SMT6 Open/Closed Loop fix...idea....
11-24-2006, 10:09 AM
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SMT6 Open/Closed Loop fix...idea....
Bring on the SMT disscussion! They are really starting to become popular and i am having trouble stocking these bad boys 
I have an idea to throw to you guys about the problem we are having with the ecu correcting our values below the open loop threshold.
ESSPECIALY for us auto guys
Here is the trick:
What you need
1 o2 sensor simulator (2 maybe)
Smt6
A 5 pin relay where it rests connecting the main line to a secondary line when the relay is de-energized and when energized it switchs to another output.
NOW here we go
Relay setup like this
2
1 4 3
5
(not exact but yea)
Pin 2 is connected to the ECU O2 sensor input
Pin 1 is connected to the +12 fused (less then an amp really needed) Swtiched source prefered.
Pin 3 is connected to the SMT6 output switch
Pin 4 is connected to a o2 sensor simulator
Pin 5 is connected to the stock o2 sensor signal
Now find out what the LOAD DEFLECTION on the smt6 is when you hit 1-2psi...
Now get the smt6 to swtich at that load % (we will say 60%)
So when you are driving around the city below that psi the ecu will see the o2 sensor signal and correct as normal as soon as you punch it, but not enough to get into open loop as per normal, (say 65%) the smt6 switchs the relay ON and connects pin 2 and 4 so now the ecu is reading 14.7 afr and is happy but really you are adjusting the fuel via the smt6
Now i thought about any problems with this setup and thought what if we hit the load cell some other way? I can ONLY see this being a problem if you are using load deflection based on TPS input which is NOT right becuase at 65% you can be at different psi/in hg (esspecialy in turbo setups), b ut if you have it set to read maf flow then normally around 1-2psi you will see the same airflow but never see that airflow reading unless you are in boost.
The second problem i can see is the switching....will it affect anything...will the ecu sense a problem here?
Ideas?
I have an idea to throw to you guys about the problem we are having with the ecu correcting our values below the open loop threshold.
ESSPECIALY for us auto guys
Here is the trick:
What you need
1 o2 sensor simulator (2 maybe)
Smt6
A 5 pin relay where it rests connecting the main line to a secondary line when the relay is de-energized and when energized it switchs to another output.
NOW here we go
Relay setup like this
2
1 4 3
5
(not exact but yea)
Pin 2 is connected to the ECU O2 sensor input
Pin 1 is connected to the +12 fused (less then an amp really needed) Swtiched source prefered.
Pin 3 is connected to the SMT6 output switch
Pin 4 is connected to a o2 sensor simulator
Pin 5 is connected to the stock o2 sensor signal
Now find out what the LOAD DEFLECTION on the smt6 is when you hit 1-2psi...
Now get the smt6 to swtich at that load % (we will say 60%)
So when you are driving around the city below that psi the ecu will see the o2 sensor signal and correct as normal as soon as you punch it, but not enough to get into open loop as per normal, (say 65%) the smt6 switchs the relay ON and connects pin 2 and 4 so now the ecu is reading 14.7 afr and is happy but really you are adjusting the fuel via the smt6
Now i thought about any problems with this setup and thought what if we hit the load cell some other way? I can ONLY see this being a problem if you are using load deflection based on TPS input which is NOT right becuase at 65% you can be at different psi/in hg (esspecialy in turbo setups), b ut if you have it set to read maf flow then normally around 1-2psi you will see the same airflow but never see that airflow reading unless you are in boost.
The second problem i can see is the switching....will it affect anything...will the ecu sense a problem here?
Ideas?
12-02-2006, 10:11 PM
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bump for the guys who have not seen it yet....
im looking into getting a little unit made that will work with the smt6 and do all this just to try out. should happen in Jan
im looking into getting a little unit made that will work with the smt6 and do all this just to try out. should happen in Jan
12-09-2006, 09:25 PM
#3
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Johnny!
Like we talked about on the phone tonight, I think you're totally on track. What you're aiming at is the same concept as what SplitSecond is trying to do with the ESC1 but as I talk about over here, that box simply doesn't work.
