tj884Rdlx

I'm at that point in life where I'm evaluating wtf I'm doing with my life, and if I'm happy enough with it. Too often we do the same thing every day for years, because it's familiar - and not because we like it.

One idea i frequently run through my mind, is starting a business restoring Toyota trucks. Either as a bolt-on service shop for all 4wd vehicles, that also produces restored 'Yota rigs, or as a vehicle restoration shop for classic specialty vehicles, focusing on Toy4x4s

Questions I'd appreciate input on:

1. Anyone here working at a shop like either of these now? How's that going?

2. Anyone familiar with shops that do something like this already? Who?

3. Is this a bad idea? Reasons?

4. Anyone interested in this exact same concept?

I have a lot of experience with what I'm describing, but never actually ran or owned my own auto shop. Not necessarily looking to own a shop either. But the idea of producing/restoring more old Toyotas is something I'm really interested in, and when i do stuff, i do it right. Just wondering if i should commit or lay it to rest. I do have other ideas... But this one haunts me!

Thanks for the feedback, here or PM me!

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Wow, you wrote this post almost word for word as if I was going to write it. I got out of school and followed the money instead of what I like doing which is restoration. I have done several trucks on the side and made a dollar or two off of them when I have free time and wish I could do it full time. I know Slacker does it but his skills are way above what I can do. I can do them in stock and some minor upgrades but not to his level.

Just last week I was at the bone yard and was asking the owner what is the current truck that is like these Toyotas and he did not know. The Toyota trucks get stripped down to bare or he sells them in bad shape in complete units. Any year Toyota truck sells quick.

One thing that scares me is 5 years ago, I could look on Craigslist and find Toyotas on there all day long and now they only come up on a monthly basis. They are getting in worse shape as time goes along to. I wonder what 5 years from now what it is going to be like.

I don't have to much longer to go until I can retire and am hoping I can jump into it then if all goes as planned. It is one big regret I have in life was not following my passion which is the auto world.

I would not give up completely on the idea but maybe you could do it on the side. There will always be someone that will want a truck fixed and trying to find someone that knows these trucks is getting real hard to do anymore.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

When your doing something for fun there is really no pressure.

When the same thing is your only source of income things can get a little frustrating at times.

I know a few welders that work for a local off road shop It is now just like any other welding job prep and weld part A to part B

Take some business classes the hands on work is the simple part.

Most businesses starts say to have cash assets to cover your business and personal bills for at least 12 months

It can take time to get a positive cash flow started .

Have you even looked into the nightmare of insurance taxes and zoning ??

I talk to business people all the time some say they would never do it again others enjoy it.

Then lets talk about all the hours that you really can`t bill for running for parts talking to customers doing the paper work.

Just some of the negatives one does need to think about.

4X4 people can be some of the cheapest around .

I made a decent living in my own welding and fabricating business till the now ex-wife started putting money in her pocket instead of paying bills and ran off with her girl friend.

I for the most had the bills paid put some away for retirement till the above happened but I did put in long hours

Never touched any of my own things unless I had to .

To me rebuilding these Toyota`s is a labor of love not to many people are willing to pay what your true labor costs should be per hour .

All I can say is buy a truck keep track of all your time and parts figure a labor rate what independent shops in your area charge

Calculate the price add 10% would anyone really pay that much??

kawazx636

iTrader: (3)

I'm not here to tell you that your idea is bad or that you shouldn't chase something that makes you happy - trust me, finding something that you love to do and getting paid to do it is a wonderful thing. I'm just going to point out some of the things that I would be concerned about in opening the doors on a Toyota specific shop or any business for that matter.

