Stuck at the shop, no start!!
07-11-2012, 08:49 AM
#41
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I was talking to a dude on the jobsite this morning who I usually talk yotas with. He said when the pump went out on his '83 he just put an inline pump in outside the tank. Said it was way easier than getting the bad one out of the tank and it worked great long after that. I don't particularly like the sound of it but it is an interesting idea. It would probably keep pumping gas in case of an accident though.
07-11-2012, 09:00 AM
#42
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Yea a high output inline pump is hard to find and expensive. That is what I would do for an offroad truck that was not a toyota. It is not very hard to fix. I have done it a few times. Usually the bed had to come off anyway. If I had to do it again I would take the bed off. Then you can look over the frame and clean everything. I rust proofed the last one.
07-11-2012, 01:13 PM
#43
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While an inline pump may get you going again, you have to wonder what caused the old one to die; old age, rust, wiring?
When my pump went out I had it pulled and the sock filter was missing, chunks of rust were in intake and the bottom of the pump.
An inline pump may have sucked all that up, so if you go that route I'd add another filter before the pump and make sure there's a good factory filter after the pump and before the injectors.
When my pump went out I had it pulled and the sock filter was missing, chunks of rust were in intake and the bottom of the pump.
An inline pump may have sucked all that up, so if you go that route I'd add another filter before the pump and make sure there's a good factory filter after the pump and before the injectors.
07-11-2012, 02:46 PM
#44
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his old 83 was carbed and would need about 5 psi of fuel pressure. Your truck is EFI and would need 35-40 psi of fuel pressure. Big difference in pressure. And his fuel pump was on the block and he just had a hose and filter in the tank. If you go that route you will have to suck that much pressure thru a possibly non running fuel pump. Seems like not a wise choice for your truck. The old carbed guys would do it for extra pressure when off roading at odd angles so the truck would stay running. i would double check to see if the pump is running as described above and go from there. If it were me i would bite the bullet and change the pump if it was the problem. then i would take the bill to the exhaust shop..... plus labor and 5 % hassle fee
07-11-2012, 02:49 PM
#45
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Yeah, I really don't think I'll get an inline pump, I don't like the idea of leaving my old one on. My truck has 186k on it so I could excuse a fuel pump going due to that. As far as the filter goes, I put a new one on in January or December when I did my head gasket. Got the injectors rebuilt by witch hunter too so I want to keep them clean.
Bone, as far as taking this bill to the shop I'm not holding my breath! I already yelled at the three guys there and just got blank stares. It's like they're zombies or something, I don't think they fully understood why I was upset. If it is the fuel pump, this really was just coincidence too and not their fault.
Bone, as far as taking this bill to the shop I'm not holding my breath! I already yelled at the three guys there and just got blank stares. It's like they're zombies or something, I don't think they fully understood why I was upset. If it is the fuel pump, this really was just coincidence too and not their fault.
07-11-2012, 03:28 PM
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And no, you don't want any sort of external pump. Not because it would keep pumping after an accident (you wouldn't be stupid enough to miswire the pump that way), but because the high-pressure output has to be in solid metal tubes, not some rubber fuel line held together with hose clamps. Be careful who you get your advice from.
07-11-2012, 06:05 PM
#48
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Now I'm a little confused... I hooked my voltmeter up to the harness going to my fuel pump and I get 6.5 volts in the on and start position. When it's "on" I'm reading 6.5v, then I have somebody turn the key to "start", it drops to 5.5v and then jumps up to 6.5v. I thought it was supposed to read 0v at "on"?? Also I realize the voltage may be low but my battery may not be fully charged.
Last edited by thedrewski86; 07-11-2012 at 06:12 PM.
07-11-2012, 07:42 PM
#49
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Get a trickle charger. They are cheap and a good thing to have. I like the automatic one that I have. It tells you the percent of charge it is at and shuts off when it is finished.
07-11-2012, 08:38 PM
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The fuel pump should have 0 volts with the key on and the engine not running.
When you turn the key to crank, you should have 12v; when the engine is running you should have 12v.
When you turn the key to crank, you should have 12v; when the engine is running you should have 12v.
07-11-2012, 08:47 PM
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If you're getting 6.5v, your battery may have been discharged so far it could be damaged.
