MudHippy

Maybe they aren't real Fel-Pro gaskets(Chinese knock-offs?). I highly doubt that they could be if the real OE type designs, such as the Rock HGs shown above, are meant to be a direct substitution for the Fel-Pro 9815PT & 9728PT. Meaning the real Fel-Pro HGs should be EXACTLY the same in design to the Rock Gasket HGs, if they truly were Fel-Pro brand products.

Questions:
Why not use "upside down" head gaskets?

Won't they work either way, slipperplate facing the block or facing the head?

What's the deal with that anyway?

Answer:
Due to the present construction/design of the OE type head gaskets for this engine you can actually damage the head's mating surface if you install them with the graphite side facing the head. You will also have limited the slipperplate's "slipping ability" by putting it in contact with a harder surface than it was intended to encounter. Causing greater frictional forces to be applied to it and minimizing the attainable slippage. The intended design of the slipperplate is to allow for "slipping" of the softer aluminum head on the flat steel surface of the slipperplate.The reasoning behind the attempt to allow for such slippage is to prevent the tearing apart of the head gasket material when the head tries to move relative to the block. This occurs when those parts endure the heating and cooling cycles experienced during the engine's operation. Because the thermal expansion and contraction properties are different for steel and aluminum, that causes them to not expand or contract with synchronicity. Meaning they won't expand or contract in the same uniform manner as to provide for little or no movement between them(which is where the head gasket resides)or relative to each other. In previous head gasket designs, without the slipperplate technology, the steel hooks incorporated on the head side of the gasket would dig into or penetrate the softer aluminum of the head's mating surface and inhibit any such movement or slipping of the head relative to the block. Hence, when such movement did occur the head gasket would be forced to either flex to allow for it, or be torn apart by having insufficient properties as to allow for said flexing without the coinciding damage resulting from it. Those hooks interacting with the head's mating surface in such a fashion also causes the developement of small imperfections/defects(little holes/indentations)in the mating surface. As well as the block's mating surface, though less noticeably so due to the relative hardness differences of steel-on-steel vs. steel-on-aluminum contact. These imperfections/defects would need machining to correct or remove them from the head, and possibly the block too depending on their severity, if either was to be re-used. It's therefor a prudent decision to install the slipperplate facing the head and negating the inevitable damage caused to the head's mating surface by not doing so.


PS: Would one of the mods please put this thread back in the 86-95 Trucks & 4Runners Forum where it belongs! It's in no way "general vehicle/non year related" and in every way specific to those years and vehicles.
Thank You!

ceb5

The head gaskets came from Advance Auto parts and had FelPro stamped on them

MudHippy

Wow! You really didn't need to quote my entire post there. Just to set that straight.



Seeing is believing. Being that they came from Advance Auto Parts(the cheapest parts suppliers around)only makes me all the more suspicious as to their authenticity.

FWIW, I hope they don't fail on you prematurely. But...if you thoroughly read and understand that post(and posts #2,#4, and #16 from this thread)and why you shouldn't have installed them, then you'll be rightfully worried that they will soon fail. Sorry...but the truth is the truth. That being that you were misinformed about how the head gaskets should be installed, or rather which head gaskets should be installed. Unless, that is, you think you can logically counter said points against improper head gasket installation(as in proving the slipperplate's design theory to be flawed), then it's only going to be a matter of time. Then BOOM! Head gaskets go bye-bye!

They ALWAYS spell it WITH a hyphen like below.

Not WITHOUT a hyphen like "FelPro".
So that's a dead give-away that they aren't real, IF it was spelled that way. That's called a trademark, and verifies a product as being genuine.

camo31_10.50

i agree...this is NOT a "General Vehicle Related" topic.......this IS SPECIFIC TO '88-'95 TRUCKS AND 4RUNNERS WITH THE 3.0L 3VZ-E V6 MOTOR!!!!