1. Where do you plan on starting this business? The Toyota demographic really needs to be present and strong where you do business. I would never open shop here (Maryland), but I would seriously consider doing it in the Pacific Northwest. Just look at the people on this forum and where they are from; Washington, Oregon, Northern California. In case you haven't noticed, the Toyota community (Particularly 80's trucks) is very strong in those areas and the vehicles are abundant.
2. That leads me into my next point. Toyotas, particularly older Toyotas, are a very niche market. While there may be only a few out there, Toyota guys don't just like their trucks, THEY LOVE THEM! I'll likely never own a truck of a different make myself. You need to have a lot of potential customers nearby to support your business. Which may not seem that difficult, but you'd be surprised at how quick clientele can dry up.
3. To me, there are three types of Toyota owners, 1) Those who use their trucks as a reliable mode of daily transportation, 2) Those who beat the living crap out of them because the truck can take it and ask for more the next morning and 3) those who restore and/or preserve their trucks (likely most rare). All of those people are different, but they all typically have one thing in common - they don't have a ton of disposable income. I mean, other than reliability and toughness, what is the other reason people drive Toyotas? They're CHEAP! To restore a Toyota, you have to have customers willing to blow obscene amounts of cash on a vehicle that isn't really valuable at all. I'm not by any means wealthy, but I managed to spend over $22,000 on restoring my truck (see picture below) and since I did all of the work myself, there is no labor cost included in that figure. Now you have to think about how many people out there are like me and want to blow that kind of cash (or more) on an old raggedy Toyota Pickup? Not many. Even the wheelers and hardcore off-road guys are typically looking to go as cheap as possible and do a lot of the work on their trucks themselves which would leave you on the short end.
4. PARTS PARTS PARTS! I can't speak for later models, but I know that a lot of parts for the 79-83 Pickups are very scarce and are getting more scarce as time passes. You can't just pick up a Jegs or JC Whitney catalog and order parts; you have to search the web, classifieds and junk yards endlessly until you find what you are looking for. Here are some parts and time it took me to find them for my truck (kept a list of what I needed and when I found it):
   1. Dash pocket: 6+ months.
   2. Chrome sport mirrors: 12 months and counting
   3. Chrome cab vent/louvers: 5 months
   4. 2WD driver side front turn signal 7 months
   5. Fuel sending unit: 8 months
   6. Original bed in good condition: 2 years (ended up going with fiberglass)
   7. Chrome tail light housings: 19 months and counting
   8. Rust free 89-95 Pickup bumper: 3 months
   9. Matching door/ignition keys and cylinders: 17 months and counting
   10. Uncut ashtray: 5 months
   11. Original chrome headlight doors in good condition: 17 months and counting
   12. Good OEM door panels: 2 years (ended up making my own)
   13. Grille emblem in good condition: 7 months
   14. Heater control valve: 10 months and counting
   15. Fender liners: 11 months and counting
   16. The list goes on and on
5. Given the above, you'll want to be in tight and near a good junkyard with LOTS of Toyota parts available. Like Terry said earlier, Toyota parts are becoming more scarce and they don't make old trucks anymore. I have never been to a junkyard and seen a Toyota that hasn't be complete stripped of all the goodies, but then again, I don't have much to pick from in my area. Also notice what is NOT on used car lots - yep, Toyota trucks! Either they are beat all to hell and head to the junkyard and/or crusher or they are bought up and further abused. It's just the nature of the beast - people want them and they want to use them.
6. For the earlier trucks (I speak mostly for 79-83 pickups), there are very few "bolt-ons" available. If you need something done, you're likely going to need to fabricate it. Even beefy off-road or tube bumpers for some reason aren't made by any of the Toyota specialty companies out there like Sky Off-Road, Marlin Crawler, Low Range Off-Road, NW Off-Road, etc. Steel body panels?? Forget about it! Those beat up old panels are going to have to get pulled and filled.
7. Many people also don't realize that restoration companies DO NOT yield a ton of cash. Like I said before, you have to find people that are willing to pay for the restoration and at some point there is a price that becomes "too much" and guess who takes the hit? Your profits. I actually took a Tour of FantomWorks (restoration shop on Velocity channel) last week. I spoke with the owner, Dan Short, for about 30 minutes after the tour and I was shocked to know that he makes very little, if anything, off of his full blown restorations (and absolutely NOTHING off of the TV show). This is rather shocking, especially because he does high end and high quality restorations. He said that the profits he makes to keep the doors open are off of small jobs and repairs. Full blown restorations typically end up costing him money. You'll need to diversify and supplement your income with the small odd jobs and repairs like you are considering.
8. You MUST have RELIABLE and SKILLED people working for you. Just because somebody can weld doesn't mean that they know how to weld. You know the saying, good work is hard to come by... It's even harder to keep. Dan from FantomWorks actually said his biggest problem is keeping good employees. They either leave for seemingly "greener pastures" or they simply aren't reliable. And that is coming from the owner of one of the best restoration shops in the Country.
9. Owning a business isn't all glory all the time. It is a major PITA at times. Dealing with employees, pissed off customers, time frames, finances, taxes, insurance, paperwork, licensing, etc is not easy. I have a full time job along side my home improvement/renovation business. I have ZERO employees, but I still occasionally have to deal with sub contractors and temporary help that I hire for specific jobs. Every time I add a little piece to the business, it becomes more of a headache. I love what I do, but not everybody else has my same passion and attention to detail - that's something you have to deal with because at the end of the day it's your reputation on the line. If I could give you one financial word of advice on starting a business, it would be to take out a business loan and establish a business line of credit. You'll never know exactly what you will need and unless you already have good financial backing, you'll need something and not be able to afford it which will ultimately cost you time and money. And I'm not talking about $10,000-20,000; I'm talking more like $100,000-$200,000. This is particularly important on payment upon delivery jobs. For instance, if I hired you to do the restoration on my truck, I might give you half of the approximate cost up front, but eventually you're going to need the other $11,000+ to finish the restoration and pay your employees before you get the final payment from me. Then what happens when I don't pay? You have to cover the build cost somehow until you get squared up and most of the time simply selling the vehicle isn't an option because almost all restored vehicles are NOT worth the money invested in them to build.
10. Last, and I think this is the most important, YOU MUST LOVE WHAT YOU DO TO MAKE A BUSINESS OUT OF IT! As soon as you start hating your day-to-day routine, it's time to get out. Don't let the business side of your passion completely ruin your passion for Toyotas.

