5w30 to light?
Apr 5, 2007 | 07:47 AM
#21
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,481
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From: Northern IL
That first link you posted is good. That guy seems to know his stuff, and even drives a Ferrari!
"It is time to dispel the notion that 0W-30 oil is too thin when our manual calls for 10W-30. A 0W-30 is always the better choice, always. The 0W-30 is not thinner. It is the same thickness as the 10W-30 at operating temperatures. The difference is when you turn your engine off for the night. Both oils thicken over the evening and night. They both had a thickness, a viscosity of 10 when you got home and turned your engine off. That was the perfect thickness for engine operation.
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey - like oil with a viscosity of 90."
Rob
"It is time to dispel the notion that 0W-30 oil is too thin when our manual calls for 10W-30. A 0W-30 is always the better choice, always. The 0W-30 is not thinner. It is the same thickness as the 10W-30 at operating temperatures. The difference is when you turn your engine off for the night. Both oils thicken over the evening and night. They both had a thickness, a viscosity of 10 when you got home and turned your engine off. That was the perfect thickness for engine operation.
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey - like oil with a viscosity of 90."
Rob
Apr 5, 2007 | 08:58 AM
#22
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Joined: Sep 2005
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From: NW Ark on wooded ten acres...Ozarks at large!
Thanks Pruney! BUt, mine is the 22RE. Make a difference?
If that's the case, then I will have to decide what to do. I'm using the extended life synthentic M1....good for a full year, and pricey. Hmm..
If that's the case, then I will have to decide what to do. I'm using the extended life synthentic M1....good for a full year, and pricey. Hmm..
Apr 5, 2007 | 09:10 AM
#23
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 313
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From: Not Denver
Interesting thread. I tend to take things much too seriously and crack the books from school (I'm an EE). So I did that, grabbing some the undergrad texts and reading them a little last night. This is long, so read it all (particularly the last 2 paragraphs) before replying.
It seems there is a lot at work here. First is the idea of pressure and flow. You want high primarily flow and low pressure, but you need pressure to have flow. No pressure means there is nothing to push the oil, so there must be pressure at one end to get the oil moving and this is particularly true when you are talking about an engine because you need pressure at the bottom end to get the oil to the top end. You want enough pressure that the valve train gets oil, for example. Too low pressure and you starve something (like a cam or crank journal), too high pressure and your flow is reduced too much.
Viscosity is the measure of drag of oil from low to the high-pressure under the load. It's basically the internal friction of the oil. If one solid surface passed over another in a bath of oil, the lubricating fluid must allow the surfaces to slide past each other without letting them touch. The resistance to this sliding in the presence of fluid is called viscosity. But the oil must completely touch both surfaces.
How does oil remain between the sliding surfaces? You'd think it would be squished out by the loaded surfaces. It remains there because there is an oil wedge, which is a product of the oil's viscosity. The oil film between them takes a wedge shape that's thicker at the leading edge and thinner at the trailing edge. As the surface slides across, the oil does not leave right away because the lube's viscosity keeps it there. Our sliding surface might be a piston skirt, the lobe of a cam or rod rotating on the crank. Anyway, the load is carried by the formed oil wedge. Oil enters the wedge at zero pressure and viscosity keeps it there to carry the load than for it to be squeezed out. The viscosity, along with the angular speed of the two surfaces and the clearance between them determines how the film of lube forms.
The space between the surfaces must be filled enough to keep the clearance filled without being too thick or too thin. If the viscosity is too high, the internal friction is too great and the wedge pushes too much oil and the film is not correct. Too low of a viscosity and the wedge is too shallow and too much oil is left behind and so your flow needs to be higher to keep enough new oil coming into the wedge to keep from running out of oil.
I am hip to the idea that lowering the oil's viscosity at room temperature is a very good idea. But my agrument is only taking the stance that Toyota knew the characteristics of the oil they had at the time. They sized things to work with the weights of oils they had. So the way the oil pump works, the tensioner, the location and size of oil journals and passages, etc. are all designed to work with the recommended viscosity in the book. Since their engines go a couple of hundred thousand miles, they do sometimes get it right. Now they also have sludging problems in some engines, so I'm also not going to sit here and say they are perfect. But in the case of the R motors, they aren't known to have chronic oiling issues and so by deviating from their guidelines, what other things are now being changed? I guess I'll take a wait and see attitude only because I've been burned lately by not sticking to the book. I'm rebuilding my engine prematurely because of something that didn't work right. I had metal backed guide in my engine, the driver's side broke, taking out my chain, cover, making a huge mess. This was at only 50K miles on the timing stuff. It seems the tensioner was not working properly, probably ever. I ran 0W40 for about 6 months to a year, about 25% of the life of the timing components. There's probably no correlation, but I can't say there wasn't a cause and effect.