Booosted Supra

Awesome information, I am glad I found this before ordering gaskets, so which is the one to go with? Rock gaskets from post #16 from here http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product122.html or Fel-pro gasket set? the Fel-pro is also 100 dollars more then the rock gaskets

Booosted Supra

I am looking at the rock gaskets right now and I am confused on why the rock gaskets say left or any of them say "left or right" as if your sitting in the car? All the manuals I have ever used while working for Toyota Motor Co. alway refer to L/R while standing in front of the engine, making the "left" gasket right and "right" gasket left or did I miss something

wd21_sr5

It's as if your sitting in the drivers seat, looking out the front. Left bank being the drivers side and right side being the passenger side (North American LHD market trucks)

Booosted Supra

that's what i figured but it's usually determined standing in front of the car. there's a toyota tsb on it in fact, but now that i think about it, that's for newer vehicles

pcpackrat

I'm another victim of upside down head gaskets. They were the ITM variety and the metal plate faced the block. Funny thing is I looked on eBay again today and there are 3 different brands setup the same way. Guess I will be opening the ones I replace them with at the parts store.

MudHippy

I checked again just now and found 9(see post #1). Not brands, but different places selling what appear to be all the same "brand"/made by the same manufacturer. And that's probably not even every single one on there. There are a few on ebay that are correct too(not a lot, but a few).

pcpackrat

So what kind of damage should I be looking for since I only put 20K on these and dont really want to spend another $400 on pressure testing and decking. And I didn't buy these off ebay originally. The shop I had do the engine machine work got them. I asked him to order them since there was a form of trust that he knew what quality brands to order. Of course when I got what he ordered they looked very suspiciously like the ebay kits. But this thread wasn't here in June 09 when I did mine.

MudHippy

I'd say just get some new stock type gaskets and give it another go. I still recommend the Rock Gaskets. But I've never heard anything bad about any head gaskets but these on a 3VZE. I've heard plenty of bad things about all brands of head gaskets, including these, on a 22RE though.

BTW, I've had a guy here say he got these POSs from a Toyota dealership. So it don't surprise me that you got gypped by somebody else. Ya can't trust nobody these days...

pcpackrat

So I got the time to grab some gaskets and have a need to get the 4runner back on the road. Couldn't get Toyota gaskets till tuesday but need to work on it today. So I bought the Fel-Pro set. After all this talk I see that the metal surface is supposed to go to the head. Then why are they made like this:

1988TOYOTA4X4

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php

MudHippy

I see. Well, thanks for showing those pics. The other guy never coughed any up of his. I was under the impression that they were without the Slipperplate™, or it was covered by a coating of some sort, by looking at the pics of them online. They don't show the other side. Now we know FEL-PRO 3VZE HEAD GASKETS really ARE UPSIDE DOWN.

I wouldn't use them personally. Who said they were any good, or bad for that matter, in this thread? I was just saying that I thought he'd bought some that POSSIBLY WERE NOT FEL-PRO, and
These are the Toyota OEM head gaskets part # 11115/11116-65031 made by Ishino. They ARE NOT UPSIDE DOWN...of course.

hamish_18

Sorry for bringing this up again. But to comment on that last pic there. You would be looking at the block side of the head gasket. The water jacket in the front of the "R" side gasket should be in the back.

I am having an overheating issue after doing a rebuild. And now I am scared I put my head gaskets on wrong! I used Fel-Pro from a top end kit from Napa. And if I recall, you can really only put these things on one way. They don't really fit if you put the right one on the left side. Upside down or not.. And does this mean the 5vz-fe(3.4's) could have the same problems?