Again, I'm not trying to deter you from chasing a dream, but being a business owner isn't for everybody or everybody would be doing it. I just wanted to open your eyes to what else pops up along the way...plus you asked! LOL Good luck to you if you decide to open up shop and if I'm around your way I'll stop by to scope out the joint!


Here's my resto that I mentioned above:

kawazx636

iTrader: (3)

Truth, Couldn't agree more! I love building engines and making things come to life. I could build engines all day long, 7 days a week, but would never do it for a living. Reason why? I'm good at it, but there is always a chance that I mistakenly do something wrong and that motors blows 20 miles later. Or the owner does something stupid with it and blames it on me. Or my machinist screws something up and causes an engine to blow. Or the owner just isn't satisfied with the HP gains he THOUGHT he would get. Then I'm stuck with a worthless motor and the bill for something that doesn't work. That's why I only build engines for friends and family that understand that, while it is highly unlikely to happen, crap happens. Not to mention the more you do something, the more potential there is for something to go wrong. I think Murphy has something to do with that.

I also forgot to mention liability. You have to ask yourself, How good am I, really? Are you good enough that you can rebuild the knuckles on a solid axle over and over and over again and know FOR SURE that it won't fail at random when your customer is driving down the road at 55mph and something fails in the steering? Or perform a brake job that later fails when a customer is about to stop at a red light. Because that can happen ONCE, a person (or people) can get killed and you have to live with that. That not only weighs heavy on your soul, but also on you wallet and insurance when you have a lawyer knocking on your door. Like I said, with my business, I build stuff. Sure, I could build an addition that falls down or remodel a bathroom that springs a leak, but the chances of severe injury or death as a result of my negligence or lack of ability is extremely minimal. Plus, my work is typically needs to be inspected along the way so I am somewhat safe guarded in that regards. In a world that wants to sue everybody at the smallest fault, it's tough to be a business owner and having good high limit liability insurance is an absolute must.


BTW, sorry for the novels here, just trying to help you out.

4x4 goo roo

Love the idea it's so many peoples dream myn too. One thing you should really think about is expanding what you do not just do Toyotas. I plan to open a fab shop but trying to find a place were there are many off-roaders with plenty of money to put into them. But mainly wanting just to up fit trucks with lift kits and bigger shocks tires and wheels for people who have more money than since and thinks that makes a rig for every terrain. Then they tear things up and you have repeat business hahaha. Don't get me wrong I do stuff right but it's hard to convince people they need to spend $20000 on there rig. So learn from your mistakes right. Im 17 but had a 1968 k30, 1985 k30, jeeps, and currently my 1983 Toyota sr5 4x4. My plan is to get a job at a fab shop cause we live near plenty and know all the owners work there a while and learn a few things I don't already know. But it's not about what you like it's what the buyer likes.

tj884Rdlx

This is some great feedback so far thanks guys.

