1986 4Runner 22RE rough idle, rich, no power
06-13-2010, 06:42 PM
#41
Registered User
Yeah, make that list, Alan. Ask Chef........backtracking'll drive ya nutz.
If you got the rotor to point at #1 with the cam and crank in postion, you're all good there. There's a notch on the dizzy to line up for when installing, but being on #1 is the main idea.
If you got the rotor to point at #1 with the cam and crank in postion, you're all good there. There's a notch on the dizzy to line up for when installing, but being on #1 is the main idea.
06-13-2010, 07:52 PM
#42
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I have tried to compile a list of things I have done and things others have suggested that I check. I might have missed something. LOL
Problem:
Low idle, Running rich, puffing black smoke/soot, has no power, cat glowing orange after I try to drive it, back fire thru intake.
PO changed the following:
Plugs, cap, rotor, fuel filter, cat (missing). The parts don’t seam to be the best of quality. Did have AC, but has been removed.
What I have done:
1. Sprayed brake cleaner around intake and injectors—No change
2. Checked timing with jumper wire T-E1 = 5* BTDC
3. TPS check bad, replaced and adjusted on the bench with ohm meter
4. Tested cold start injector. First I unplugged it while running=No change. Then pulled it out and energized it=sprays good. When deenergized it shut off with no seepage.
5. Replaced injectors
6. O2 code-Replaced with Bosch
7. Cut exhaust off before cat to check for blockage=no change
8. Swapped distributor with 89. 86 pickup coil resistance=179 ohms, 1989=145 ohms. Limit is 180 ohms per the 87 FSM
9. Swapped plug wires due too high resistance=no change
10. Advance the timing to 12*=runs a little better
11. Auxillary air valve line to throttle body clamped off=engine dies
12. Checked 4 engine grounds all are secure. Resistance from engine to negative battery post =.5 ohms
13. Compression 180, 170, 175, 180
14. Checked PCV=good
15. Checked the VTA circuit of new TPS= has steady climb until the last ½” of travel to WOT then it falls off. Idle=.7, ½” from full travel= 1.74, WOT=1.45 on a 20K ohm range
16. Checked all grounds at ECU to chassis ground=0.00
17. ECU resistance check= several out of spec. meter @2K
18. Unplugged new TPS while running=no change
19. Disconnect PCV or master cyl vac line makes it run better by leaning it out.
20. Checked EGR=checked good, but also swapped it out with the 89=no change.
21. Firing order correct
22. Unplugged throttle dampner hose from intake tube and taped the hole=no change
23. THW (engine coolant temp sensor voltage) is good
24. Checked resistance between new O2 and battery negative= .5 ohms
25. Replaced exhaust manifold gaskets and also 2 donut gaskets
26. VS voltage (air meter signal) a little high at idle
27. AFM flapper moves freely
28. Plugs are gapped right and are black, but not wet
Areas of concern:
1. Found single wire going no where 8 volts with key on.
2. 3 wires going to the igniter have been spliced=IGT circuit has high resistance
3. 1 Vac line kinked in rail along valve cover
4. Throttle dampner
5. Wiring harness
6. ECU
7. New Bosch O2 sensor……….is it good?
8. Vac hose from top of FPR goes straight to valve on intake
Things to check:
1. Check splices on igniter wires with meter
2. Valve adjustment
3. Recheck vac lines and routing
4. Voltage test TPS at ECU again
5.Block off EGR
6. Fuel pressure
7. Fuel return line for obstructions and location on FPR
8. Injector pulses
9. Check spark
10. Check intake tube for cracks
11. Press hard on brake pedal to check for drop in RPM
12. Check codes
13. Recheck ECU readings for TPS, AFM, O2
14. Check VSV,IACV
Things to repair:
1. Exhaust leak after O2
2. Ignition wire splices
3. New plugs
4. New plug wires
5. New cap, rotor
Problem:
Low idle, Running rich, puffing black smoke/soot, has no power, cat glowing orange after I try to drive it, back fire thru intake.
PO changed the following:
Plugs, cap, rotor, fuel filter, cat (missing). The parts don’t seam to be the best of quality. Did have AC, but has been removed.
What I have done:
1. Sprayed brake cleaner around intake and injectors—No change
2. Checked timing with jumper wire T-E1 = 5* BTDC
3. TPS check bad, replaced and adjusted on the bench with ohm meter
4. Tested cold start injector. First I unplugged it while running=No change. Then pulled it out and energized it=sprays good. When deenergized it shut off with no seepage.