As you say, I'm pretty convinced these days that all you need to do in order to fake the ECU is set the A/FR to 14.7:1, and I'm also convinced that to do that it only takes a precision voltage reference. The whole "magic fake-out" signal that we (and other folks) have talked about in the past is bunk.
As for the switching transients, I think you'll be fine. That relay's gonna switch purty dern quick, and if you should need more speed we can talk about swapping it out for something solid-state like an SCR.
Kickin'!
Like we talked about on the phone tonight, I think you're totally on track. What you're aiming at is the same concept as what SplitSecond is trying to do with the ESC1 but as I talk about over here, that box simply doesn't work.
As you say, I'm pretty convinced these days that all you need to do in order to fake the ECU is set the A/FR to 14.7:1, and I'm also convinced that to do that it only takes a precision voltage reference. The whole "magic fake-out" signal that we (and other folks) have talked about in the past is bunk.
As for the switching transients, I think you'll be fine. That relay's gonna switch purty dern quick, and if you should need more speed we can talk about swapping it out for something solid-state like an SCR.
Kickin'!
12-11-2006, 11:29 PM
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Would you know how to correct a problem that I am having with my Tacoma, I have an SMT 5 chip in place, installed by my buddy and my truck is reading a P0304 trouble code...replaced MAF and changed my spark plug wires back to stock and new spark plugs...coil packs are good also...It HAS to be the wires coming from the chip...Know how I can fix my problem? Just today my truck was having trouble idling and accelerating smoothly, I can hear my truck rumble when it switches gears...its an automatic. Thank you!
12-12-2006, 05:53 AM
#6
Registered User
Hi Matt;
Umm, a P0304 is a misfire code (specifically cylinder 4, which is the middle cylinder on the driver's side). I'm not sure that the SMT would be causing this.
Misfires can come from a number of things... too much heat in the cylinder, a cracked plug, lean cylinder (which could be a faulty injector, injector wiring), carbon build-up in the cylinder, radical timing advances, or an extreme case - a cracked valve. There're more...
Are you supercharged? Do you have other fuel mods? What were you looking for when you put the SMT5 on?
Is the analog input of the SMT5 hooked into the TPS or the MAF? What do the maps of the SMT5 look like? Is the timing cranked out?
Is the MIL lamp blinking at you under load or is it just "on" all the time? If you clear the code will it come back? Does the code trip at under or under load?
The rough idle and rough acceleration comes from the misfire.
We'll need more info to help figure out what's up... and umm, this is kinda' off-topic for this thread. Starting a new thread may help others later with the same problem. And um... did you try searching for "P0304"?
Umm, a P0304 is a misfire code (specifically cylinder 4, which is the middle cylinder on the driver's side). I'm not sure that the SMT would be causing this.
Misfires can come from a number of things... too much heat in the cylinder, a cracked plug, lean cylinder (which could be a faulty injector, injector wiring), carbon build-up in the cylinder, radical timing advances, or an extreme case - a cracked valve. There're more...
Are you supercharged? Do you have other fuel mods? What were you looking for when you put the SMT5 on?
Is the analog input of the SMT5 hooked into the TPS or the MAF? What do the maps of the SMT5 look like? Is the timing cranked out?
Is the MIL lamp blinking at you under load or is it just "on" all the time? If you clear the code will it come back? Does the code trip at under or under load?
The rough idle and rough acceleration comes from the misfire.
We'll need more info to help figure out what's up... and umm, this is kinda' off-topic for this thread.
Starting a new thread may help others later with the same problem. And um... did you try searching for "P0304"?
Last edited by midiwall; 12-12-2006 at 05:57 AM.
12-12-2006, 05:58 AM
#7
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And given that I have avatars turned off... I didn't see that yours looks a like like a S/C.
And and... you might wanna put your "My Rig" info in as a sig. It can help in times like these to figure out what you're running.
So... now that I know you're S/C'd, more q's:
How long has the S/C been on? Did you upgrade the fuel pump and/or injector sizes? What plugs are you running? Do you have pinging/knocking issues? Did you do the "FPR Mod"?
