20005spd

oh ya by the way the 5vze only had hg probs during the half yr when they first switched from the 3vze. and that is an inncorrect afr 14:7 dude

20005spd

and please explain how the injection of fuel with the 7th injector kit after the throttle body not going to drop intake air temps? its like water injection.

20005spd

bumpin yota, you should buy the d16 honda or w/e it is and put mad speakers and amps so you over load the alternator. just cuz im doggn on your stupid 3.0 dosent mean you havta get all your panties in a bunch.

95RunnerSR5

no sir, he is not critizing you or getting his panties in a wad. as you probablly dont know, he has blown a headgasket and is currently rebuilding his 3vze on the top end. he knows his stuff and is just making sure people aren't getting the wrong info. i wouldnt call the 3.0 stupid either. toyota made a good reliable engine, although not the fastest in the world it will go forever. the hg problems came about when automakers had to quit using asbestos in their products. so the 3.0 was almost a lab rat for the new hg design. sure i would love to have a 3.4 in my truck but toyota wasn't that far in their engineering process back when my truck came off the assembly line. you arguing about these two engines is rather mute, its like comparing the 3.4 to the new 4.0, there isn't much of a comparision from stock. the 3.0's design flaws have been beaten to death and most everyone here knows about them and how they can be fixed. bumpin' is simply trying to help out the new guy by lettin him know the potential the 3vze has, but if you have a problem with that then so be it. have a good day

---incase you didnt know, the 3vze and 5vzfe use the same block..the 5vz is just bored out more

DudeBud

one example http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Super...QQcmdZViewItem
another
http://www.kennebell.net/supercharge...gmCorvette.htm

and the ford gt is using a roots and intercooler same with the new gt-500

coot

Guys,
Thanks for all the info.....I guess Im still up in the air with what set up to go with, but I have to admit, I think having a 3.4 would be a better setup to do this, but if I did do some head work to the 3.0, could that do some justice to keep it in the game?

Coot

95RunnerSR5

yes, the flaw with the 3.0 is the intake and exhaust valves are way undersized. make them bigger and get upgraded cams and you are set!

AH64ID

The huge advantage to the 3.4 is your not the first person to do it. You are simply adding bolt on mods, that have proven results...


Not to create debate, but I have always called those aftercoolers not intercoolers.... But thats terminology from the big diesel world....

DudeBud

i have heard them called that to, but more call them intercoolers...

Bumpin' Yota

The technically correct term is aftercooler since it's after the turbo. Intercooler technically means a heat exchanger between two forced induction devices...but who cares, intercooler is an intercooler is an aftercooler. lol They all just exchange heat out of the compressed airstream.


Go put a GT12 turbo on a 22re. You'll have full boost by 800 rpm just dont expect very good results above 3000 rpm... Why? The turbo is microscopic and being fed a LOT more exhaust gas than the turbine scroll can handle. And with regard to turbos and their operation, what is being burned and how its being burned is irrelevant. What is relevant is the AR hotsize spec, the turbine size and trim, the volume and speed of the ehxuast gas, and to a much lesser extent the compressor wheel and compressor housing's AR. (The latter two are insignificant when compared to the prior.) Point being if you select your hotside AR and trim appropriately you can all but eliminate turbo lag.

Intercooler on a roots supercharger - fair enough, while not an air-to-air intercooler (that 20005spd was referring to) it is an air-to-water cooler which works just as well. (So long as the water doesnt get hot.....lol) Now show me one for a TRD blower! Remember keep it TRD specific as was suggested. Point being there is no intercooler to my knowledge for the TRD blower on the 5vzfe or the 4.0. Pioneering such a charge air cooler for the 5vzfe and trd charger would be rediculously expensive.

While Ive never seen empirical data to confirm this, I suspect those white glowing hot turbo manifolds (that ive seen too) are well over 1500*F, something no daily driven turbocharged vehicle should ever get up to. Hence the importance of an EGT gauge to know when to pull your foot out of the gas.

Again you show what little you know. 14.7:1 is the Stiochiometeric ratio where an engine when in closed loop economy operation. However for best power (Open Loop Operation now,) protection against detonation, and lower EGT's, an AFR of 12.5:1 or LESS is ideal. You wont see any Supra's tuning to run 14.7:1 when they are laying down 400-1200rwhp....or any other type of gasoline combustion engine.

The ONLY similarity between the two is that a liquid is injected. That's it. Fuel does not do anything significant to cool the intake air charge. Keep in mind that at 10psi and above most FI methods heat the air well over 200*F. Why does fuel not do jack didly to remove heat? Two fold! First look at the specific heat of fuel. 0.53 BTU / (LB)(*F), now the specific heat of distilled water. 1.00 BTU / (LB)(*F).

That means for 1 pound of water it will take 1 full BTU to raise it 1*F. It takes only 1/2 that energy to raise gasoline an equivalent temperature. Thus gasoline in a liquid state can only abosrb1/2 the heat of water. But im just scratching the surface. Where WMI REALLY makes the HUGE difference is in the cylinder on the compression stroke. For this we shall look at latent heat of vaporization, that is the amount of heat require to make a certain amount of a liquid vaporize.

For gasoline the heat of vaporization is 0.18MJ/KG
For water the heat of vaporization is 2.26MJ/KG

So when they both go from a liquid to a gas, water will suck up over 12x more energy than the gas will on the compression and power stroke inside of the engine. Result WMI gives far low EGTs and is actually effective in lowering AIT's. Thus fuel does jack didely and if you wnat to go into the thermodynamics and number crunching aspects of it, I will....