5. Replaced injectors
6. O2 code-Replaced with Bosch
7. Cut exhaust off before cat to check for blockage=no change
8. Swapped distributor with 89. 86 pickup coil resistance=179 ohms, 1989=145 ohms. Limit is 180 ohms per the 87 FSM
9. Swapped plug wires due too high resistance=no change
10. Advance the timing to 12*=runs a little better
11. Auxillary air valve line to throttle body clamped off=engine dies
12. Checked 4 engine grounds all are secure. Resistance from engine to negative battery post =.5 ohms
13. Compression 180, 170, 175, 180
14. Checked PCV=good
15. Checked the VTA circuit of new TPS= has steady climb until the last ½” of travel to WOT then it falls off. Idle=.7, ½” from full travel= 1.74, WOT=1.45 on a 20K ohm range
16. Checked all grounds at ECU to chassis ground=0.00
17. ECU resistance check= several out of spec. meter @2K
18. Unplugged new TPS while running=no change
19. Disconnect PCV or master cyl vac line makes it run better by leaning it out.
20. Checked EGR=checked good, but also swapped it out with the 89=no change.
21. Firing order correct
22. Unplugged throttle dampner hose from intake tube and taped the hole=no change
23. THW (engine coolant temp sensor voltage) is good
24. Checked resistance between new O2 and battery negative= .5 ohms
25. Replaced exhaust manifold gaskets and also 2 donut gaskets
26. VS voltage (air meter signal) a little high at idle
27. AFM flapper moves freely
28. Plugs are gapped right and are black, but not wet
Areas of concern:
1. Found single wire going no where 8 volts with key on.
2. 3 wires going to the igniter have been spliced=IGT circuit has high resistance
3. 1 Vac line kinked in rail along valve cover
4. Throttle dampner
5. Wiring harness
6. ECU
7. New Bosch O2 sensor……….is it good?
8. Vac hose from top of FPR goes straight to valve on intake
Things to check:
1. Check splices on igniter wires with meter
2. Valve adjustment
3. Recheck vac lines and routing
4. Voltage test TPS at ECU again
5.Block off EGR
6. Fuel pressure
7. Fuel return line for obstructions and location on FPR
8. Injector pulses
9. Check spark
10. Check intake tube for cracks
11. Press hard on brake pedal to check for drop in RPM
12. Check codes
13. Recheck ECU readings for TPS, AFM, O2
14. Check VSV,IACV
Things to repair:
1. Exhaust leak after O2
2. Ignition wire splices
3. New plugs
4. New plug wires
5. New cap, rotor
06-13-2010, 08:08 PM
#43
Registered User
Originally Posted by Alan's Classic
I've read at different places that after market O2 sensors aren't a good option. Is that true? Should I go with an OE? I'm getting the same readings with the old O2 and the new Bosch. Either their both good (which I doubt), or they are both bad. I'm confident with the test on the O2 except for those last few steps.
Given the known problems with the Bosch sensors, and since the O2 sensor is the main feedback to the computer on mixture, I think it would be worth a try to swap in a Denso. Here's a promo code for 10% off on sparkplugs dot com that may work: "DEN1NOE" Or get the part number from there or densoproducts dot com and search for denso and the part # on Amazon.
Thanks guys again for your info and help.
I did this today. Pics will show what I found.
This is where the vac line from the top of the FPR ends up on the 86 (problem child).
This is the 89. It goes to this valve first then over to the thingy on the intake. I put the 89 pic in here for referrence.
Still have to do the fuel pressure.
I did this today. Pics will show what I found.
This is where the vac line from the top of the FPR ends up on the 86 (problem child).
This is the 89. It goes to this valve first then over to the thingy on the intake. I put the 89 pic in here for referrence.
Still have to do the fuel pressure.
The effect of vacuum on the regulator is to reduce fuel pressure by 6 - 7 pounds. On the vehicles with a vsv the ecu only applies vacuum at idle, and I think not all the time at idle, I think only when hot. I have no idea if your series of truck has the same set-up, but it appears that the vacuum will cause your fuel pressure (if return line not clogged & regulator good) to be in the range of 27-31 psi. That seems very low, especially for higher rpm. Strange; if true I would think it would cause a lean condition, but maybe the ecu is doing something freaky.
Hopefully someone will check & post.
And good idea to check spark, and to clean and solder those splices.
Hang in there, you'll get it.
06-13-2010, 08:29 PM
#44
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It's the Bosch sensors in particular that can cause trouble, at least on the later series of trucks with 4-wire sensors. See: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116.../#post51462256
Given the known problems with the Bosch sensors, and since the O2 sensor is the main feedback to the computer on mixture, I think it would be worth a try to swap in a Denso. Here's a promo code for 10% off on sparkplugs dot com that may work: "DEN1NOE" Or get the part number from there or densoproducts dot com and search for denso and the part # on Amazon.
I doubt that the pressure regulator is supposed to be connected directly to vacuum. I'll bet there is supposed to be a vsv in the loop - maybe the one that green-black wire used to connect to. Hopefully a couple of the guys with 85-88 22REs will be able to tell you if that's correct.