Shrug. Like I say, I'm just a hack at this, I read the stuff you guys are linking to and am thinking about it. I'm seriously considering 5W30 in the new engine because of some of the stuff you guys are saying. One thing I did not know was that we are all correct in a way. Traditional multiweight dino oil is the thinner of the two numbers with viscosity modifiers to make it thicken, while synthetic multiweight is the thicker and doesn't need modifiers to make it flow well at lower temps. That's something I learned today.
It seems there is a lot at work here. First is the idea of pressure and flow. You want high primarily flow and low pressure, but you need pressure to have flow. No pressure means there is nothing to push the oil, so there must be pressure at one end to get the oil moving and this is particularly true when you are talking about an engine because you need pressure at the bottom end to get the oil to the top end. You want enough pressure that the valve train gets oil, for example. Too low pressure and you starve something (like a cam or crank journal), too high pressure and your flow is reduced too much.
Viscosity is the measure of drag of oil from low to the high-pressure under the load. It's basically the internal friction of the oil. If one solid surface passed over another in a bath of oil, the lubricating fluid must allow the surfaces to slide past each other without letting them touch. The resistance to this sliding in the presence of fluid is called viscosity. But the oil must completely touch both surfaces.
How does oil remain between the sliding surfaces? You'd think it would be squished out by the loaded surfaces. It remains there because there is an oil wedge, which is a product of the oil's viscosity. The oil film between them takes a wedge shape that's thicker at the leading edge and thinner at the trailing edge. As the surface slides across, the oil does not leave right away because the lube's viscosity keeps it there. Our sliding surface might be a piston skirt, the lobe of a cam or rod rotating on the crank. Anyway, the load is carried by the formed oil wedge. Oil enters the wedge at zero pressure and viscosity keeps it there to carry the load than for it to be squeezed out. The viscosity, along with the angular speed of the two surfaces and the clearance between them determines how the film of lube forms.
The space between the surfaces must be filled enough to keep the clearance filled without being too thick or too thin. If the viscosity is too high, the internal friction is too great and the wedge pushes too much oil and the film is not correct. Too low of a viscosity and the wedge is too shallow and too much oil is left behind and so your flow needs to be higher to keep enough new oil coming into the wedge to keep from running out of oil.
I am hip to the idea that lowering the oil's viscosity at room temperature is a very good idea. But my agrument is only taking the stance that Toyota knew the characteristics of the oil they had at the time. They sized things to work with the weights of oils they had. So the way the oil pump works, the tensioner, the location and size of oil journals and passages, etc. are all designed to work with the recommended viscosity in the book. Since their engines go a couple of hundred thousand miles, they do sometimes get it right. Now they also have sludging problems in some engines, so I'm also not going to sit here and say they are perfect. But in the case of the R motors, they aren't known to have chronic oiling issues and so by deviating from their guidelines, what other things are now being changed? I guess I'll take a wait and see attitude only because I've been burned lately by not sticking to the book. I'm rebuilding my engine prematurely because of something that didn't work right. I had metal backed guide in my engine, the driver's side broke, taking out my chain, cover, making a huge mess. This was at only 50K miles on the timing stuff. It seems the tensioner was not working properly, probably ever. I ran 0W40 for about 6 months to a year, about 25% of the life of the timing components. There's probably no correlation, but I can't say there wasn't a cause and effect.
Shrug. Like I say, I'm just a hack at this, I read the stuff you guys are linking to and am thinking about it. I'm seriously considering 5W30 in the new engine because of some of the stuff you guys are saying. One thing I did not know was that we are all correct in a way. Traditional multiweight dino oil is the thinner of the two numbers with viscosity modifiers to make it thicken, while synthetic multiweight is the thicker and doesn't need modifiers to make it flow well at lower temps. That's something I learned today.
Last edited by DaveInDenver; Apr 5, 2007 at 09:12 AM.
Apr 5, 2007 | 09:19 AM
#24
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From: Sacramento, CA.