1. What's your voltage right at the battery? If it's less than, oh, 11.8v your battery is discharged and won't run anything. Hook it up to a charger. (A trickle charger would take a week to charge it; just take it to a garage and have them charge it if you don't want to invest $30 http://www.harborfreight.com/2-6-amp...ger-45005.html)
2. With the key On (not Start), engine not running, you should get 0v on the line to the fuel pump. With the key to Start, you should get battery voltage (about 12-12.6 volts). If you get 6.5 with the key at On, you may have a shorted Circuit Opening Relay (COR).
[oops! abecedarian beat me to it.]
3. Make it easy on yourself; check the voltages at the diagnostic connector. If you don't get 12v at the B+ connector (you won't if the battery is low), you need to fix that first.
1. What's your voltage right at the battery? If it's less than, oh, 11.8v your battery is discharged and won't run anything. Hook it up to a charger. (A trickle charger would take a week to charge it; just take it to a garage and have them charge it if you don't want to invest $30 http://www.harborfreight.com/2-6-amp...ger-45005.html)
2. With the key On (not Start), engine not running, you should get 0v on the line to the fuel pump. With the key to Start, you should get battery voltage (about 12-12.6 volts). If you get 6.5 with the key at On, you may have a shorted Circuit Opening Relay (COR).
[oops! abecedarian beat me to it.]
3. Make it easy on yourself; check the voltages at the diagnostic connector. If you don't get 12v at the B+ connector (you won't if the battery is low), you need to fix that first.
07-11-2012, 09:43 PM
#52
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...shtml#FuelPump
Maybe? Not SURE on yours.. But most of the fuel pump test jump procedures, COR related stuff's is there........ It's helped me one time....
Also, when my rig lost 'gogo' power.... It was due to the COR. Got leakage in the windshield dripping down into the COR and where it plugs in... and it COMPLETELY corroded the thing inside(there are pics on here of how jacked up they can get... and how common the 'h2O leaking into it' phenomenon is). It would turn off and then not start again when hot. Your situation sounds different... But between the MAF/AFM and COR, then the STA in the ignition kicking on the COR.... things can go awry. My fuel pump connector is at the rear/outside of the tank, easily visible from the rear passenger wheel well. Looks like you might have found it in that pic... But you'd need someone turning the key to start and then at least til it wants to turn over to read voltage there(Which you should be able to do right from the Diag. port, I believe?). With it bypassed, at the diagnostic port next to the fusible link box... FP-B+(???..whatever it is in that thread/tutorial of 4crawlers) you can jump that, then just listen for the pump going into action. From the STA kicking on the COR, I believe the AFM/MAF takes over from there. when the Vane opens the Fuel Pump kicks on(at least on mine, with the key on, I can open that vane in the Air Flow Meter and hear the pump kicking on.)
Maybe? Not SURE on yours.. But most of the fuel pump test jump procedures, COR related stuff's is there........ It's helped me one time....
Also, when my rig lost 'gogo' power.... It was due to the COR. Got leakage in the windshield dripping down into the COR and where it plugs in... and it COMPLETELY corroded the thing inside(there are pics on here of how jacked up they can get... and how common the 'h2O leaking into it' phenomenon is). It would turn off and then not start again when hot. Your situation sounds different... But between the MAF/AFM and COR, then the STA in the ignition kicking on the COR.... things can go awry. My fuel pump connector is at the rear/outside of the tank, easily visible from the rear passenger wheel well. Looks like you might have found it in that pic... But you'd need someone turning the key to start and then at least til it wants to turn over to read voltage there(Which you should be able to do right from the Diag. port, I believe?). With it bypassed, at the diagnostic port next to the fusible link box... FP-B+(???..whatever it is in that thread/tutorial of 4crawlers) you can jump that, then just listen for the pump going into action. From the STA kicking on the COR, I believe the AFM/MAF takes over from there. when the Vane opens the Fuel Pump kicks on(at least on mine, with the key on, I can open that vane in the Air Flow Meter and hear the pump kicking on.)
BTW, .... sorry for not getting back to you, Bud.. My bad! Sorry you've having this gremlin-drama... But you'll get it, no doubt! Got lots of good Guru's on the job now.... Gotta love Yotatech.
Not sure if you got in there... But as he mentioned, check the COR... And far as the battery, yep, just take it in to whatever parts store and most I've been in will charge it for ya if it's chargeable. Even tell you with a load tester if it's 'done'. Go eat lunch, come back in an hour, pick it up ready to go or at least find out if you're gonna need a new one.
Like I said, .... I had BAD corrosion in the COR and even behind it.. And you couldn't see ANY looking at it from the front. Worth a check.....