Bumpin' Yota

As 95runnerSR5 pointed out, most certainly with the proper mods. I've decided to prove the naysayers wrong...my HG letting go was the perfect time! Im planning on doing similar mods to a pickup with the 3vze, something a full 1800 lbs lighter!

The BIGGEST and SIMPLEST bang for you buck is to ditch all toyota engines and go buy yourself a 5.7L GM Goodwrench small block 260hp and 275tq for 1400 bones brand spanking new for a long block. Headers, intake mani, and carb has you a little over 2500. Nothing is cheaper than the ubiquitous small block to build for power.

If my 3vze grenades after turboing, she's getting a 350 ramjet and a bulletproofed and built 4L60E with a 2500 stall. Or If I can find a wrecked GTO/TA/Camaro for cheap, I'd love tostuff an LS1,2, or 6 in the yota...

Full Boogie

Ummm, yea pretty much what he said, but to put it in simple terms, I don't think 1 more injector is going to cool the charge temp when there are already 6 other injectors a few inches downstream! This is why methonol injection is successfull, you don't see guys buying an AEM injector driver and squirting 16 injectors on a race V8 engine.....well unless they need the fuel. Not to mention on a hot day with a good hour or two of driving around your fuel is very hot, from being circulated through hot rails, and heat generated by the pump itself. I have seen a few modded Camaro's (mainly LT-1's) with hot start problems because the fuel was boiling in the rails, the rails sitting on top the intake along with the conversion van style engine compartment didn't make for happy under hood temps with a 5~600 horse engine. The first time I ran across this it took quite a few hours to figure out what was wrong with the car, to fix it, I set the computer to prime the fuel pump longer with "key-on" and make sure they cranked the engine over the moment the fuel pump quit. Very annoying problem.


To get back on topic, the 3.0L is a good engine, if you want to do some serious mods just like many.....many other engines out there, there are issues that need to be addressed for reliability and performance. Think about it, any engine (factory N/A) you turbocharge, supercharge, nitrous, 7th injectorize......< J/K, is going to need something done to it to help performance or reliability.

And for the love of GOD, don't put a Chevy motor in it!


Later

AH64ID

Yeah, I dont have much experiance in gassers, but have never heard one called a intercooler on a diesel.. but like bumpin said.. .they all cool the air...

20005spd

i never said any thing about an intercooler or an after cooler. i agree that injection of the fuel wil barley drop temps, but the heat an s/c makes is just as insignificant. we can argue this subject forever. but the bottom line like ah64id said. buying a 3.4 putting the trd s/c , 7th injector kit, and other needed changes will give you proven results from simple bolt ons. the 7th injector comes with the ecu . you cant get much easir results. or you can say screw the 7th injector an get urd's s/c fuel upgrade kit which i would rather have then the 7th. bumpin just continue to tell me how a roots s/c generates heat cuz yes it does. and a proper turbo setup should make more power than an s/c. but coot asked for people opioins on here so i shared mine, i wouldnt turbo the 3vze i would go with his other option. since those were the only two options he sopke of. its all about how much money and time you want to spend. let me say it again a turbo setup makes more power than an s/c, but at what cost?

20005spd

let me fix this so u dont jump down my throat, i am reffering to turbo the 3vze when i say at what cost, as compared to the 3.4 s/c.

Bumpin' Yota

You should really do some research before you go making statements like that. Making ignorant statements is why I made the honda comment.

Straight from ATI's site: http://www.procharger.com/intercooled.shtml

"All non-intercooled superchargers operate with an intake manifold temperature in the general range of 115° - 200° above ambient (outside air) temperature at 8 psi. At the same boost level, an Intercooled ProCharger operates at only 28° above ambient!"

115*F will be at zero boost due to heat soak from being in the engine compartment. 200*F will be at full boost at 8psi.

At what cost to turbo the 3vze? Not much really, all told probably about 1400 at most for everything.

20005spd

the reason i say it is insignificant is b/c how many people run the s/c with no problems. probably everyone that runs that dammed thing. i could care less about the heat generated and would s/c my 3.4 in a heart beat. if there was a turbo kit just as widley used as the trd s/c then i would probably turbo it. im done talkn about this neither of us is going to change our minds

AH64ID

I am going to have to disagree... anytime you compress anything you make heat... why would you need to intercool if you didnt make heat? Think about how hot the air is coming out of an aircompressor... its from compression... How do combustion engines iginte? From the heat of compression....

Bumpin' Yota

And when you melt a piston from detonation dont come crying here! Im stating fact. Whether or not you want to acknowledge reality is entirely up to you.

And why dont they do something to cool the intake charge? Becasue for one its a roots type supercharger thus leaving only WMI, and most WMI kits cost an arm and a leg. Good ones that is. Can the get away with it? Sure, just have to back a lot of timing out and add a ton more fuel. This is far from optimal and doesnt leave much room for tuning error. How many supercharged 5vzfe are generating 275hp or more? Id suspect not many without some sort of charge air cooling

AH64ID

http://www.ststurbo.com/tacoma_dyno

There is some good stats on turbo vs s/c.... a turboed 3.4 with 4psi makes 15% more hp and 23% more tq than a trd s/c with 6psi... thats huge...