The effect of vacuum on the regulator is to reduce fuel pressure by 6 - 7 pounds. On the vehicles with a vsv the ecu only applies vacuum at idle, and I think not all the time at idle, I think only when hot. I have no idea if your series of truck has the same set-up, but it appears that the vacuum will cause your fuel pressure (if return line not clogged & regulator good) to be in the range of 27-31 psi. That seems very low, especially for higher rpm. Strange; if true I would think it would cause a lean condition, but maybe the ecu is doing something freaky.
Hopefully someone will check & post.
And good idea to check spark, and to clean and solder those splices.
Hang in there, you'll get it.
Given the known problems with the Bosch sensors, and since the O2 sensor is the main feedback to the computer on mixture, I think it would be worth a try to swap in a Denso. Here's a promo code for 10% off on sparkplugs dot com that may work: "DEN1NOE" Or get the part number from there or densoproducts dot com and search for denso and the part # on Amazon.
I doubt that the pressure regulator is supposed to be connected directly to vacuum. I'll bet there is supposed to be a vsv in the loop - maybe the one that green-black wire used to connect to. Hopefully a couple of the guys with 85-88 22REs will be able to tell you if that's correct.
The effect of vacuum on the regulator is to reduce fuel pressure by 6 - 7 pounds. On the vehicles with a vsv the ecu only applies vacuum at idle, and I think not all the time at idle, I think only when hot. I have no idea if your series of truck has the same set-up, but it appears that the vacuum will cause your fuel pressure (if return line not clogged & regulator good) to be in the range of 27-31 psi. That seems very low, especially for higher rpm. Strange; if true I would think it would cause a lean condition, but maybe the ecu is doing something freaky.
Hopefully someone will check & post.
And good idea to check spark, and to clean and solder those splices.
Hang in there, you'll get it.
I agree with you about a VSV in between the FPR and intake. I have to confirm that. I don't anybody around here that has on of these trucks. I will have to rely on the fantastic people here.
Last edited by Alan's Classic; 06-13-2010 at 08:34 PM.
06-13-2010, 08:43 PM
#45
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Thanks for the link to sparkplugs and the code as well. Here is a linky to what I found it's only $26.91 at denso and 22.39 at amazon. That's cheaper than i expected it to be.
I agree with you about a VSV in between the FPR and intake. I have to confirm that. I don't anybody around here that has on of these trucks. I will have to rely on the fantastic people here.
I agree with you about a VSV in between the FPR and intake. I have to confirm that. I don't anybody around here that has on of these trucks. I will have to rely on the fantastic people here.
I am not up for reading multiple pages... so if I am not making sense. sorry.
06-13-2010, 09:15 PM
#46
Registered User
On my '86, all the VSV's.....FPR and A/C......have two wires. A hot and ground. Later models than atleast '86 were equipped with also a VSV for the EGR. I can't comment on how many wires would go to it, but I bet it's a safe guess two considering how they work. Nevertheless, no concern for you since you wouldn't have an EGR VSV. But, you should have a vac line between the FPR and VSV for it. If you don't have a fuel pressure up switching valve for the '86, you should. I could swear I saw one in one of the first pics you supplied on the first page of your thread here????
Anyway, link.....
See pages 8,9, and 10.....
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h22.pdf
Now, what's the concern with the throttle dampener? As long as the end of that filter looking thing is open to the atmosphere, the tube is connected to the dashpot, and only a minute amount of air.......if you blow through it....is able to pass, it's fine. IOW, it's only function is to slow down the throttle plate closing by providing some air resistance. The only concern I'd have is if that hole in the intake was/is sealed really well.
I'll go out and look on my '86 as to how the FPR lines are routed. I don't recall offhand. My photographic memory has too many nudie pics downloaded.....hehe. Hoggin' up RAM, as it were......
<<<<<<KIDDING!!!>>>
Anyway, link.....
See pages 8,9, and 10.....
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h22.pdf
Now, what's the concern with the throttle dampener? As long as the end of that filter looking thing is open to the atmosphere, the tube is connected to the dashpot, and only a minute amount of air.......if you blow through it....is able to pass, it's fine. IOW, it's only function is to slow down the throttle plate closing by providing some air resistance. The only concern I'd have is if that hole in the intake was/is sealed really well.
I'll go out and look on my '86 as to how the FPR lines are routed. I don't recall offhand. My photographic memory has too many nudie pics downloaded.....hehe. Hoggin' up RAM, as it were......
<<<<<<KIDDING!!!>>>
06-13-2010, 09:24 PM
#47
Registered User
Oh, and the deal with the Bosch O2 sensors on the early 22re's with the sensor mounted on the manifold is that circular lip on the underside of the mating flange is too large for the port in the manifold. Atleast, that's what I found when I tried to install one of them on mine a while back. The flange bowed over and didn't give a good seal allowing atmospheric O2 into the exhaust. There is speculation, and probably some good evidence, that the Bosch sensor probe is too short to accurately sample the exhaust mix, but I have a friend who claims it shouldn't be an issue and that there is enough turbulance in the exhaust to reach the probe sufficiently. I'm leaning towards the idea that Bosch is just not good, but until I do some further expiramenting on my own vehicles and prove it to myself (even after testimony from the local dealer and head tech) I'm not 100% convinced. What can I say? I'm stubborn....lol!
