"G"

How much $?

MortonPhotographic

Haha, too much. I have upwards of $5K into this damn thing. I guess that's why it's so frustrating, I can't turn my back on all the time and money I have spent, but I can't find the problem!

tacho75

i do have the same problem.
never got rid of the smoke.
just not paying attention anymore
but i noticed its not doing it anymore(if i drive it everyday)
when it sits over a week or two.
blows it for the first 5 min
and at the stop light. but after a day of use its gone!!!
i cant tell if is burning oil because i got a bad rear mainseal
and its leaking.so between the smoke and the leak i add 2 quarts between oil change.got 18.000 miles and a rebuild engine from adams machine shop in lancaster

spideynut

Just read your entire thread. I not sure if you ever got around to the leakdown? If that shows good you need to pull the head. It sucks but its a necessary evil to get your truck to proper running order. Once you've done those thing you can truck down you idle issue. Most likely it will be gone. Goodluck. Brad

"G"

Yeah do a leakdown test. I'm willing to bet it's a few of the oil rings. You should have no visible blow-by. Was the oil pump housing milled with the block?

MortonPhotographic

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the input--I couldn't do it without all of you!

No, I have not done the leakdown, I have to figure out how and get the equipment. I have not gotten a clear answer as to what a leak-down will tell me either.

One thing I don't want to do is rip it apart to look for a problem--I have bad luck with doing that. Instead I want to rule out everything else and then find a reason to pull the head. Not to say you guys are suggesting anything else. I just have a few things more I need to go through.

For example, just was told by member to check the 0-ring on the throttle adjustment screw--sure enough, it is old and dry--screw was even siliconed in at one time.

"G"

No problem, though that o-ring won't cause smoke and blow-by. Was the oil pump housing milled while attached to the block?

MortonPhotographic

I figure the O-ring is more about the idle issue and maybe a vaccum leak.

As for the front panel that holds the water pump and oil pump, I am not sure. I got it with the long-block, from the engine builder, but it was not installed--I had all the bolts because they hold on the AC bracket. Something tells me he did not. But then again, if he shaved the block, wouldn't he have to shave the housing?

MortonPhotographic

Well the O-ring worked wonders! Idle is nice and smooth and the truck runs great. Smoke is minimal too. I kinda think it is just running rich at this point. Basically I could only get it to smoke a little when I jumped on it off a standing start.

At this point I am wanting to put a cat in and hope that helps with the rich situation.

The idle screw issue lead me to clean the vacuum ports on the throttle body. Two of the three small vacuum lines at the top flow good, but the front one, in the middle, seems clogged. Can anyone tell me, should all these ports flow freely, or are some smaller than other for different levels of vacuum (if that is even possible).

I am pretty sure this center vacuum line goes back to the EGR diafram.

Bob_T

Putting in a new cat to help the rich situation is just a band aid. Plus, if it continues running rich it will eventually if not sooner, damage the new cat.

The rich issue, if you indeed have one, is somewhere in the EFI system and you should solve it there.

You mentioned earlier that when you remove the oil fill cap the engine smokes. It seems to me that when the cap is on, the crankcase vacuum compensates for and balances the cylinder vacuum on the intake stroke, so that minimal oil is pushed past the valve stem seals. When you removed the cap, the crankcase vacuum disappears and the vacuum in the cylinders on the intake stroke pulls too much oil past the valve stem seals.

Does that make sense? I think you can replace the valve stem seals with the head in place, just have to remove the cam. It will be a nuisance of a job but from here it sure seems the seals are the problem.

Bob

smogman

Do this but not in gear on the road!
2500 rpms for 3-5 min and then let it idle for 5 min. snap the throttle and if smoke comes out that is slightly blueish then your guides are passing oil.

White smoke is only water. blue is only oil and black is oil or fuel.

No cat will not cause anything to run differently. your o2 sensor is in front of it and has no bearing on the converter.

A non working cold start injector will not cause it to run rich. Only a leaky one will cause it to run rich. unbolt it but leave the fuel line hooked up and turn the key on. If it doesnt leak, thats not your problem. IT would have to be leaking bad for it to smoke anyways.