And and... you might wanna put your "My Rig" info in as a sig. It can help in times like these to figure out what you're running.
So... now that I know you're S/C'd, more q's:
How long has the S/C been on? Did you upgrade the fuel pump and/or injector sizes? What plugs are you running? Do you have pinging/knocking issues? Did you do the "FPR Mod"?
Last edited by midiwall; 12-12-2006 at 06:01 AM.
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12-12-2006, 06:35 AM
#8
Contributing Member
Here's a good site on using diodes with relays.
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
A quote from the webpage.
"Quenching Diodes:
Anytime that a relay coil is driven by a circuit that is not specifically designed to drive a relay, you should use a quenching/suppression diode connected in parallel with the relay coil. The diagram below will show the connection of the diode. Initially, you may think the diode serves no purpose because the voltage applied to the relay cannot pass through the diode. This is true when the relay is energized. The diode comes into play when the power source is removed from the relay coil. When power is applied to the relay coil, a magnetic field is created and energy is stored in the coil. When power is removed, the magnetic field collapses causing a reverse voltage to be generated (it's called inductive kickback or back EMF). The back EMF can easily reach 200 volts. The diode will absorb the reverse voltage spike. This voltage, if not absorbed by the diode, will cause premature failure of switch contacts and may cause the failure of power switching transistors."
Anytime that a relay coil is driven by a circuit that is not specifically designed to drive a relay, you should use a quenching/suppression diode connected in parallel with the relay coil. The diagram below will show the connection of the diode. Initially, you may think the diode serves no purpose because the voltage applied to the relay cannot pass through the diode. This is true when the relay is energized. The diode comes into play when the power source is removed from the relay coil. When power is applied to the relay coil, a magnetic field is created and energy is stored in the coil. When power is removed, the magnetic field collapses causing a reverse voltage to be generated (it's called inductive kickback or back EMF). The back EMF can easily reach 200 volts. The diode will absorb the reverse voltage spike. This voltage, if not absorbed by the diode, will cause premature failure of switch contacts and may cause the failure of power switching transistors."
Last edited by mt_goat; 12-12-2006 at 06:41 AM.
12-12-2006, 09:54 AM
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Hi Matt;
Umm, a P0304 is a misfire code (specifically cylinder 4, which is the middle cylinder on the driver's side). I'm not sure that the SMT would be causing this.
Misfires can come from a number of things... too much heat in the cylinder, a cracked plug, lean cylinder (which could be a faulty injector, injector wiring), carbon build-up in the cylinder, radical timing advances, or an extreme case - a cracked valve. There're more...
Are you supercharged? Do you have other fuel mods? What were you looking for when you put the SMT5 on?
Is the analog input of the SMT5 hooked into the TPS or the MAF? What do the maps of the SMT5 look like? Is the timing cranked out?
Is the MIL lamp blinking at you under load or is it just "on" all the time? If you clear the code will it come back? Does the code trip at under or under load?
The rough idle and rough acceleration comes from the misfire.
We'll need more info to help figure out what's up... and umm, this is kinda' off-topic for this thread. Starting a new thread may help others later with the same problem. And um... did you try searching for "P0304"?
Umm, a P0304 is a misfire code (specifically cylinder 4, which is the middle cylinder on the driver's side). I'm not sure that the SMT would be causing this.
Misfires can come from a number of things... too much heat in the cylinder, a cracked plug, lean cylinder (which could be a faulty injector, injector wiring), carbon build-up in the cylinder, radical timing advances, or an extreme case - a cracked valve. There're more...
Are you supercharged? Do you have other fuel mods? What were you looking for when you put the SMT5 on?
Is the analog input of the SMT5 hooked into the TPS or the MAF? What do the maps of the SMT5 look like? Is the timing cranked out?
Is the MIL lamp blinking at you under load or is it just "on" all the time? If you clear the code will it come back? Does the code trip at under or under load?
The rough idle and rough acceleration comes from the misfire.
We'll need more info to help figure out what's up... and umm, this is kinda' off-topic for this thread.