06-13-2010, 09:33 PM
#48
Registered User
One more thing....
Do you have a vacuum tool? You know.....one of those little pumps that hook up to vac lines? Well, even if you don't, here's what I'd do with the EGR for now:
Either pump the EGR vac line until the valve closes or suck through it and clamp it off quickly and, then, see if the EGR bleeds off. This will tell you if the diaphragm leaks. If it doesn't, temporarily block the vac line with a BB so that it will remain shut. This will temporarily eliminate the EGR from your troubleshooting until you can work out all the other details. I think optimally you should have the EGR operational.....emissions testing aside, but it won't pose any problems while your getting other things working.
Do you have a vacuum tool? You know.....one of those little pumps that hook up to vac lines? Well, even if you don't, here's what I'd do with the EGR for now:
Either pump the EGR vac line until the valve closes or suck through it and clamp it off quickly and, then, see if the EGR bleeds off. This will tell you if the diaphragm leaks. If it doesn't, temporarily block the vac line with a BB so that it will remain shut. This will temporarily eliminate the EGR from your troubleshooting until you can work out all the other details. I think optimally you should have the EGR operational.....emissions testing aside, but it won't pose any problems while your getting other things working.
06-13-2010, 09:36 PM
#49
Registered User
Okay, last thing until I get the FPR info for you......
Did you check the PCV valve? And, you really oughtta check the valve adjustments and square them away. If the valves are too tight, it's just going to make it harder to know how much better the motor's running when you have other things working right. And, AND.....you probably need to get a new ECU soon.
Did you check the PCV valve? And, you really oughtta check the valve adjustments and square them away. If the valves are too tight, it's just going to make it harder to know how much better the motor's running when you have other things working right. And, AND.....you probably need to get a new ECU soon.
Last edited by thook; 06-13-2010 at 09:38 PM.
06-13-2010, 09:37 PM
#50
I have tried to compile a list of things I have done and things others have suggested that I check. I might have missed something. LOL
Problem:
Low idle, Running rich, puffing black smoke/soot, has no power, cat glowing orange after I try to drive it, back fire thru intake.(NOT GOOD, but neither is driving with NO backpressure at all....this is why 2" Pipe is recommended for stock exhaust, nothing larger than 2.25" for any build up, and with working CAT, Muffler and pipe to tail from muffler....I know, some people drive straight pipe, but I think those are/SHOULD BE for specific applications. Would imagine this could effect you getting 'TRUE' readings if you have no backpressure at all)
PO changed the following:
Plugs, cap, rotor, fuel filter(All should be OEM according to most of the respected guys I've met on here), cat (missing). The parts don’t seam to be the best of quality. Did have AC, but has been removed.
What I have done:
1. Sprayed brake cleaner around intake and injectors—No change
2. Checked timing with jumper wire T-E1 = 5* BTDC
3. TPS check bad, replaced and adjusted on the bench with ohm meter
4. Tested cold start injector. First I unplugged it while running=No change. Then pulled it out and energized it=sprays good. When deenergized it shut off with no seepage.
5. Replaced injectors
6. O2 code-Replaced with Bosch
7. Cut exhaust off before cat to check for blockage=no change
8. Swapped distributor with 89. 86 pickup coil resistance=179 ohms, 1989=145 ohms. Limit is 180 ohms per the 87 FSM
9. Swapped plug wires due too high resistance=no change
10. Advance the timing to 12*=runs a little better
11. Auxillary air valve line to throttle body clamped off=engine dies
12. Checked 4 engine grounds all are secure. Resistance from engine to negative battery post =.5 ohms
13. Compression 180, 170, 175, 180
14. Checked PCV=good
15. Checked the VTA circuit of new TPS= has steady climb until the last ½” of travel to WOT then it falls off. Idle=.7, ½” from full travel= 1.74, WOT=1.45 on a 20K ohm range
16. Checked all grounds at ECU to chassis ground=0.00
17. ECU resistance check= several out of spec. meter @2K
18. Unplugged new TPS while running=no change(THIS IS VERY telling, trust me....I've learned this over HOURS of trying to diagnose things. TPS removed should ALWAYS dump more fuel. It might not be noticeable because, well, YOU'RE ALREADY RICH beyond belief, maybe?)