Oil is always such a debate. I run 10W-30 in my 22RE with 280K with absolutely no problems. Like everyone always says, most of the engine wear happens upon start up. It all comes down to pumpability. Thinner oil is more pumpable and gets in the nooks and crannies better than a thicker oil. If you really need to run 20-50 to fill in the gaps, you should probably concider buying a new engine. 5-30, 10-30, 10-40 are all fine. I had a buddy who run 20-50 in his engine from day one and he was always wondering why he could only get 50K on a brand new engine. 10-30 all year for me cold or hot weather. Friction will happen regardless but molasses will not go where water will when it is the most crucial (cold start).
Apr 5, 2007 | 05:53 PM
#28
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 413
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From: Mississippi
I run 20 w 50 in everything all year round. Which it don't get super cold here either.. I can see the diffrence in oil pressure. I always see better pressure on the 20 w 50 and i stick with it..really as long as you don't put Quaker State in it , should be fine
Apr 5, 2007 | 06:35 PM
#29
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Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Leadville Colorado
Well, CO4RNR, There are quite a few arguments no matter which way you choose to go with it but, with 180k miles 5W30 should be okay. But I think your engine would like it much better with something a little thicker. I'd try at least some 10W40. I know all my 22re's liked thicker oil. I'm running 10w30 in my 3.0 right now with 160k miles and as soon as it warms up in Mass I'm going to put 10w40 in. 5W30 in a 22RE WITH 180k miles is too thin for my liking, especially in the summer. Like I said before in the late 70's and early 80's 20W50 was recommended for the 20R and the 22R
Apr 5, 2007 | 07:05 PM
#31
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From: Montgomery County, Maryland
A multi weight oil is whatever the lower number is and has additives that make it thicker when hot. So a 5W30 is basically a 5W oil that achieves the viscosity that a 30W would when hot. It's still fundamentally a thinner oil and it's just my opinion that a 5W base is too thin for older engines. The cold start is why I want a 10W-whatever. Even when new, the clearances on old engines weren't as tight as more modern engines and having a thicker film to fill the clearance seems like it would be a good thing on start-up. This is even more true as an engine gets hours, the bearing clearances get even looser, so running a 0W or 5W at cold start means there's a relatively thinner coating of oil between the two wearing surfaces. Once an engine is warmed and running, most any oil will work. The majority of your engine wear comes in the first minute or two. I still think that going with what the manufacturer says the engine is designed to work with is the best thing. I could be wrong, but there is more to start-up than /just/ the oil flowing, it must also be able to fill the void between surfaces and act like a cushion. That is less about the oil pumping, but the viscosity of the pool of oil that the crank is sitting in. I do agree that 0W and 5W oils flow better, but do they protect well enough at start? I simply don't know and so I just go with the owner's manual. Then there's the fact that the R motors use a chain tensioner that is based on oil pressure and that was designed to operate with a certain weight oil. At start-up do the thinner oils let the tensioner work correctly? Just wondering and, again, since I don't know for a fact that it works right with 0W and 5W, I'll trust the book. I'm presenting my reasoning, I might be completely off base. I know that 5W30 and 10W30 have the same approximate hot viscosity, but they are different at cold.
"It is time to dispel the notion that 0W-30 oil is too thin when our manual calls for 10W-30. A 0W-30 is always the better choice, always. The 0W-30 is not thinner. It is the same thickness as the 10W-30 at operating temperatures. The difference is when you turn your engine off for the night. Both oils thicken over the evening and night. They both had a thickness, a viscosity of 10 when you got home and turned your engine off. That was the perfect thickness for engine operation.
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey - like oil with a viscosity of 90."
Rob
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey - like oil with a viscosity of 90."
Rob
Interesting thread. I tend to take things much too seriously and crack the books from school (I'm an EE). So I did that, grabbing some the undergrad texts and reading them a little last night. This is long, so read it all (particularly the last 2 paragraphs) before replying.
It seems there is a lot at work here. First is the idea of pressure and flow. You want high primarily flow and low pressure, but you need pressure to have flow. No pressure means there is nothing to push the oil, so there must be pressure at one end to get the oil moving and this is particularly true when you are talking about an engine because you need pressure at the bottom end to get the oil to the top end. You want enough pressure that the valve train gets oil, for example. Too low pressure and you starve something (like a cam or crank journal), too high pressure and your flow is reduced too much.
Viscosity is the measure of drag of oil from low to the high-pressure under the load. It's basically the internal friction of the oil. If one solid surface passed over another in a bath of oil, the lubricating fluid must allow the surfaces to slide past each other without letting them touch. The resistance to this sliding in the presence of fluid is called viscosity. But the oil must completely touch both surfaces.