Starting a new thread may help others later with the same problem. And um... did you try searching for "P0304"?Yes I have had the P0304 code for a few months and it keeps on coming back after I have it reset. The Fuel injectors were replaced with the stock Supra injectors when I had the supercharger installed by my buddy, which the injectors are 318cc? well he also had helped me install the SMT also. I have already replaced a new MAF, new spark plugs, and switched my plug wires back to stock from the NGK ones, just in case. I just have the stock supra injectors, supercharger and the SMT 5 chip for upgraded mods. I am real frustrated because I cannot figure out what is causing my problem. I figure a loose wire from the chip can cause an engine to misfire in a specific cylinder...Even when I went to the Toyota delaership weeks back, they first said it was that my spark plugs werent tight, not the problem, came back, and then said I needed to replace the #4 injector, I replaced all 6 most recently, so that can't be it either....I have posted on other threads, unsuccessful.
12-12-2006, 10:02 AM
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Yes I have had the P0304 code for a few months and it keeps on coming back after I have it reset. The Fuel injectors were replaced with the stock Supra injectors when I had the supercharger installed by my buddy, which the injectors are 318cc? well he also had helped me install the SMT also. I have already replaced a new MAF, new spark plugs, and switched my plug wires back to stock from the NGK ones, just in case. I just have the stock supra injectors, supercharger and the SMT 5 chip for upgraded mods. I am real frustrated because I cannot figure out what is causing my problem. I figure a loose wire from the chip can cause an engine to misfire in a specific cylinder...Even when I went to the Toyota delaership weeks back, they first said it was that my spark plugs werent tight, not the problem, came back, and then said I needed to replace the #4 injector, I replaced all 6 most recently, so that can't be it either....I have posted on other threads, unsuccessful.
12-12-2006, 10:08 AM
#11
Registered User
If the SMT was going to cause a misfire, it wouldn't always be on a single cylinder.
So... There are some (fairly important) questions hanging in the air...
- What plugs are you using?
- Did you replace the fuel pump when you did the injectors?
- Did you do the "FPR Mod"?
- Does the engine Ping/Knock?
- What do the SMT maps look like (post a screen shot if you can)?
- Did this ever work right?
- Does the MIL blink and then go steady?
- How many miles are on the engine?
- Ever had the timing belt changed? If so, did this start happening around that time?
- Is the exhaust tone louder since this started happening?
- Do you smell raw fuel at the tail pipe?
- Do you have an EGT gauge, if so, what's it showing under boost?
- Do you have an A/FR meter, if so, what's it showing across the board?
Originally Posted by blink
This is a thread about tricking the engine into open loop mode. Not a what does this code mean and how do i fix it.
Last edited by midiwall; 12-12-2006 at 10:09 AM.
12-12-2006, 10:19 AM
#12
Registered User
I have another one for you... I see from a search that Scottsdale is anywhere from 1200-5000' above sea level. Do you happen to know what end you fall into?
12-12-2006, 10:29 AM
#13
Contributing Member
Your 1200-1400ft number should cover 99% of Scottsdale unless you're driving on Camelback mountain.
Last edited by MTL_4runner; 12-12-2006 at 10:32 AM.
12-12-2006, 03:35 PM
#15
Registered User
n/m then Matt, this point ain't important!
(thanks Jamie!)
12-12-2006, 08:26 PM
#16
Registered User
Bring on the SMT disscussion! They are really starting to become popular and i am having trouble stocking these bad boys
I have an idea to throw to you guys about the problem we are having with the ecu correcting our values below the open loop threshold.
ESSPECIALY for us auto guys
Here is the trick:
What you need
1 o2 sensor simulator (2 maybe)
Smt6
A 5 pin relay where it rests connecting the main line to a secondary line when the relay is de-energized and when energized it switchs to another output.
NOW here we go
Relay setup like this
2
1 4 3
5
(not exact but yea)
Pin 2 is connected to the ECU O2 sensor input
Pin 1 is connected to the +12 fused (less then an amp really needed) Swtiched source prefered.
Pin 3 is connected to the SMT6 output switch
Pin 4 is connected to a o2 sensor simulator
Pin 5 is connected to the stock o2 sensor signal
Now find out what the LOAD DEFLECTION on the smt6 is when you hit 1-2psi...
