Better! The Velocity Stack Mod for your airbox (8hp for $3).
07-13-2010, 09:48 AM
#61
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Give it up dude, jeez...you must be an ............... supporter cause those are the only people I know who can look facts in the face and say they are not true.
If you don't like it then don't do it and quit crapping all over Justin's thread.
Nice work Stick...keep blazin the trail brotha
If you don't like it then don't do it and quit crapping all over Justin's thread.
Nice work Stick...keep blazin the trail brotha
Hahahahahaha
i love it!! so true!!
Last edited by sportbiker929; 07-13-2010 at 09:49 AM.
07-13-2010, 09:50 AM
#62
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... peak GAIN - sorry to confuse you. The topic of the sentence is the GAIN, but I guess I could have written GAIN three times in the sentence. I was worried about people telling me I was being condescending. Look at the graph - it shows that at the specified RPM, torque is falling off, but the stack is still improving power.
As for the politics, I didn't start it, I was just enjoying it.
Yup, I think stack length would make a difference. I considered it writing the story, I didn't want to complicate things... Blow air through a short straw, then blow the same way through a long straw - which one provides the most force of flow at the end? I would have used more stack length if there was more real estate, but I was trying to find a compromise between the length and a quality gap at the end of the stack within the airbox, while not having it protrude into the space in front of the airbox.
The exact purpose of the two-piece manifold on the V6 is to allow for longer intake runners, which directly affects flow and increases low-end torque. That was one of the genius moments of Ford's EFI 302. Didn't work so well on the 3.4 because the heads are even less efficient than the old E heads on the Mustangs.
I don't know the look of the 22RE airbox, but smaller motors generally benefit more from increased flow. I'd love to try one of these on the four-banger Taco or something similar. If anyone in San Diego wants to do one, drop me a line.
STICK
As for the politics, I didn't start it, I was just enjoying it.
Yup, I think stack length would make a difference. I considered it writing the story, I didn't want to complicate things... Blow air through a short straw, then blow the same way through a long straw - which one provides the most force of flow at the end? I would have used more stack length if there was more real estate, but I was trying to find a compromise between the length and a quality gap at the end of the stack within the airbox, while not having it protrude into the space in front of the airbox.
The exact purpose of the two-piece manifold on the V6 is to allow for longer intake runners, which directly affects flow and increases low-end torque. That was one of the genius moments of Ford's EFI 302. Didn't work so well on the 3.4 because the heads are even less efficient than the old E heads on the Mustangs.
I don't know the look of the 22RE airbox, but smaller motors generally benefit more from increased flow. I'd love to try one of these on the four-banger Taco or something similar. If anyone in San Diego wants to do one, drop me a line.
STICK
07-13-2010, 10:09 AM
#64
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I couldn't care less who started it - let's just keep it out of this thread from now on.
It's turning into a decent thread.
Arguing is 100% allowed here, as long as we keep it cordial and constructive I'm all for it.
Fink
It's turning into a decent thread.
Arguing is 100% allowed here, as long as we keep it cordial and constructive I'm all for it.
Fink
07-13-2010, 10:51 AM
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This thread went from informative to lame. A lot of replies were better left un-typed.
It's a well known fact that new cars come with VERY restrictive air boxes. This is for reduced engine harmonics/noise and dust prevention. The air box snorkel accounts for 25% of restriction in the intake system (before throttle body). THAT'S HUGE.
So yes, this type of mod does increase air flow to the engine.
If we can take Stick's word as truthful, then there were no variables. Simply 8 more HP as a result of the mod.
Tube length will have ZERO effect on increasing airflow in this case. BUT there could be a benefit of reduced intake temperature if the tube was elongated enough to reach fresh air.
Does the tube entrance radius effect anything? Probably not, results would probably be better if the bell shape was on the inside of the box. This would reduce turbulence and distribute air more evenly across the filter.
It's a well known fact that new cars come with VERY restrictive air boxes. This is for reduced engine harmonics/noise and dust prevention. The air box snorkel accounts for 25% of restriction in the intake system (before throttle body). THAT'S HUGE.
So yes, this type of mod does increase air flow to the engine.
If we can take Stick's word as truthful, then there were no variables. Simply 8 more HP as a result of the mod.
Tube length will have ZERO effect on increasing airflow in this case. BUT there could be a benefit of reduced intake temperature if the tube was elongated enough to reach fresh air.