Some of my first thoughts to what i read above:

When i said bolt-on shop, what i meant was typical of any off road specialty shop, sorta like 4wheelparts, but more like Southern Offroad, a big name in Atlanta yet still a mom n pop size biz. Most customers are new Jeep and Ford owners, maybe some FJs as more come into 2nd owner hands. Theres a shop here called Fortec, they do all Jeep. Mostly new but some retro rigs. Nice sized shop. Very busy. Branch in FL too. Fantastic catalog, i know the guy who produced it for them. It's a critical component for the biz, they market the "family oriented" vibe on every other page.

My auto industry experience is lengthy and diverse, on the business side. I've done auto service advisory, managed auto parts departments, been with mfg dealerships, retail chains, and independent shops. I've also managed corporate facilities and construction projects for companies like Dell and Esurance. I've handled budgets in millions. Not MY money, but i respected it as such. I also have experience with supply chain, sourcing, inventory control, and I'm an insane multitasker.

I've owned over a dozen vehicles and customized most myself. But I'm not a technician. I recognize my strengths AND my limitations. I've worked with service professionals my whole life and understand the Trades. I've done my share of dirty work, as a fire sprinkler systems field tech and a manufacturing machinist. I understand the critical nature of good labor as a successful business component. Like the right tool for every job, the right person as well. The right people for every team too.

The ideas i have to merge a practical business with a passion for Toyotas are a mix of innovation and common sense. Efficiency is probably THE keyword i like to live by. Being smart, keeping things simple, following through.

I'm just unsure if, like suggested above, it's an effort worth committing to, because in the end, success is mandatory. Failure is unacceptable, so the objective must be obtainable. That's what proper recon reveals.

Going public with an idea, brings it into reality, which is why i posted here. And you guys are "my people" with regard to passion for Toyotas. So i appreciate your ability to reflect on a "dream" endeavor like this. And if i were to undertake a business venture with a goal of building small batches of custom restored vehicles, I'd be marketing that passion to new buyers.

DAVE, you know that Toyota guys like us are a niche market. That's NOT the wallet to try to tap into. BUT- HOW many people offer to buy your truck every week? For how much? And how many new toys do they buy a year? Yeah THEY are out there, buying fancy toys every day. That's the market to tap. People with money LOVE "craft brew" anything: beer, booze, and toys too.

There's a way to repackage 80s Toy4x4s cheaply and profitably, while doing my part to save old 'Yotas. Open discussion like this helps me develop plans in my mind.

Thanks!

More feedback welcome!! Bring it!

tj884Rdlx

For 17 you got some good perspective. Keep it up!

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Restoration work for the amount of time you have into one is not a money maker as Dave mentioned. I have done a few restores and do enjoy it and currently doing one now for someone else. I will come out without taking a loss on it but if I did the frame, rebuilt brakes, suspension, and all the other areas to the degree that I do my own personal trucks, there is no way that I could make a living at it.

Fortunately here in the south we have access to 79-95 parts but they will be drying up in the next few years or so. From about the '02 models and older even they are getting old and can be difficult to find parts for. In my opinion anything newer then the '02 is just getting to complicated for the home mechanic. I could not see my self trying to restore a 2015 model in 2035. That is one of the reasons I asked the guy at the salvage yard what is the next Toyota truck out there that seems to have the potential that these trucks have held.

I wonder where Yotatech and other Toyota websites will be 5-10 years from now as trucks from 79-02 models start disappearing off the road. They will soon be the Model A on the road. There will be someone that will want a truck fixed up and trying to find someone who knows these trucks is going to be hard to find in the future but are they willing to travel and pay the cost to get a truck back up and running? Kind of one reason I have been looking at some other trucks to learn about for future projects.

I have a truck that even Toyota cant seem to find the problem. I have had other Toyota gurus to work on it and cant find the problem. I can only imagine what something like that will be for future builders. One thing I like to do is take a Toyota truck and go thru it and basically refresh it and fix several of the minor things that is common on these trucks and someone that is not familiar with them would not know how to go about it. I have had 26 of these trucks and they buy it as is. It takes the risk out that comes with owning a business but still keeps it in the hobby field for me. Doing the same on other models is just as fun.