19. Disconnect PCV or master cyl vac line makes it run better by leaning it out.(Another HUGE Sign that something SPECIFIC within "FUEL" is going wrong. In your ECU, you also have Drivers for each injector...I believe they all fire at once on the 22re, but I can't say for sure if those drivers could effect it in ^THIS^ way, as you're dealing with. Mine stalls within .5 seconds when you pull the Brake Booster....it's about the biggest vacuum leak you can create, ....seems VERY telling again of fuel just DUMPING.....Maybe your ECU is not relating to the TPS at all, or at least in the right way, causing this 'TPS disconnected' type condition all the time....but still, IT WOULD NOT be that rich, no way. I read below in someones post that 31max fuel pressure is low...sure, and yet, WHY WOULD IT BE SO RICH, if pressure is that low? Seems VERY odd....Could he have a crack in the rail,or more, causing it to pour past the injectors? Hmmm, doubt it)
20. Checked EGR=checked good, but also swapped it out with the 89=no change.(Block off EGR to be sure, if it's stuck shut then it would assimilate 'starving for air' wouldn't it guys? Piece of Soda Can behind plenum connection will take 3 minutes, max. Run it with it from cold and see if it is telling you anything, just for S.A.G. Thook is right, and with mine, when I pumped 5" of vacuum into it when warm...STALL, QUICK!...Pumps are 20$ at Pep boys right now for a MityVac....good for one man bleeding, too)
21. Firing order correct
22. Unplugged throttle dampner hose from intake tube and taped the hole=no change
23. THW (engine coolant temp sensor voltage) is good(is it GOOD at the ECU THOUGH?)
24. Checked resistance between new O2 and battery negative= .5 ohms
25. Replaced exhaust manifold gaskets and also 2 donut gaskets
26. VS voltage (air meter signal) a little high at idle(Find out why, Alan. Too much voltage to these things is NEVER good, ....the AFM, I believe(PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK) should be 5v, never more. If you have bad resistance, wouldn't that increase voltage?)
27. AFM flapper moves freely(GOOD)
28. Plugs are gapped right and are black, but not wet(They stink to high heaven, right?)
Areas of concern:
1. Found single wire going no where 8 volts with key on.
2. 3 wires going to the igniter have been spliced=IGT circuit has high resistance
3. 1 Vac line kinked in rail along valve cover(NOT GOOD, EVER, and if it's an EGR vacuum line...it would be one of the lower two...Which one is it?)
4. Throttle dampner(Why concerned???)
5. Wiring harness(Very Possible, especially if this guy is such a 'mickey mouse artist'.....but don't tear it apart just yet, ok?)
6. ECU(CHECK MORE, and read up on 4Crawler.com, or ask Thook, ...I think he's pretty apt with the ECU readings.)
7. New Bosch O2 sensor……….is it good?(Get a Denso, period! I can't be sure, Alan, but my friend has a Denso from offline and it does NOT look the same as mine. He took a Phone Pic for me--He's in OR-- And he's having trouble with it, he thinks. Even my former mechanic--Good guy-- Said he NEVER orders those, ...only Dealer with the O2-TPS that HE WILL use AF-meters that are used and working are fine...50-75$)
8. Vac hose from top of FPR goes straight to valve on intake(Should come from the Pass Side line of the VSV, at least on my 87...PLENTY of pics on my build thread and in my photobucket albums, HUNDREDS, and it's public, so feel free. "imachefbrotha" is my ID, I believe.)
Things to check:
1. Check splices on igniter wires with meter(YES!)
2. Valve adjustment(YES! AND WHEN IN THERE, see if things are right, ....take pics, etc. if you have to ask. I'll elaborate later)
3. Recheck vac lines and routing(YES)
4. Voltage test TPS at ECU again
5.Block off EGR
6. Fuel pressure
7. Fuel return line for obstructions and location on FPR
8. Injector pulses
9. Check spark
10. Check intake tube for cracks
11. Press hard on brake pedal to check for drop in RPM
12. Check codes
13. Recheck ECU readings for TPS, AFM, O2
14. Check VSV,IACV
Things to repair:
1. Exhaust leak after O2
2. Ignition wire splices
3. New plugs
4. New plug wires
5. New cap, rotor
Problem:
Low idle, Running rich, puffing black smoke/soot, has no power, cat glowing orange after I try to drive it, back fire thru intake.(NOT GOOD, but neither is driving with NO backpressure at all....this is why 2" Pipe is recommended for stock exhaust, nothing larger than 2.25" for any build up, and with working CAT, Muffler and pipe to tail from muffler....I know, some people drive straight pipe, but I think those are/SHOULD BE for specific applications. Would imagine this could effect you getting 'TRUE' readings if you have no backpressure at all)
PO changed the following:
Plugs, cap, rotor, fuel filter(All should be OEM according to most of the respected guys I've met on here), cat (missing). The parts don’t seam to be the best of quality. Did have AC, but has been removed.
What I have done:
1. Sprayed brake cleaner around intake and injectors—No change
2. Checked timing with jumper wire T-E1 = 5* BTDC
3. TPS check bad, replaced and adjusted on the bench with ohm meter
4. Tested cold start injector. First I unplugged it while running=No change. Then pulled it out and energized it=sprays good. When deenergized it shut off with no seepage.