Does the tube entrance radius effect anything? Probably not, results would probably be better if the bell shape was on the inside of the box. This would reduce turbulence and distribute air more evenly across the filter.
Last edited by LifeOnABoard; 07-13-2010 at 10:52 AM.
07-13-2010, 11:11 AM
#66
Not that the funnel tube that the OP stuck in the intake box will make a difference either way, but saying that sticking a tube is better than no tube absolutely conflicts scientific theory.
Imagine a hypothetic infinitely large wall with no thickness. That's essentially what the air box is. On one side of the wall the air pressure is lower than on the other. Naturally air will try to equalize through the hole. It will equalize the fastest as is. No pipes. No funnels. Nothing.
07-13-2010, 11:19 AM
#67
Seriously, I have had some "persons" say some of my posts/mods were a waste of time, but I have found this very interesting. I don't know alot about the physics concerning the use of Dynometers and what they really show, but I do understand a few basic things concerning our rigs,
1) The harder you push on the accelerator, the lower your gas milage. that is a physical law!
I have documented proof of this, my daughter driving my 4runner and my driving my 4runner on the same trip
2) When you are driving the speed limit even when it is 70 miles per hour, these engines are only turning, what 3000 rpm? I know it depends on if manual or automatic and gearing of the differential, but stock configurations? Doesn't seem we realy get into the REAL power range until well past the normal driving RPM range.
3) I believe that offroad is where the real test of more horse power for our trucks is the most beneficial regardless of what mod you do. Thats mostly why we bought these 4 wheel drive trucks right? But these comments are just MY humble opinion.
Most know me for doing mods on here using parts and pieces from other vehicles including 4runners and Tacoma parts (I have VW, GM and not just truck parts!
) I also try to find ways to improve or at least make the mod an adventure even for those who fear box end wrenches and screwdirvers. (And NO Ron, I wasn't referring to you my friend!) I will say this, if I was in the San Diego area now, I would be tuning into your show Stick. I am learning more interesting things about my truck in this thread.
Thank you!
I too have been the receiver of "critical" feedback on my mods on occasion so keep posting up hard numbers and real world facts, hard to dispute the numbers.
Remember, just because some one disputes or doesn't believe the facts doesn't change the facts. Just shows that they are limited in their thinking. Keep the info coming. Really interested to see the stats on the drop-in K&N as well as the K&N cold air. Looking forward to more on this thread and the other ones when you test them. Excellent!
07-13-2010, 11:54 AM
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Tube length always has an effect on airflow. Think about trying to blow into a mile long straw, vs. one 12" long. Which one do you think will be easier to blow into?
Not that the funnel tube that the OP stuck in the intake box will make a difference either way, but saying that sticking a tube is better than no tube absolutely conflicts scientific theory.
Imagine a hypothetic infinitely large wall with no thickness. That's essentially what the air box is. On one side of the wall the air pressure is lower than on the other. Naturally air will try to equalize through the hole. It will equalize the fastest as is. No pipes. No funnels. Nothing.
Not that the funnel tube that the OP stuck in the intake box will make a difference either way, but saying that sticking a tube is better than no tube absolutely conflicts scientific theory.
Imagine a hypothetic infinitely large wall with no thickness. That's essentially what the air box is. On one side of the wall the air pressure is lower than on the other. Naturally air will try to equalize through the hole. It will equalize the fastest as is. No pipes. No funnels. Nothing.
I didn't get too many A's in college but I did get one in Fluids.
IN THIS CASE, with this tube diameter, at these HP levels (less than 400 CFM). It won't matter if it's a hole, a speaker port or a 2 ft tube, the results should be the same in terms of airflow. I think we agree on this point?
07-13-2010, 12:22 PM
#69
Correct, it won't matter, but there will be a theoretical difference between a simple hole, and hole with tube. Hole with tube being worse for air flow than just a hole. Hole with tube with restrictive mesh grille being much worse than just a hole.
Last edited by DailyDrive; 07-13-2010 at 12:26 PM.
07-13-2010, 12:48 PM
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You can listen to my show online at KCBQ.com, 6: PM Saturdays (SoCal time). We're bonking around Corral Canyon in the morning, so it might be interesting. More interesting. Interestinger.
As for the flow of air through a tube, and through a velocity stack, please refer to the physics of said stack as I did prior to writing this story. The physics are undeniable, but Life and Drive have incorporated both correct and incorrect interpretations into their arguments. i just read the little ditty they have on Wikipedia, which certainly isn't the end-all, but does a good job as a primer. Before anyone else does any more marshmallowing and harrumphing and hole-dingering, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack
As far as I can tell, it's essentially correct. Then reread my story, have a beer, relax and refacts.