MudHippy

Block side of the gasket is correct. However, being THE ACTUAL OEM head gasket, ALL is where it should be.
1. Yes, they only go on one way. You can't flip them over and make them fit. The Fel-Pro gaskets are manufactured with the mating surfaces "upside down" when compared to OEM(OEM, and most others, have the Slipperplate™ facing the head, not facing the block, like Fel-Pro and the aforementioned cheap chinese knock-offs do), on purpose...apparently. I guess they think they can improve on the latest OEM design by putting the Slipperplate™ facing towards the block instead. I see no logic in doing so. Does it mean you're screwed? Who knows? Maybe they'll work just fine...maybe they won't. I haven't heard anybody complaining about them, on this motor anyway. But they haven't earned the nickname "Fail-Pro" for nothin'! BTW, the over-heating issue is probably not related to the head gaskets. I'd be checking everything else first(radiator, t-stat, fan clutch, water pump, etc.).

2. The 5VZ-FE did have some head gasket troubles at first, IIRC. Which I think were also solved by a head gasket redesign. I do know this for sure, they use MLS head gaskets. Which are a MUCH stronger head gasket design. And you can get them for a 3VZ-E as well these days. It's rumored there's even a company that will make you some solid copper HGs for the 3VZ-E. OEM is good by me though, or atleast of OEM-type design(like the ones I use made by Rock Gasket).

MudHippy

Hell, maybe I should thank the guy. He might have just revealed a new piece of this puzzle. Though I'll take the credit for putting that piece where it belongs. So...

After noticing the difference in OEM part numbers I did a little investigating. It appears the OEM head gaskets had changed in design/construction again too(at some point). No longer were they made by Ishino, but are now made by Sanwa instead. And these newest designed OEM head gaskets do appear to be "upside down", in comparison(to the older ones)*. Making them the 4th generation design? Or is it really only the 3rd, or maybe the 5th? At least 4 different OEM part numbers anyways. 11116-65020(11/87-01/90), 11116-65030(01/90-03/94), 11116-65031(03/94- ) replaced by 11116-65033.

Anyhow, here's the evidence of that.

11116-65033 made by Sanwa


11115-65033 made by Sanwa


And here's that damning evidence I spoke of earlier. Though it still makes little sense to me. Because it shows what appears to be a Right head gasket with the Slipperplate™/expanded bore grommet on the cylinder head side of it. Yet it tells you it's supposed to be on the cylinder block side(and, obviously, it wouldn't be possible to install it in that orientation if the expanded bore grommet wasn't actually on the block side of the head gasket). What gives? I mean, is it supposed to look like that? Or is it supposed to be as you say it should, regardless of the illustration? Or does the dashed appearance of the outline of the Slipperplate™/expanded bore grommet denote that it's on the opposite side as what's shown?


But even the 93 FSM, which shouldn't even be showing head gaskets with an expanded bore grommet/Slipperplate™ since the TSB came later, shows them with the expanded bore grommet/Slipperplate™ facing the head.


Can you say W T F?

So, maybe I apologize for going off half-cocked...I guess. But you could have done the research yourself too you know. Before coming to preach to me about something I'm already a self-proclaimed expert in, and obviously know more than you about.

* Later in the thread I prove this to be false. Ishino head gaskets don't have a Slipperplate™/expanded bore grommet at all.

clocklaw

Ok, so....here's my story:

White Smoke

15,000 miles on a rebuilt motor....pulled it apart and "rock" stamped on the gaskets. I need to get my surfaces checked and send the heads back (parts under warranty). At least I can go ahead and replace the timing belt while it's torn down when I have time to do it

MudHippy

Well, I'm trying to stay out of it. But this piques my interest...
I see. So you believe it was because of the fact that head gasket was made by Rock then? If so, why is that? Can you explain exactly how/why the head gasket failed. Or how/why it was due to some apparent flaw(s) in the design and/or construction of the head gasket?

Better yet, can you SHOW me what you mean? As in

You're kinda lacking in the sufficient evidence to form a valid opinion department, so far.

For example: Here's mine. OEM head gasket installed at the factory when new in 88, 1st design/type w/o Slipperplate™/expanded bore grommet, @~218,000 miles.

Draw your own conclusions on what happened there.