You answered your own question about the smoke. Your oil level is down and it has to be going somewhere.

#4 plug could be clean if there is water getting in there. watch your water level too. you might have 2 problems.

MortonPhotographic

@Bob T, Without being 100% sure of the technical reason, that is the logic I am using on the truck. I have been able to greatly affect the amount of smoke the truck puts out by A) sealing the dip stick tube [way less smoke] and B) opening the same passage up with the filler cap [much more smoke]. I figured it had to be oil getting by the rings or valve guides due to this pressure or lack of pressure--so thanks for possibly confirming and narrowing it down!

@ Smogman, thanks for the tip, this will further help me narrow it to valve guides. Even though I have not done exactly what you said, I have reved the engine, then let it idle, only to rev it again and have it billow smoke.

As for the cat, my engine builder told me I needed a cat (which I thought was odd because I know some people don't). On the other hand I was to understand that the 02 sensor can't get the correct temperature reading without a cat and therefore can make the truck run rich--that makes sense.

On that note, I have checked everything I am aware of on the EFI to find the rich condition (other than the cat). TPS, MAF, AAV, EGR, complete testing at the ECU as per the FSM... not sure whate else there is. Of course there always seems to be one more thing affecting each system--like that little O-ring. And I thought I had checked everything regarding idle before I was told about that Aquaprice.

I still don't have high idle at start up and then kick down, which I thought the AAV would fix. Granted, maybe the AAV still doesn't work right, even though it tested within spec (50 ohms, passages clear). Any chance what is causing this might be causing the rich condition, and any idea what that would be?

MortonPhotographic

Last night I had my friends at Fesler Built help me install a new cat--basically they did all the work. 8)

Today I have not seen it smoke, and I have been looking! So I went to the smog station and it passed with flying colors. I was pretty happy and kinda in shock. Still, I keep looking for smoke and don't see any.

Maybe the cat and back pressure had something to do with it. Maybe it puts out a small amount of smoke and the cat burns it up. I'm not sure, but the truck is running great.

I still think I might have a valve guide seal leak, or maybe even blow-by at the rings and am gonna keep playing with it. But at least I don't have to stress about my 30 day pass running out and I can drive it while I work out my issues!

I don't know that I have ever been so happy to pay for plates and tags!

smogman

I forgot to mention you should check your pcv system. pull you pcv valve out of the valve cover while its running and make sure it works. also check the other vent side and make sure its clear and not blocked. no pcv working will cause pressure in the crankcase and push oil into the combustion chamber. You should not be running 20-50 in a new motor. a wore out 22r sometimes warrents 20-50 but not a new motor.

Bob_T

I love it when my older vehicles pass smog, especially on the first try! My guess is that if there was anything even halfway seriously wrong with your motor it would not have passed smog, even with a new cat. Maybe you have it licked.

Bob

MortonPhotographic

@BobT, I am kinda hopeing that. My logic is that improper crank case pressure cause a good portion of my oil burning issue. Sealing up the leaks cleared up the majority of this issue. On the other side I think I didn't have enough backpressure with a header, no cat, and large pipe/muffler. Then I put in the cat that offers up some back pressure to further keep that oil in place. AAaaand, now I have the right temperature and air flow readings for the 02 sensor which might have helped out with the rich condition.

My engine builder, Phan, did say to put a cat in the truck. It seems to run great now, but I am going to keep a close eye on the oil levels as well as continuing to tinker with it--gotta figure out why I don't have a high idle...

@Smogman,
I will keep that in mind about the oil. Maybe I will swithc back to 10W40 and see what happens.

I do know the PCV works, and is not stuck. I pulled it with the engine running and the engine stopped. When I jiggle it, it makes noise and air flows one way just fine. I will double check the port in the upper intake manifold just to make sure it is not plugged.

smogman

I'm not sure why you believe removing a cat will make your your truck run rich but it will not. It will lower your emmissions out the tail pipe but will not alter your A/F ratio.

To much crankcase pressure can cause it to smoke but you made some refrences to vacuum leaks before. Vacuum leaks and crankcase leaks are different on a 4 stroke motor. On a 2 stroke they are one in the same. Vacuum leaks have nothing to do with crankcase pressure or oil consumption.