How does oil remain between the sliding surfaces? You'd think it would be squished out by the loaded surfaces. It remains there because there is an oil wedge, which is a product of the oil's viscosity. The oil film between them takes a wedge shape that's thicker at the leading edge and thinner at the trailing edge. As the surface slides across, the oil does not leave right away because the lube's viscosity keeps it there. Our sliding surface might be a piston skirt, the lobe of a cam or rod rotating on the crank. Anyway, the load is carried by the formed oil wedge. Oil enters the wedge at zero pressure and viscosity keeps it there to carry the load than for it to be squeezed out. The viscosity, along with the angular speed of the two surfaces and the clearance between them determines how the film of lube forms.
The space between the surfaces must be filled enough to keep the clearance filled without being too thick or too thin. If the viscosity is too high, the internal friction is too great and the wedge pushes too much oil and the film is not correct. Too low of a viscosity and the wedge is too shallow and too much oil is left behind and so your flow needs to be higher to keep enough new oil coming into the wedge to keep from running out of oil.
I'm seriously considering 5W30 in the new engine because of some of the stuff you guys are saying. One thing I did not know was that we are all correct in a way. Traditional multiweight dino oil is the thinner of the two numbers with viscosity modifiers to make it thicken, while synthetic multiweight is the thicker and doesn't need modifiers to make it flow well at lower temps. That's something I learned today.
It seems there is a lot at work here. First is the idea of pressure and flow. You want high primarily flow and low pressure, but you need pressure to have flow. No pressure means there is nothing to push the oil, so there must be pressure at one end to get the oil moving and this is particularly true when you are talking about an engine because you need pressure at the bottom end to get the oil to the top end. You want enough pressure that the valve train gets oil, for example. Too low pressure and you starve something (like a cam or crank journal), too high pressure and your flow is reduced too much.
Viscosity is the measure of drag of oil from low to the high-pressure under the load. It's basically the internal friction of the oil. If one solid surface passed over another in a bath of oil, the lubricating fluid must allow the surfaces to slide past each other without letting them touch. The resistance to this sliding in the presence of fluid is called viscosity. But the oil must completely touch both surfaces.
How does oil remain between the sliding surfaces? You'd think it would be squished out by the loaded surfaces. It remains there because there is an oil wedge, which is a product of the oil's viscosity. The oil film between them takes a wedge shape that's thicker at the leading edge and thinner at the trailing edge. As the surface slides across, the oil does not leave right away because the lube's viscosity keeps it there. Our sliding surface might be a piston skirt, the lobe of a cam or rod rotating on the crank. Anyway, the load is carried by the formed oil wedge. Oil enters the wedge at zero pressure and viscosity keeps it there to carry the load than for it to be squeezed out. The viscosity, along with the angular speed of the two surfaces and the clearance between them determines how the film of lube forms.
The space between the surfaces must be filled enough to keep the clearance filled without being too thick or too thin. If the viscosity is too high, the internal friction is too great and the wedge pushes too much oil and the film is not correct. Too low of a viscosity and the wedge is too shallow and too much oil is left behind and so your flow needs to be higher to keep enough new oil coming into the wedge to keep from running out of oil.
I'm seriously considering 5W30 in the new engine because of some of the stuff you guys are saying. One thing I did not know was that we are all correct in a way. Traditional multiweight dino oil is the thinner of the two numbers with viscosity modifiers to make it thicken, while synthetic multiweight is the thicker and doesn't need modifiers to make it flow well at lower temps. That's something I learned today.
Oil is always such a debate. I run 10W-30 in my 22RE with 280K with absolutely no problems. Like everyone always says, most of the engine wear happens upon start up. It all comes down to pumpability. Thinner oil is more pumpable and gets in the nooks and crannies better than a thicker oil. If you really need to run 20-50 to fill in the gaps, you should probably concider buying a new engine. 5-30, 10-30, 10-40 are all fine. I had a buddy who run 20-50 in his engine from day one and he was always wondering why he could only get 50K on a brand new engine. 10-30 all year for me cold or hot weather. Friction will happen regardless but molasses will not go where water will when it is the most crucial (cold start).
Last edited by Mark in MD; Apr 5, 2007 at 07:10 PM.
Apr 5, 2007 | 08:47 PM
#33
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Wow, this is all great reading. I didn't realize that my little question would generate this much interest/ response. I have decided to keep with the 5w30 for now since that is what is in my engine right now. Thanks to all.