STICK
As for the flow of air through a tube, and through a velocity stack, please refer to the physics of said stack as I did prior to writing this story. The physics are undeniable, but Life and Drive have incorporated both correct and incorrect interpretations into their arguments. i just read the little ditty they have on Wikipedia, which certainly isn't the end-all, but does a good job as a primer. Before anyone else does any more marshmallowing and harrumphing and hole-dingering, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack
As far as I can tell, it's essentially correct. Then reread my story, have a beer, relax and refacts.
STICK
07-13-2010, 01:05 PM
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You're certainly correct, a radius will reduce the head loss at the point of entry. But in regards to the tube diameter, it's already oversize for the CFM level it will see. It won't hurt it so much if it gets pinched down an inch.
But while I say this, I already have plans to add a similar tube to the air box on my VW. I guess the nerd in me wants the radius there, even though I know the effect is minimal.
Oh yeah, a mesh grill is hardly restrictive. Most pumping losses occur at major size and direction changes. The filter itself is considered a minimal loss. A mesh grill wouldn't even be noticeable.
But while I say this, I already have plans to add a similar tube to the air box on my VW. I guess the nerd in me wants the radius there, even though I know the effect is minimal.
Oh yeah, a mesh grill is hardly restrictive. Most pumping losses occur at major size and direction changes. The filter itself is considered a minimal loss. A mesh grill wouldn't even be noticeable.
Last edited by LifeOnABoard; 07-13-2010 at 01:08 PM.
07-15-2010, 06:48 PM
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While I appreciate Sharpstick's efforts, I feel compelled to make a couple of observations. I have never seen a velocity stack used in conjunction with an air cleaner. The air cleaner would totally disrupt the venturi effect. Furthermore, you have a large gap between the end of the venturi and the face of the air cleaner. That would also disrupt the venturi effect. I can't tell if you plugged the hole where the stock elbow goes out into the fender cavity but air entering through there would hose up the venturi effect too. Also, I don't know how well the plastic used in a speaker horn would hold up when subjected to under hood temperatures.
That said, I admire your creativity and enthusiasm and hope you continue to explore and try out new ideas.
That said, I admire your creativity and enthusiasm and hope you continue to explore and try out new ideas.
07-16-2010, 07:20 AM
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rockota makes a good point. One could only hope he showed the average and not just a single worst case run for the baseline.
Maj, as dailydrive pointed out, the best tube would be no tube. Meaning no cover, no tube needed. The radius on the end of the tube isn't there to promote a venturi effect. It's simply there to reduce turbulence at the end of the tube. Turbulence will "choke down" the flow rate of fluid entering a column.
But I know, sharpstick claims it's a "velocity stack". Probably not the best term to use.
Maj, as dailydrive pointed out, the best tube would be no tube. Meaning no cover, no tube needed. The radius on the end of the tube isn't there to promote a venturi effect. It's simply there to reduce turbulence at the end of the tube. Turbulence will "choke down" the flow rate of fluid entering a column.
But I know, sharpstick claims it's a "velocity stack". Probably not the best term to use.
07-16-2010, 03:36 PM
#76
Let's look at a proper implementation of a 'velocity stack'. This is a stock 2.4L Toyota engine, 2AZ-FE. There are millions of them out there, and millions more still being made. Camries, Corollas, Highlanders, RAV4s, Scions all have them. So it's a safe bet that the intake is optimum on it, as all those vehicles are leaders in both fuel efficiency and performance.
This particular intake tube is 1.5" in diameter. That's right, the surface area of a 1.5" diameter circle is 1.78 square inches. The surface area of the 4" deckplate is 12.6 square inches. I hope you see just what an overkill a 4" opening right into the airbox already is.
P.S. this particular 2AZ-FE will outrun a supercharged 3.4L to 60mph, and in the 1/4 mile, with this tiny 1.5" intake
This particular intake tube is 1.5" in diameter. That's right, the surface area of a 1.5" diameter circle is 1.78 square inches. The surface area of the 4" deckplate is 12.6 square inches. I hope you see just what an overkill a 4" opening right into the airbox already is.