I have a couple of friend with Toyotas and it still amazes me when two guys that know what they are doing can take a truck in bad shape and what can get done in just a couple of days when they put their mind to it. It goes 10 times faster then just one guy doing it by himself.

tj884Rdlx

Bump. Anyone else have some input on this subject?

I'm not interested in doing rotisserie restorations either. I'm interested in building resto-customs. Basically taking old cars already in decent shape, and turning them back into daily drivers. Not showcars or museum pieces. Fun trucks.

So no I'm not concerned with sourcing some really rare ashtray. I'd provide another solution for any missing Oem bits.

Alternatives to just buying a used jeep for $15k, for example. People seem interested in buying my truck. Now mine has cost a bit because of the learning curve. If i could eliminate the wasted time and money and boil down my own rig's expense, i think i could produce marketable trucks at a reasonable price point.

I'm not panicky about 'rebuilding a knuckle and whether or not it will cause a fatal accident'. That is absurd. There are a billion "parts changers" employed in the US daily who aren't losing sleep over whether some bolt they wrenched that day is sufficiently torqued. And that's what general liability policies are for. This is a basic part of doing business. I would hire ASE techs with sufficient experience, and sleep soundly.

As far as location goes, honestly I'd be web based. I'd source vehicles throughout the south, GA, CA, and AZ mostly. Source parts from the local toyota hoarders, design everything myself, and market through offroad enthusiasts clubs.

This business model exists, but in Jeep territory. I'm wondering if it exists for Toyota at all, anywhere, even in limited scope under some other roof. And how is that working out?

More feedback welcome!

jeremyt

Great thread, this has been kicking around in my head for quite a few years.

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread the pacific NW has a strangely strong market for capable, reliable rigs like you describe setting up. As I start poking my head around im noticing many fab shops and specialty shops are popping up to support the market. I am not sure how well they are doing. Ive read up on some, one seems incredibly overpriced (shop in vancouver wa offers 3.4 swaps for 5-6 thousand dollaz, holy gebus).

The info the ashtray fella was offering i think was to give more color to the fact his problems might expound in the future to cover more basic needs, like ability to source decent interior parts. I think he is obviously well aware his meticulousness with his project is in no way shape or form related to a business approach restoration!

I, like yourself, feel like I have a creative mind, a bit of nose for the business world, and could make a dent, fill a niche, or maybe even fab the best long travel IFS system with any luck. The problem is getting the right amount of real world fab shop experience, or hooking up with the right people that have been living the dream. Sweep the shop, so they say. If you are wanting to jump into the business you got a wealth of free knowledge waiting for you if you can become employed (however temporary) at a toyota/off road fab shop. Sounds like you are more committed to this one idea than i currently am. If i decide that i want to take my new business degree and a toyota fab shop is it....my first step would be to try and find employment in a local shop, basically try to put my fingers closer to the pulse of how the market works and how to make it work maybe better.

MudHippy

So you mean something like...




A.K.A...

BlackPearl808

Hey fellas, howzit?
I was just going down the yotatech rabbit hole and came upon this thread and thought it was a fascinating idea. First off, I want to say I am only at kindergarten level in wrenching and have only owned my truck for a year. But, I can see how folks get really into these vehicles and how one can dream about turning their passion into profit$. Kawazx636 seems to know what he's talking about and after reading his post, i'd be be discouraged as well..
BUT, life is short! they have a saying here: "you never know unless you go!" (surfing slang). follow your dream!
I was thinking do those restorations, but what about a mentoring-type service where you take dudes like me (i think most yota owners are) who like the DIY approach but just need a little guidance, special tools, a space to work on their rig.
For example, i need to repaint my truck but i want to do it right..i might have a grinder but i don't have a 21g compressor or a garage. Apart from the membership fee, I pay a daily rate for this which will still be cheaper than taking it to a shop. you talk me into taking the cab off and doing it right, sanding and prep. while i'm doing this, you're over there restoring a 83 SAS for some weed grower from Northern California. I save a little bit of money because i love doing it and don't mind spending the next 4 days on it. i'm stoked because i gain knowledge from a pro and priceless experience.
I'm probably naive with this idea regarding liability issues or maybe the next guy using the sprayer thought i could've done a better job cleaning..but hey, just a thought.