5. Replaced injectors
6. O2 code-Replaced with Bosch
7. Cut exhaust off before cat to check for blockage=no change
8. Swapped distributor with 89. 86 pickup coil resistance=179 ohms, 1989=145 ohms. Limit is 180 ohms per the 87 FSM
9. Swapped plug wires due too high resistance=no change
10. Advance the timing to 12*=runs a little better
11. Auxillary air valve line to throttle body clamped off=engine dies
12. Checked 4 engine grounds all are secure. Resistance from engine to negative battery post =.5 ohms
13. Compression 180, 170, 175, 180
14. Checked PCV=good
15. Checked the VTA circuit of new TPS= has steady climb until the last ½” of travel to WOT then it falls off. Idle=.7, ½” from full travel= 1.74, WOT=1.45 on a 20K ohm range
16. Checked all grounds at ECU to chassis ground=0.00
17. ECU resistance check= several out of spec. meter @2K
18. Unplugged new TPS while running=no change(THIS IS VERY telling, trust me....I've learned this over HOURS of trying to diagnose things. TPS removed should ALWAYS dump more fuel. It might not be noticeable because, well, YOU'RE ALREADY RICH beyond belief, maybe?)
19. Disconnect PCV or master cyl vac line makes it run better by leaning it out.(Another HUGE Sign that something SPECIFIC within "FUEL" is going wrong. In your ECU, you also have Drivers for each injector...I believe they all fire at once on the 22re, but I can't say for sure if those drivers could effect it in ^THIS^ way, as you're dealing with. Mine stalls within .5 seconds when you pull the Brake Booster....it's about the biggest vacuum leak you can create, ....seems VERY telling again of fuel just DUMPING.....Maybe your ECU is not relating to the TPS at all, or at least in the right way, causing this 'TPS disconnected' type condition all the time....but still, IT WOULD NOT be that rich, no way. I read below in someones post that 31max fuel pressure is low...sure, and yet, WHY WOULD IT BE SO RICH, if pressure is that low? Seems VERY odd....Could he have a crack in the rail,or more, causing it to pour past the injectors? Hmmm, doubt it)
20. Checked EGR=checked good, but also swapped it out with the 89=no change.(Block off EGR to be sure, if it's stuck shut then it would assimilate 'starving for air' wouldn't it guys? Piece of Soda Can behind plenum connection will take 3 minutes, max. Run it with it from cold and see if it is telling you anything, just for S.A.G. Thook is right, and with mine, when I pumped 5" of vacuum into it when warm...STALL, QUICK!...Pumps are 20$ at Pep boys right now for a MityVac....good for one man bleeding, too)
21. Firing order correct
22. Unplugged throttle dampner hose from intake tube and taped the hole=no change
23. THW (engine coolant temp sensor voltage) is good(is it GOOD at the ECU THOUGH?)
24. Checked resistance between new O2 and battery negative= .5 ohms
25. Replaced exhaust manifold gaskets and also 2 donut gaskets
26. VS voltage (air meter signal) a little high at idle(Find out why, Alan. Too much voltage to these things is NEVER good, ....the AFM, I believe(PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK) should be 5v, never more. If you have bad resistance, wouldn't that increase voltage?)
27. AFM flapper moves freely(GOOD)
28. Plugs are gapped right and are black, but not wet(They stink to high heaven, right?)
Areas of concern:
1. Found single wire going no where 8 volts with key on.
2. 3 wires going to the igniter have been spliced=IGT circuit has high resistance
3. 1 Vac line kinked in rail along valve cover(NOT GOOD, EVER, and if it's an EGR vacuum line...it would be one of the lower two...Which one is it?)
4. Throttle dampner(Why concerned???)
5. Wiring harness(Very Possible, especially if this guy is such a 'mickey mouse artist'.....but don't tear it apart just yet, ok?)
6. ECU(CHECK MORE, and read up on 4Crawler.com, or ask Thook, ...I think he's pretty apt with the ECU readings.)
7. New Bosch O2 sensor……….is it good?(Get a Denso, period! I can't be sure, Alan, but my friend has a Denso from offline and it does NOT look the same as mine. He took a Phone Pic for me--He's in OR-- And he's having trouble with it, he thinks. Even my former mechanic--Good guy-- Said he NEVER orders those, ...only Dealer with the O2-TPS that HE WILL use AF-meters that are used and working are fine...50-75$)
8. Vac hose from top of FPR goes straight to valve on intake(Should come from the Pass Side line of the VSV, at least on my 87...PLENTY of pics on my build thread and in my photobucket albums, HUNDREDS, and it's public, so feel free. "imachefbrotha" is my ID, I believe.)
Things to check:
1. Check splices on igniter wires with meter(YES!)
2. Valve adjustment(YES! AND WHEN IN THERE, see if things are right, ....take pics, etc. if you have to ask. I'll elaborate later)
3. Recheck vac lines and routing(YES)
4. Voltage test TPS at ECU again
5.Block off EGR
6. Fuel pressure
7. Fuel return line for obstructions and location on FPR
8. Injector pulses
9. Check spark
10. Check intake tube for cracks
11. Press hard on brake pedal to check for drop in RPM
12. Check codes
13. Recheck ECU readings for TPS, AFM, O2
14. Check VSV,IACV
Things to repair:
1. Exhaust leak after O2
2. Ignition wire splices
3. New plugs
4. New plug wires
5. New cap, rotor
Sorry if I'm missing posts beyond this....If I've doubled up on something, oh well, right? YOU HAVE A LIST!
hahaha.
