X-AWDriver

Direct port injection means the air and fuel never are mixed before the cylinder thus those tornadoes,TBSs and such are just spinning air and creating zero hp and this has been proven in independant dyno testing years ago but alot of buyers of these "magic" products feel something partly due to their need to justify the money they just spent.
Anything under 10whp at the crank isn't going to be detectable by the driver and would only be realized on the dyno and maybe a couple hundredths at the strip.

midiwall

HAHAHAH!!!!

(have you seen my latest toy thread? I'm cooking up for some spectacular explosions!)

rdharper

Multi-point fuel injection was used from the 70's through the early 90's by an increasing proportion of Toyota products. This was a licensed version of Bosch's L-Tronic MPFI. This is an injection just upstream of the intake valve. As opposed to Throttle body injection which was a 1/2 step towards MPFI.

Somewhere in the early 90's I believe Lexus switched to Direct Injection (such as my Volvo diesel uses) as that is ideal. I suspect most Toyotas were also switched to Direct Injection somewhere in the 90's... but not sure when.

Right?

rdharper

Hadn't seen it... just read it.

Wow and Egads come to mind, fairly simultaneously.

Texas_Ace

You are totally correct that the mixing of fule and air has nothing to do with it. What it does do is allow the air to move through the intake pipe faster.

A test to show what i am talking about is this: have you ever taken a 2 liter soda bottle and tried poring it out when it is full? If you just turn it upside-down it will come out but if you turn it upside-down and give it a little "spin" it will come out in about half the time. This vortex that is created causes it to drain much faster. Yes the vacuum in the bottle is part of it but it will still work if you cut the bottom of the bottle off and try the same thing just not to the same extent. This is what I was referring to, now on carb engines it does help more.

midiwall

(okay, now I'm about to start busting your chops but, this is the newby forum, so I can't bust too hard!)


The water in the bottle "glugs" and comes out slow 'cause the vacuum (created as the water starts to drain) in the bottle becomes enough that it will imped the water from coming out. The water covers the hole in the neck so that air can't get in. This is the principle behind things like gerbil water bottles and such.

The water comes out faster when you give it "a little spin" because with the water thrown against the sides of the bottle, there's an open passage for air to get through to replace the water that's draining, thus avoiding the vacuum from being created in the first place.

The _marketing angle_ behind the tornado intake thing (and TB spacer plates) is that the swirling air will mix better with the atomized fuel. It has nothing to do with the air moving through the pipe "faster". The air won't move "faster" than the engine is sucking it in... Forcing it into the tube would be the work of a TC or SC (or a leaf blower attached to the intake )


The thought behind an replacement intake tube is to eliminate the volume in the tube taken up by the various silencers. The air doesn't move faster, the path is smoother which reduces vortexes and with less volume, it takes less time for the pressure (vacuum) in the tube to equalize when you stomp on it. That makes for a better throttle response, and has the side effect of increasing intake noise - which some/most people like.

Texas_Ace

first off feel free to tell me i am wrong, as i said i have no problem with being wrong. second:

See my post: "Yes the vacuum in the bottle is part of it but it will still work if you cut the bottom of the bottle off and try the same thing just not to the same extent. This is what I was referring to, now on carb engines it does help more."

I know that the vacume is the biggest reason but it still does work (given not as well) if there is no vacuum.

As i have said i am going with the Deck plate i am just telling ya'll what i have found in the car world. I know personally, i put one in my corolla to see if i could get better MPG. It raised my MPG from 28 city to a little over 29.

Now we can argue over the way an engine breaths till the cows come home....OR we can call a truce that until someone with actuall dyno runs has proof one way or another there is no way to prove one fact or another.

I am not saying you are wrong, i am just saying that from personall experiance i have seen improvement using these in my MPG. Now HP is something i have never tried them on a dyno with.

midiwall

I know... see my post, with the water in the bottle swirling, there's a path for air to get into the bottle to replacing the escaping water thus avoiding the creation of a vacuum, thus the water coming out smoothly.

The reason that the phenomenon still happens with the bottom cut out is 'cause of the water plugging the hole. The vacuum element is removed from the equation but you're still throttling the water from escaping 'cause of the size of the exit point.


See my previous-previous-previous-previous post... There HAVE been dyno runs with the tornado and TB plates on our trucks. I mentioned that along with saying that you're walking a path that others have as well.

Texas_Ace

I did see that but i am a hands on guy, unless i see the data for myself i don't really take it as gospel. NOW i am NOT saying you a wrong, just that i have not seen the data.

Now you have given me a good and set me stright. Thanks for the pointers and i will learn from this lesson like i try to with every mistake. Just keep pointing out my mistakes! I can take it.

Whitey13

Wait a sec...

Texas_Ace

True, we did play with a dyno but not with this exact mod. We did a lot of other stuff but when he quit working there my free "in" went as well, so now that i have to pay i don't spend near as much time there. So a lot of stuff was left undone. I found some of my findings (i made a spread sheet there when we were doing it with basic works/doesn't work). and this was not listed. I thought we had ran this one but it was the CAI i must have been thinking of. (it added 4HP to the civc we were testing it on btw).

Whitey13

Dyno and fuel economy results:
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/produ...afpr052002.htm

Whitey13

Popular Science Magazine, September 2005

Fuel OptiMiser $22: JCWhitney Catalog
Claims: magnetically rearranges fuel molecules making fuel burn more effeciently
Result: No impact on the dyno or MPG

Intake Twister $20: E-bay item
Claims: causes the fuel to 'spread out'. Increasing MPG 5-10mpg and HP by 10%
Result: Actually reduced MPG AND HP by 10%. Could also harm engine if it gets sucked in.

TornadoFuelSaver $70: Tons of posts on here about it
Claims: Creates a tornado effect in intake that is supposed to create a better mix increases MPG by 28% and HP by 4-13.
Result: Actually reduced MPG AND HP by 10%.

Electronic Engine Ionizer Fuel Saver $80:
Claims: Increase gas mileage by 30% electrochemically
Results: Actually reduced HP by about 10% and caught on fire!

Fuel Atomizer 2000 $200:
Claims: Increase of MPG by 300% (not a typo) and increase engine performance and HP
Results: No Impact on either HP or MPG

Aquatune $300:
Claims: Increase of 25% in MPG and 30% in HP
Results: 20% LOWER MPG and a loss of 20 peak HP

Texas_Ace

Now SEE, i knew there was some hard proof somewhere. Although i don't know why when i tried the tornado it increased my MPG. I know because I put 30,000 miles on the car every year so MPG is a BIG deal with the high gas prices. The only thing that could have screwed the results is that when I installed the tornado I also did a full tune up and cleaned all the injectors ect… But I didn’t think that would make the few MPG difference I was seeing. I thought maybe 1 – 2 MPG at best for the tune up and the rest had to be the tornado. Guess I was wrong…

X-AWDriver

MPG results are going to very unless you drove the exact same way every tank which is nearly impossible. My mileage varys about 1-2mpg per tank all the time.

rdharper

If you really want to test this... reverse the mod. Mileage should go up all other things being equal.

ornery

both are pointless, from experience.. save your money.

midiwall

Dyno charts say that's not correct. I have a chart from my truck when it was NA showing +6hp by doing the deckplate; others have similar results.

And if it's pointless, why are you running it?

X-AWDriver

My friend dynoed 8whp on his deckpplate mod and since it's almost a free mod then why not.

Whitey13

It would only make sense to post the chart for everyone to see and put and end to the debate.