some specifications.

Mobile 1 website for reference:

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English...s/Mobil_1.aspx


Pick an oil, any oil, viscosity. I just popped up the Mobil 1 website, clicked on their 10W-30, then clicked on the "Product data sheet" link. Let's see what we find.
Mmmmmm, at 40C (which BTW for any others following this and may be a little C to F conversion challenged is 104*F) the viscosity is (ouch) 62 cSt.
At 100C (again the conversion for those having trouble with the 'old C to F thingy is 212*F) is 10 cSt. Perfect.
This means that at a "cold" temperature their 10W-30 is too thick. Mmmmmm.

Let's look at their 5W-30 (use the same procedure to get their for those still following). Mmmmmm, we get 64.8 cSt @ 40C and 11.3 cSt @ 100C.
Mmmmm, well I'll be taken out behind the shed and horse whipped. Their 5W-30 is too thick at a "cold" temperature of 104*F.

If y'all look at this, look at any oil which you want and look at the data specs for it and you'll find that really any commonly available oil, multi grade or now, is too thick at cold temperature, and that's measured as 104*F.
Lets look at a "real" cold temperature of say freezing (32F). Let's look at the Mobil 10W-30, for instance. The viscosity of that oil at 32*F is: Mmmm, that falls off the scale and doesn't make sense. What it means that the normal method(s) of viscosity measurement isn't possible. Ever wonder why we use block heaters in cold climates
Let's try something a little warmer. Lets see what the viscosity of the same oil is at 75*F. It is: Wow, it's 131 cSt ~ 132 cSt. Pretty scary isn't it. How many of y'all know someone who starts up their vehicle in the morning and it's around 75*F temperature and they let it idle up for a minute or less and then, zooooom, zoooom, rev it some and take off. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm..

Now, back to my statement. You have to take any statements from me at exactly face value, nothing more or less. Let's see, I said 10W-40 is too thick and I stand by that statement. I did not say it's too thick at operating temperature, I simply said it's too thick and it is. It's not necessarily too thick at temperature (the 40 "weight" part) but it certainly is when it's cold.
It may be too thick at temperature. The only way to know for a particular engine is to get an oil pressure gauge and and oil temperature gauge and run the engine up to temperature 100C (212F) and start checking pressure. As already mentioned, the "golden rule" is 10psi/1000 rpm. Use the oil with the viscosity that produces that for your engine and you'll be hard pressed to go wrong.
Right from Amsoil's website (note that I am not recommending Amsoil, just quoting):
As a total aside, anyone want to guess what the 'W' stands for in say 10W-30 ? Note, it's not "weight" and it's not "winter"



Lastly, since you like to spell out your credentials:
Humbly, I am:

Fred M Wilson
Senior Engineer V
Pacific Scientific
STI Division.


Fred

Note: I've probably made some typo's here, so feel free to correct 'em

TrevanO

yea it worries me, going up around 2,00rpm it has a fast knock but then goes away only does it for a second and goes away, pretty sure its the valves. as for as the oil goes i took the oil cap off and im getting oil up top. i'm knew to 22re's i had a 350 in my last toyota

Kiely

Oh, whatever Fred.

You come on here and tell someone with low oil pressure running a 10W-30 he’s using too thick an oil, without knowing where he even lives. The guy could be living in the middle of Death Valley and based on your recommendations he’s now thinking he has to go to a thinner oil. That could be catastrophic to his engine.

Yes all oil is a compromise, oil maybe “too thick” at startup and as the saying goes, the perfect oil is an oil that is the perfect viscosity for the equipment at all temperatures. Unfortunately that doesn’t exist so we have multigrades, etc… and the lubricant becomes a compromise. But you’re not revealing some great pearl of wisdom here Fred, you’re basically saying “the sky is blue”.

All your long winded ranting trying to call me out and meaningless questions designed to reveal your “superior intellect” (or level of trivial information) doesn’t change the fact that your comments in this thread are irresponsible, misleading and frankly somewhat juvenile.

I am trying to keep things simple for the OP and others who are posting questions so they can understand things that maybe they are having a hard time understanding or have simply never been told before.

You are simply complicating things and asking basically irrelevant questions in an attempt to show how smart you think you are and boost your ego… sort of sad really. I now realize your original “too thick” comment was merely bait to lure someone into this pointless debate with you and silly me I fell for it… it won’t happen again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

I apologize to TrevanO for hijacking his thread for this nonsense.

Kiely

Hmmm? Can you always get that knock to occur by just quickly pressing the throttle to bring the engine up to 2000 RPM and then letting off the throttle???

If it seems to be getting worse - audible in a wider range of rpm's, louder, etc... I'd get the engine's bottom end checked ASAP.

TrevanO

it hasnt gotten worse, i checked the rod bearings a week ago they looked almost new

clk_cpa

so bottom line, what kind of oil should i use on a 220k mile engine in Los Angeles?

Marc

10W40 should work well for LA.

FredTJ

If you want to run a 40 weight a 0W-40 or 5w-40 is better, if you can find
it.




Fred

stumpjumper

3vze engines only have 3 to 5 p.s.i of oil pressure when warm and at idle .

poweredmotives

Kiely,

Nice pic. EH 4500 is it?

Ram1

Going to disconnect the battery and bet dimes to dollars that it starts just fine in the morning. It always has.
If not then I will be buying a new battery tomorrow. I want to change the air filter system so I can add a second battery for other uses pertaining to the truck and trailer I use.