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 06-13-2010 at 09:48 PM.
06-13-2010, 09:45 PM
#51
Registered User
Yeah, right. Carbon on the rings/pistons and valves can create high compression readings. That water trick sb5walker supplied is a good idea.
Crapola....I feel for ya, Alan. Big project cleaning up someone else's mess. Been there.
Crapola....I feel for ya, Alan. Big project cleaning up someone else's mess. Been there.
06-13-2010, 10:59 PM
#52
Registered User
Okay, you'll learn if you read the autoshop link, but the fuel pressure up valve/VSV is for creating more fuel pressure under hot soak conditions. It's a good thing to have! But, the line........it runs from the FPR to the VSV and then to the three way on your plenum....where it's bolted off.
The only thing that single wire could be for is the temp switch that would otherwise be on the top of the thermo housing. You're truck should have one, but apparently someone.....for whatever reason......swapped out. No biggy. The temp switch would be there for a reason, but I forget why right now. It's not the source of your issues, though. I think the ECU's going to be a big one, though, if your finding out of spec areas.
Oh....that crimped steel vac line, if it's not for the EGR, is probably for the fuel evap canister. Look on you throttle body for the "P" port. See if there's a hose there. If there is, see if it's running to the evap can. If not, you can bypass that hard line a run a solid right to the can. The other two ports on the TB would be for the EGR modulator.........I do believe. Like I said, mine's gone now, so not sure.
The only thing that single wire could be for is the temp switch that would otherwise be on the top of the thermo housing. You're truck should have one, but apparently someone.....for whatever reason......swapped out. No biggy. The temp switch would be there for a reason, but I forget why right now. It's not the source of your issues, though. I think the ECU's going to be a big one, though, if your finding out of spec areas.
Oh....that crimped steel vac line, if it's not for the EGR, is probably for the fuel evap canister. Look on you throttle body for the "P" port. See if there's a hose there. If there is, see if it's running to the evap can. If not, you can bypass that hard line a run a solid right to the can. The other two ports on the TB would be for the EGR modulator.........I do believe. Like I said, mine's gone now, so not sure.
Last edited by thook; 06-13-2010 at 11:02 PM.
06-14-2010, 08:19 AM
#53
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I will comment on previous post later, I'm at lunch right now. I don't have much time. I did order a denso O2 today. I have also attached a pic of the 1986 TCCS (Toyota computer control system). It shows the vac line going from the FPR straight to the plenum. Am I wrong? The more I look at the pic the more I don't see things, like VSV's and other vac valves.
Does the 86 have a FPU (Fuel pressure up system)? I haven't seen anything about it thru all my reading?
Does the 86 have a FPU (Fuel pressure up system)? I haven't seen anything about it thru all my reading?
06-14-2010, 08:58 AM
#54
Registered User
It appears to be run directly to the plenum in the diagram, yes. All I can say is my '86 is bone stock and has one..........a FPU system, that is. In the link I posted, the autoshop article states the FPU is used "many" engines......which to me would mean it may have not been used on all engines. In which case, it could mean it may not be entirely necessary. But, then again, the design differences between engines may dictate whether it's necessary or not. If I were to make an educated guess, as long as you're getting consistent and adequate fuel pressure via the FPR, the VSV may not be needed at this point and/or not part of your problem.
Gotta go. Later......
Gotta go. Later......
06-14-2010, 09:51 AM
#55
Registered User
I will comment on previous post later, I'm at lunch right now. I don't have much time. I did order a denso O2 today. I have also attached a pic of the 1986 TCCS (Toyota computer control system). It shows the vac line going from the FPR straight to the plenum. Am I wrong? The more I look at the pic the more I don't see things, like VSV's and other vac valves.
Does the 86 have a FPU (Fuel pressure up system)? I haven't seen anything about it thru all my reading?
Does the 86 have a FPU (Fuel pressure up system)? I haven't seen anything about it thru all my reading?
Compare to the 89 and later 22REs which should be 38-44 psi with no vac and 33-37 w/vac.
I still believe there should be a vsv in the vac line from FPR to plenum, otherwise, why use vac at all? You could just use a lower pressure regulator. I wouldn't stake too much by that diagram - it is very simplified in many areas.