Now get the smt6 to swtich at that load % (we will say 60%)
So when you are driving around the city below that psi the ecu will see the o2 sensor signal and correct as normal as soon as you punch it, but not enough to get into open loop as per normal, (say 65%) the smt6 switchs the relay ON and connects pin 2 and 4 so now the ecu is reading 14.7 afr and is happy but really you are adjusting the fuel via the smt6
Now i thought about any problems with this setup and thought what if we hit the load cell some other way? I can ONLY see this being a problem if you are using load deflection based on TPS input which is NOT right becuase at 65% you can be at different psi/in hg (esspecialy in turbo setups), b ut if you have it set to read maf flow then normally around 1-2psi you will see the same airflow but never see that airflow reading unless you are in boost.
The second problem i can see is the switching....will it affect anything...will the ecu sense a problem here?
Ideas?
I have an idea to throw to you guys about the problem we are having with the ecu correcting our values below the open loop threshold.
ESSPECIALY for us auto guys
Here is the trick:
What you need
1 o2 sensor simulator (2 maybe)
Smt6
A 5 pin relay where it rests connecting the main line to a secondary line when the relay is de-energized and when energized it switchs to another output.
NOW here we go
Relay setup like this
2
1 4 3
5
(not exact but yea)
Pin 2 is connected to the ECU O2 sensor input
Pin 1 is connected to the +12 fused (less then an amp really needed) Swtiched source prefered.
Pin 3 is connected to the SMT6 output switch
Pin 4 is connected to a o2 sensor simulator
Pin 5 is connected to the stock o2 sensor signal
Now find out what the LOAD DEFLECTION on the smt6 is when you hit 1-2psi...
Now get the smt6 to swtich at that load % (we will say 60%)
So when you are driving around the city below that psi the ecu will see the o2 sensor signal and correct as normal as soon as you punch it, but not enough to get into open loop as per normal, (say 65%) the smt6 switchs the relay ON and connects pin 2 and 4 so now the ecu is reading 14.7 afr and is happy but really you are adjusting the fuel via the smt6
Now i thought about any problems with this setup and thought what if we hit the load cell some other way? I can ONLY see this being a problem if you are using load deflection based on TPS input which is NOT right becuase at 65% you can be at different psi/in hg (esspecialy in turbo setups), b ut if you have it set to read maf flow then normally around 1-2psi you will see the same airflow but never see that airflow reading unless you are in boost.
The second problem i can see is the switching....will it affect anything...will the ecu sense a problem here?
Ideas?
12-13-2006, 12:08 AM
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[QUOTE=midiwall;50360902]Nope, can't happen, not in the way that you're thinking - that's not how the SMT boxes work. What you're thinking of is more down the lines of a ECU replacement which would control the firing of each cylinder. The SMT hookup is very simple (in comparison), it's only intercepting signals to fake the stock ECU into adding more fuel or changing the timing.
If the SMT was going to cause a misfire, it wouldn't always be on a single cylinder.
So... There are some (fairly important) questions hanging in the air...
I am using the stock spark plugs from the Toyota dealer.
The fuel pump is still stock, planning on switching to the Walbro 190lph when I have the time and money to set aside after the holiday.
I do not know what the FPR mod is.
I engine is rumbling and studdering when I accelerate, when i am at a street light it nearly dies, just started happening yesterday.
Fuel map looks fine to me.
The P0304 code popped up 3 or so months ago, tried fixing since...
Check engine light blinks now and goes steady everytime I drive.
Timing belt, water pump, and thermostat changed a week ago.
Truck has nearly 84,000miles on it.
Exhaust sounds like its skipping ever so often and is never really steady anymore, tone wise. sounds a bit different since this larger problem occurred.
I can usually smell fuel stronger than usual.
My boost gauge shows roughly 11-12h.g.
If the SMT was going to cause a misfire, it wouldn't always be on a single cylinder.
So... There are some (fairly important) questions hanging in the air...
- What plugs are you using?
- Did you replace the fuel pump when you did the injectors?