Apr 6, 2007 | 04:47 AM
#34
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From: Montgomery County, Maryland
Thanks all!
Apr 6, 2007 | 05:12 AM
#35
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From: Alexandria, VA
for those of you running 10w50 and such, are you racing or constantly revving up to redline for long durations? those conditions are what requires those heavier multiweight oils.
for example my friend runs 0w40 in his '95 euro m3 motor due to the variable valve timing unit needing it (the timing is retarded and advanced through oil pressure) and the fact that it sees the race tracks where his redline is 7800rpm and never drops to below 3k. my older m3 engine needs 15w50, 10w60 to prevent spun bearings running from 4k-8k rpms. if i could find a 0w50 i would run that, but i can't. those are all synthetics i am talking about
our 3vze's and 22re's don't have those requirements. i personally run dino 5w30 in my 119k mile 3vze and have great pressure (well as good as the stock gauge can tell me), no oil use, and it doesn't pour from all orifices.
for example my friend runs 0w40 in his '95 euro m3 motor due to the variable valve timing unit needing it (the timing is retarded and advanced through oil pressure) and the fact that it sees the race tracks where his redline is 7800rpm and never drops to below 3k. my older m3 engine needs 15w50, 10w60 to prevent spun bearings running from 4k-8k rpms. if i could find a 0w50 i would run that, but i can't. those are all synthetics i am talking about
our 3vze's and 22re's don't have those requirements. i personally run dino 5w30 in my 119k mile 3vze and have great pressure (well as good as the stock gauge can tell me), no oil use, and it doesn't pour from all orifices.
Apr 6, 2007 | 01:24 PM
#36
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Owners manual vs. other
I've noticed that the owner's manuals (produced for use in North America) list only 5w-30 thru 10w-40 for my vintage('91) 22RE, but the service manual and offshore service manuals list all the weights up to 20w-50. Since the thinner oil yields better mileage through reduced friction, especially when engine is cold, I think the N. American owner's manuals were "censored" to please the EPA/Mileage regulators at the time. Obviously, the newer engines require thinner oil.
Last edited by Keith B.; Apr 6, 2007 at 01:27 PM.
Apr 6, 2007 | 02:38 PM
#37
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From: NW Ark on wooded ten acres...Ozarks at large!
for those of you running 10w50 and such, are you racing or constantly revving up to redline for long durations? those conditions are what requires those heavier multiweight oils.
for example my friend runs 0w40 in his '95 euro m3 motor due to the variable valve timing unit needing it (the timing is retarded and advanced through oil pressure) and the fact that it sees the race tracks where his redline is 7800rpm and never drops to below 3k. my older m3 engine needs 15w50, 10w60 to prevent spun bearings running from 4k-8k rpms. if i could find a 0w50 i would run that, but i can't. those are all synthetics i am talking about
our 3vze's and 22re's don't have those requirements. i personally run dino 5w30 in my 119k mile 3vze and have great pressure (well as good as the stock gauge can tell me), no oil use, and it doesn't pour from all orifices.
for example my friend runs 0w40 in his '95 euro m3 motor due to the variable valve timing unit needing it (the timing is retarded and advanced through oil pressure) and the fact that it sees the race tracks where his redline is 7800rpm and never drops to below 3k. my older m3 engine needs 15w50, 10w60 to prevent spun bearings running from 4k-8k rpms. if i could find a 0w50 i would run that, but i can't. those are all synthetics i am talking about
our 3vze's and 22re's don't have those requirements. i personally run dino 5w30 in my 119k mile 3vze and have great pressure (well as good as the stock gauge can tell me), no oil use, and it doesn't pour from all orifices.
After all is said, I just notice that my motor seems fine w/15w-50 except in the colder months. I may wind up just running alternately with 10w-40. Besides....it's cheaper.
One thing I remember reading about synthetics is that it leaves a film on components that allow for greater protection on start-up. So, regardless of what oil one is using this would make a difference, as well.
Apr 6, 2007 | 02:44 PM
#39
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From: Idaho
what new oils? Synthitics?? We have been run synthitics in our rigs for 20+ years....
Apr 6, 2007 | 04:01 PM
#40
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From: Mississippi
Maybe so, but i never heard of it in Rural MS until a few years ago.. If you like it go for it... We have been running heavy equipement for 20 + years and never used a drop of it.. Our stuff run just like its suppose too.. I would rather count on what ive seen work than rather what i read.. Wouldn't you?