P.S. this particular 2AZ-FE will outrun a supercharged 3.4L to 60mph, and in the 1/4 mile, with this tiny 1.5" intake
07-16-2010, 10:17 PM
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You people are giving me a headache. Well, 1% of the folks here are giving me 100% of the headache. Everyone else has been really nice. I understand that you don't know me, but I've been doing this stuff for a long time. Just relax and truuuuuust me, and put down the pessimism before you hurt yourself.
Three dyno pulls for the OE airbox, all literally the same curve. Three more were done with the stacked airbox. I don't know how much of a learning curve the OBD2 ECU has on this bus, but with each of the three runs power increased. I posted the middle of the three stacked runs against the middle of the three OE airbox runs so the graph was clear, and Yes, I could have chosen the biggest of the stacked runs and written 9hp in the story.
The stack may be oversized, but I wasn't looking for ideal flow, just the simplest replacement for the deck-plate, which is a four-inch hole with no duct and, apparently no dyno figures. Anyone? There may be more air available than is necessary, but if you think that's to my results' detriment, then go dyno a two-inch stack on your truck and let us know how it turns out. People on these boards practically pray to the freakin' deck-plate mod. Well, here's something with dyno figures to back it up.
Venturi effect is a fluid dynamic, I believe - I don't know the name of the gas-based version of that effect. As for the filter, it's not about getting more air up the charge tube (after the filter), it's about getting as much air as possible to the filter. That's why I'm expecting a nice power step when I put the K&N drop-in in. The 8hp I saw with the stack mod was with a dirty OE filter. The small OE opening in the airbox is going to contribute a little, but now the engine is no longer restricted to only that source - it's got all the air it can ask for. 8hp is the result.
Keep in mind, the OE's don't tune for power - their primary concerns are emissions, noise, smoothness, resonance, and the stuff that will make the car appealing to the buyer and to the smog lords, and the OE airbox and intake arrangement reflects that. Power is a secondary consideration, because that's what WE want, not what the bureaucracy demands prior to letting the car be in a dealership, and not what Everyday Joe wants when he needs to trade in his used Something for a new Something.
Maj gets a point for the underhood heat question - it was the only thing that I could not address short of using it, so I'll let you know if it melts this weekend. Board loses a point because the shape of the inlet for that tube IS important - read up on velocity stacks, please. A proper inlet means more air can get in. No inlet at all means no directed flow, all turbulence. Daily loses two points because he insinuates that my use of the stack is improper despite the evidence already provided and without offering his own, and he uses assumptions and baseless statements to make an argument with no point. The only thing Daily's images prove is that the people responsible for the velocity stack in the picture put it in front of the air filter too...
If anyone provides a deck-plate modded airbox for me, I'll back-to-back 'em, but everyone on this board who's advocated more dyno time gets to donate $10 for the guys at Reese Tuning for the countless dyno runs we'll need to prove that 8hp is 8hp 17 ways from Sunday as y'all please. Put your money where your mouth is, or I'm going to figure y'all are just a dog with a bone. If you want proof, help me not waste the shop's time getting it.
Remember, there's no agenda here, I just thought I'd share where there's 8hp to be had for $3. If you don't want to believe it, don't do it. Everyone else, thanks for all the support, and see you at CO4RJ.
STICK it in your airbox
PS> You can't ignore my evidence unless I get to ignore yours. Remember? Truuuuuuust is good.
Three dyno pulls for the OE airbox, all literally the same curve. Three more were done with the stacked airbox. I don't know how much of a learning curve the OBD2 ECU has on this bus, but with each of the three runs power increased. I posted the middle of the three stacked runs against the middle of the three OE airbox runs so the graph was clear, and Yes, I could have chosen the biggest of the stacked runs and written 9hp in the story.
The stack may be oversized, but I wasn't looking for ideal flow, just the simplest replacement for the deck-plate, which is a four-inch hole with no duct and, apparently no dyno figures. Anyone? There may be more air available than is necessary, but if you think that's to my results' detriment, then go dyno a two-inch stack on your truck and let us know how it turns out. People on these boards practically pray to the freakin' deck-plate mod. Well, here's something with dyno figures to back it up.
Venturi effect is a fluid dynamic, I believe - I don't know the name of the gas-based version of that effect. As for the filter, it's not about getting more air up the charge tube (after the filter), it's about getting as much air as possible to the filter. That's why I'm expecting a nice power step when I put the K&N drop-in in. The 8hp I saw with the stack mod was with a dirty OE filter. The small OE opening in the airbox is going to contribute a little, but now the engine is no longer restricted to only that source - it's got all the air it can ask for. 8hp is the result.