- Did you do the "FPR Mod"?
- Does the engine Ping/Knock?
- What do the SMT maps look like (post a screen shot if you can)?
- Did this ever work right?
- Does the MIL blink and then go steady?
- How many miles are on the engine?
- Ever had the timing belt changed? If so, did this start happening around that time?
- Is the exhaust tone louder since this started happening?
- Do you smell raw fuel at the tail pipe?
- Do you have an EGT gauge, if so, what's it showing under boost?
- Do you have an A/FR meter, if so, what's it showing across the board?
I am using the stock spark plugs from the Toyota dealer.
The fuel pump is still stock, planning on switching to the Walbro 190lph when I have the time and money to set aside after the holiday.
I do not know what the FPR mod is.
I engine is rumbling and studdering when I accelerate, when i am at a street light it nearly dies, just started happening yesterday.
Fuel map looks fine to me.
The P0304 code popped up 3 or so months ago, tried fixing since...
Check engine light blinks now and goes steady everytime I drive.
Timing belt, water pump, and thermostat changed a week ago.
Truck has nearly 84,000miles on it.
Exhaust sounds like its skipping ever so often and is never really steady anymore, tone wise. sounds a bit different since this larger problem occurred.
I can usually smell fuel stronger than usual.
My boost gauge shows roughly 11-12h.g.
12-13-2006, 12:25 AM
#18
Registered User
The fuel pump is still stock, planning on switching to the Walbro 190lph when I have the time and money to set aside after the holiday.
I do not know what the FPR mod is.
I engine is rumbling and studdering when I accelerate, when i am at a street light it nearly dies, just started happening yesterday.
The P0304 code popped up 3 or so months ago, tried fixing since...
Check engine light blinks now and goes steady everytime I drive.
Exhaust sounds like its skipping ever so often and is never really steady anymore, tone wise. sounds a bit different since this larger problem occurred.
I can usually smell fuel stronger than usual.
I do not know what the FPR mod is.
I engine is rumbling and studdering when I accelerate, when i am at a street light it nearly dies, just started happening yesterday.
The P0304 code popped up 3 or so months ago, tried fixing since...
Check engine light blinks now and goes steady everytime I drive.
Exhaust sounds like its skipping ever so often and is never really steady anymore, tone wise. sounds a bit different since this larger problem occurred.
I can usually smell fuel stronger than usual.
I had a reason to push you kinda' hard with those questions. I think you burned a valve.
Read these and tell me if they sound familiar: (note the author of the threads
)https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f123/stuck-injector-misfire-rapid-egt-increase-92921/
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f123/3-4-rebuild-100924/
I isolated the specific answers above 'cause some of them are definitely part of the cause - the others are symptoms.
(in no particular order)
The larger injectors won't do anything significant without the Walbro. There's simply not enough pressure on the fuel rails to make them push more fuel. The FPR is a freebie and would have helped. But honestly, since your avatar shows a black S/C, then you probably got the FPR instructions as part of that install.
The fuel smell is because you have raw fuel leaking past an exhaust valve and straight into the exhaust.
The blinking MIL is the ECU _YELLING_ at you that something is SERIOUSLY wrong - in this cause it's telling you that you're getting HUNDREDS of misfires in a very short time.
The exhaust note changed 'cause you're hearing the "woosh" of the piston through the open valve.
The fix is rough, look at my "3.4 rebuild" thread - the dealer will charge you around $2000-3000 to fix it. It requires pulling the heads, machining them down, replacing the valves and possibly one or more pistons.
Now, I could be wrong... but you have _exactly_ the same symptoms that I do (did). The "inches apart" is that I torched a valve in Cylinder #2, you're in #4. They're inches apart.
Others will chime in with their feelings, and I really hope that I'm wrong, but considering everything else you've tried... I don't think the outlook is good.
Sorry man.
12-13-2006, 01:27 AM
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Wow...thats not good at all then huh? Thats expensive...did you end up fixing your problem and how much did it end up costing you, and where did you get it fixed....Funny how the Toyota dealership couldn't tell me that right away...hmmm I don't know what to do. Thats a lot of money that I don't have...