06-14-2010, 12:52 PM
#56
Registered User
Optimally, yeah....there should be. But, I don't think it's going to be a problem until the engine sees regular operating conditions. IOW, it's barely running, yet. So, a last thing on the list sorta thing, I'd say. The FPU valve need only operate and does only operate under hot soak starting conditions allowing only a certain amount of atmospheric air (a controlled vacuum leak, as it were) into the regulator to prevent fuel vapor formation and for only up to two minutes after cranking. The ECU energizes it via input from the THW and STA signals. I'm not real sure it has any function when under heavy loads considering the '86 model ECU doesn't have the set up necessary to operate it at that point. Not that I could tell, anyway. I looked, but I've been wrong before. I'm inclined to believe it's not until later models that that function was available or maybe even just on different engines other than the 22re.
Last edited by thook; 06-14-2010 at 12:53 PM.
06-14-2010, 08:56 PM
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Here are the lastest ECU Voltage test:
Things that I see that are out spec
1. Throttle valve fully closed
2. Throttle valve fully open
3. W-E1 a little high
4. VC-E2, VS-E2, are in limits, but as soon as I touch the probes and get a reading the numbers slowly start to fall by .1 every couple seconds. I never waited to see how far they would fall. I waited about 30 seconds and the numbers slowly fell.
5. Intake temp sensor @ 83*
6. Coolant temp was warm but not at full temp.
Here is the lastest ECU resistance check
Things I noticed:
1. Throttle valve fully opened was low
2. VCC-E2 was low
3. Intake air temp was low considering it was 83* in the shop
4. +B-E2 Main relay was low
5. VC-E2 airflow is low
Guys bare with me on getting the test done. I'm a little slow at understanding all of this. Also slow at getting it done. If I haven't done a test that you have mentioned yet don't think I won't. It's just a matter of time. I'm working off the check list right now. I will be asking the proper way to do some of these test if need be. I don't have a fuel press gauge but I can get one. Again thanks so much for your time and effort.
Things that I see that are out spec
1. Throttle valve fully closed
2. Throttle valve fully open
3. W-E1 a little high
4. VC-E2, VS-E2, are in limits, but as soon as I touch the probes and get a reading the numbers slowly start to fall by .1 every couple seconds. I never waited to see how far they would fall. I waited about 30 seconds and the numbers slowly fell.
5. Intake temp sensor @ 83*
6. Coolant temp was warm but not at full temp.
Here is the lastest ECU resistance check
Things I noticed:
1. Throttle valve fully opened was low
2. VCC-E2 was low
3. Intake air temp was low considering it was 83* in the shop
4. +B-E2 Main relay was low
5. VC-E2 airflow is low
Guys bare with me on getting the test done. I'm a little slow at understanding all of this. Also slow at getting it done. If I haven't done a test that you have mentioned yet don't think I won't. It's just a matter of time. I'm working off the check list right now. I will be asking the proper way to do some of these test if need be. I don't have a fuel press gauge but I can get one. Again thanks so much for your time and effort.
06-14-2010, 09:06 PM
#59
I'm just tossin in while you wait for the more experienced YotaTechies...
Are the readings on the unit's you're testing against the ECU coming out ok, but not really on the ECU tests? I see you're swapping things back, but I'm a lil confused now as to what you're putting back....are they metering out ok, just not performing due to what you think might be wiring or ECU issues?
Seems more of the Back East side Trucks more often have issues with the Harness, etc., ...at least from what I've read, ..due to humidity and cold and then hot as heck, etc., right? lol. Can you get it to a yard that has an ECU you could swap out with? Most of the yards near me, if they have one, say "come on in and try it if it's running enough to get here...if it works, great, if not, try something else and let me know and I'll see if I have it"....Not much available to you, I think you said, right?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "it's probably what I was dealing with", or even that it's bad wiring in the harness. Neither am I suggesting you just start swapping out things at the yards near you. Just a thought...maybe you could rule it out if you tried a couple known working ones and then have no/much change, ya know?
I'll be watching for the Thook, Flecker and so on responses....Hope you're almost there, bud!
Are the readings on the unit's you're testing against the ECU coming out ok, but not really on the ECU tests? I see you're swapping things back, but I'm a lil confused now as to what you're putting back....are they metering out ok, just not performing due to what you think might be wiring or ECU issues?
Seems more of the Back East side Trucks more often have issues with the Harness, etc., ...at least from what I've read, ..due to humidity and cold and then hot as heck, etc., right? lol. Can you get it to a yard that has an ECU you could swap out with? Most of the yards near me, if they have one, say "come on in and try it if it's running enough to get here...if it works, great, if not, try something else and let me know and I'll see if I have it"....Not much available to you, I think you said, right?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "it's probably what I was dealing with", or even that it's bad wiring in the harness. Neither am I suggesting you just start swapping out things at the yards near you. Just a thought...maybe you could rule it out if you tried a couple known working ones and then have no/much change, ya know?
I'll be watching for the Thook, Flecker and so on responses....Hope you're almost there, bud!
06-15-2010, 12:30 PM
#60
Registered User
Good work, Alan. I'm actually going to have to grab a notebook and take a little time to compare your readings, but I'll be back soon. Hopefully tonight.