Keep in mind, the OE's don't tune for power - their primary concerns are emissions, noise, smoothness, resonance, and the stuff that will make the car appealing to the buyer and to the smog lords, and the OE airbox and intake arrangement reflects that. Power is a secondary consideration, because that's what WE want, not what the bureaucracy demands prior to letting the car be in a dealership, and not what Everyday Joe wants when he needs to trade in his used Something for a new Something.
Maj gets a point for the underhood heat question - it was the only thing that I could not address short of using it, so I'll let you know if it melts this weekend. Board loses a point because the shape of the inlet for that tube IS important - read up on velocity stacks, please. A proper inlet means more air can get in. No inlet at all means no directed flow, all turbulence. Daily loses two points because he insinuates that my use of the stack is improper despite the evidence already provided and without offering his own, and he uses assumptions and baseless statements to make an argument with no point. The only thing Daily's images prove is that the people responsible for the velocity stack in the picture put it in front of the air filter too...
If anyone provides a deck-plate modded airbox for me, I'll back-to-back 'em, but everyone on this board who's advocated more dyno time gets to donate $10 for the guys at Reese Tuning for the countless dyno runs we'll need to prove that 8hp is 8hp 17 ways from Sunday as y'all please. Put your money where your mouth is, or I'm going to figure y'all are just a dog with a bone. If you want proof, help me not waste the shop's time getting it.
Remember, there's no agenda here, I just thought I'd share where there's 8hp to be had for $3. If you don't want to believe it, don't do it. Everyone else, thanks for all the support, and see you at CO4RJ.
STICK it in your airbox
PS> You can't ignore my evidence unless I get to ignore yours. Remember? Truuuuuuust is good.
07-16-2010, 10:23 PM
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Though I should add, I might not have understood Board's point - he gets his point back if he WAS implying the shape of the end of a stack helps flow.
It's late, and I need to prep for the :AM run. Corral Canyon?
STICK
It's late, and I need to prep for the :AM run. Corral Canyon?
STICK
07-16-2010, 11:17 PM
#79
jeez, some hard cases out there... pretty funny though, I must admit I enjoy reading thread banter....
yeah, so this isn't the biggest HP/Torque gain but like he said, $3... So it's like 10% more efficient than the deckplate standard; good enough I guess. I have the deckplate mod right now, have all the parts and no time for my cone filter. gotta be careful with removing the stock airbox, your under hood temps will negate all or more of your HP gains from the 'bigger' filter without thermal protection.
anyone willing to dyno something is OK in my book; too many folks posting crap claiming all kinds of ponies but no validation; good to at least see someone posting some facts vs. maybe's no matter how slight.
long live the deckplate and the new velocity speaker thing.... hahaha
yeah, so this isn't the biggest HP/Torque gain but like he said, $3... So it's like 10% more efficient than the deckplate standard; good enough I guess. I have the deckplate mod right now, have all the parts and no time for my cone filter. gotta be careful with removing the stock airbox, your under hood temps will negate all or more of your HP gains from the 'bigger' filter without thermal protection.
anyone willing to dyno something is OK in my book; too many folks posting crap claiming all kinds of ponies but no validation; good to at least see someone posting some facts vs. maybe's no matter how slight.
long live the deckplate and the new velocity speaker thing.... hahaha
07-17-2010, 02:08 AM
#80
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just to put your mind at ease SharpStick, the venturi effect IS a fluid dynamic and is also the same term in fuel flow. Because of my military school, I am infinitely familiar with heat transfer and fluid flow. As well as metallurgy, chemicals and physics. (Nuclear mechanic USN subs)
But fuel you have to be careful when it comes to the venturi effect, because on the downsteam side of the venturi pressure is lower and can flash a flammable liquid. If you understand how a refrigeration cycle works then you will understand what I am talking about.
People have to remember bigger is not always better and CFM is just as important if not less important than air velocity. If the air slows down to a crawl your CFM rating is not gonna mean as much. However more air speed at a given CFM makes for more power, especially low-mid rpm.
But fuel you have to be careful when it comes to the venturi effect, because on the downsteam side of the venturi pressure is lower and can flash a flammable liquid. If you understand how a refrigeration cycle works then you will understand what I am talking about.
People have to remember bigger is not always better and CFM is just as important if not less important than air velocity. If the air slows down to a crawl your CFM rating is not gonna mean as much. However more air speed at a given CFM makes for more power, especially low-mid rpm.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 07-17-2010 at 02:17 AM.