Adding back pressure does not "keep that oil in place" .

Just because your truck passed smog does not in any way mean there is not a problem. I'm not saying there is a problem but do not think a smog tell you the intefrity of your motor. I see cars with rod knocks pass all the time. Really the motor it self has little to do with passing smog. It's all the components around the motor that tell the motor how to burn. This is why a 500k mile motor can run as clean as a 100mile motor. The only important thing inside of a long block is tightly sealing valves for a smog check. You could take a rod bearing out off a motor and still pass smog. Before a recent smoking inspection for the smog test, I used to see chrysler 3.0l motor come in with bad valve seals all the time. They would smoke so bad you could not see anything and they would pass tailpipe. The reason is the burning oil does not contribute to the emmissions we test for. This is why they enacted a visual smoke test.

MortonPhotographic

@smogman,

I'm with you, I don't assume my problem has gone away. What I wrote above was all based on assumption because I don't exactly know how it all works--I have some idea, but do not know exactly and do not have years of experience with the 22RE. I am just going by what I do and how things change, or do not, based on that.

I had a ssumed I might have a vaccuum leak before and I did have a crank case venitlation issue--dipstick was way loose. I put a new one in and the smoke almost went away. A lot of people told me it was the rings, others said it was the VG seals. Several people I know were baffled when I told them about the dipstick--this is why I don't take any detail for granted.

My only logic with the cat and "holding the oil back" is that if a small leak around the dipstick can cause so much smoke, maybe proper back pressure can keep it from leaking past wherever it was getting into the cylinders--crazy, I know. But seemingly no more crazy than the dipstick causing my smoke problem. That is until after you (I) learn that 22REs are "particular" about crank case ventilation.

As for the cat... I have heard that the exhaust temperature as measured by the 02, down by the cat in the case of my truck, can affect how rich the truck runs. I have no way to know for sure, all I know is that I put in a cat and I can't see any smoke and I passed emissions.

Coming from California I am pretty sensative to smogging--they will fail you for anything! I was also told that even one drop of fuel or oil being burnt can be picked up by the sniffer and will cause you to fail--again, I have no way of knowing if this is true or not.

Bottom line, I still think I might have a leaky valve guide seal . And, I could be wrong.

smogman

I think your on track with the valve guide and or seal. the only reason I have to believe you may have other issues is because of the different conditions and different colors you were getting. If you have white then black it's 2 seperate problems and can not be related. Installing a cat will block a lot of smoke for now. That is why the engine builder wanted you to put one on. It is possible to check the play in your valve guides without pulling the head and you can replace the seals at the same time. But Im on the same page as you, I wouldn't do to much without having more data.

The dipstick leak your speak of is strange. a leaky dipstick will cause the idle to be spiratic or rough but there is now way for it to stop smoke from the tailpipe.

MortonPhotographic

Yup, thats' why I will be watching the oil level very closely. I was thinking the same thing... if I had a little black and or white smoke, the cat could burn it up. No smoke, no problem, right? WRONG! Gotta makes sure.

It was a young Matt at Right Toyota who told me about the crank case ventilation. When I told him my disptick was loose, he said I had to replace it. He was right. Further proof that crank cas ventilation will make it smoke is that when I pulled the oil cap my truck looks like a steam engine billowing white smoke out the tailpipe. Close it back up, and all is good.

Granted, maybe this only happens when there is a problem, like a leaky valve guide.

And I agree, builder could have said I needed cat to make my problem go away, at least until the warranty is up! And I could be wrong so I will need real proof before I condemn him.

I like the valve idea, and one of the first things I will do is change the valve guide seals with the head on if I have any kind of sign they need it.

I still want to do a leak down test and maybe another compression test now that it runs so good. I wonder if it is still putting out 200psi, or maybe it is closer to 170 like it should be?

Oh, and my speratic idle was fixed with an O-ring around the idle screw. So amazing how such a small thing could cause such a big problem. My distpick issue might have had something to do with it, but I didn't notice any change when I changed the dipsticks.