Scope, pretty sure you were saying this... But, I'll ask anyway, haha... 'If the COR is compromised in a specific way.... could it cause an unwanted 'complete circuit' and just drain away the battery?(along with some cranking and cranking sessions)'. Mine, when I'd turn off the truck... even sitting, not running for 20 minutes... I could reach up in there and it was HOT AS HELL! I couldn't even touch it, hardly, it was so hot. Cleaned up that contact in there and put on the new COR and voila.. never had a problem since, 100K miles, at least. AND, that was even with an O'reilly's COR for 32$
haha. Just curious if it CAN cause a drain or even, thereafter, cause the pump to run and run, even without IGN/switched power to it?(If not, maybe something IGN related could heat it up/Fry it?)
07-12-2012, 04:22 AM
#53
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Wow, lot's of good stuff here. I do have a good charger, I just didn't leave it on long enough last night to fully charge it. I wanted to get to testing stuff.
So I'm gonna fully charge the battery first. That's easy - check.
Next, I'm going to check voltage at my Fp and B+ terminals. Good idea, I like it!
If that is not battery voltage, there could be something wrong with the COR. Just so I'm clear this relay is in my engine compartment fuse block w/ my EFI relay? Sorry, I'm not looking at it right now and I can't remember.
So I'm gonna fully charge the battery first. That's easy - check.
Next, I'm going to check voltage at my Fp and B+ terminals. Good idea, I like it!
If that is not battery voltage, there could be something wrong with the COR. Just so I'm clear this relay is in my engine compartment fuse block w/ my EFI relay? Sorry, I'm not looking at it right now and I can't remember.
07-12-2012, 04:26 AM
#54
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From other threads I thought the next step was relay (after fuses which I couldn't find any damaged). Now, the fuel pump relay is directly above the ecu behind the passenger speaker right? I found a 12v relay up there above a 20 amp and 10 amp pair of fuses that said "heater". I've got the thing out and it looks good. I checked continuity on the terminals and got it with one of the two large flat ones on the bottom and the thin middle one on top. I have no idea what that tells me.
07-12-2012, 08:43 AM
#56
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I thought he had a 94 pickup w/ 22RE? If so, this is the correct link:
http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1993/engine/36electron.pdf
That will show you part locations, and this is the real money:
http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1993/engine/28fuelpump.pdf
That's the circuit diagram for the fuel pump subsystem. Now the trouble is there is a lot of stuff in the way that would make it not work. That's why you need to do three checks right off the bat:
1. Check voltage on your BATTERY. Straight across the terminals. Gotta start with step one
2. Check fuel pump voltage at the diagnostic connector. With the key in the ignition position (where your check engine light comes on!) you should read voltage B+ (~12.5V) there on Fp. Remember to measure to ground.
3. Check B+ on the diagnostic connector. Should read the same, ~12.5V.
Now that you know the start and end points are all good, you can start checking voltage across all those different intermediate parts. Start with the fusible links MAIN FL, AM2, the EFI fuse, ALT and AM1. I wouldn't really expect any of those except the EFI fuse to go bad or a bunch of stuff would stop working. Best to check anyway. Then verify your EFI relay has good resistance across the coil (should be in the 10's of ohms IIRC), and when the key is in the IG position verify you have low resistance across the contacts and you get B+ voltage on both sides of the contacts.
When you're dealing with electrical problems you really need to follow the circuit path. You could easily have wiring problems (caused or exaggerated by the welding maybe), bad parts or even both. You can't really SEE the problem a lot of the time so use your multimeter. Trace everything in a very methodical way and you'll find the problem.
http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1993/engine/36electron.pdf
That will show you part locations, and this is the real money:
http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1993/engine/28fuelpump.pdf
That's the circuit diagram for the fuel pump subsystem. Now the trouble is there is a lot of stuff in the way that would make it not work. That's why you need to do three checks right off the bat:
1. Check voltage on your BATTERY. Straight across the terminals. Gotta start with step one
2. Check fuel pump voltage at the diagnostic connector. With the key in the ignition position (where your check engine light comes on!) you should read voltage B+ (~12.5V) there on Fp. Remember to measure to ground.
3. Check B+ on the diagnostic connector. Should read the same, ~12.5V.
Now that you know the start and end points are all good, you can start checking voltage across all those different intermediate parts. Start with the fusible links MAIN FL, AM2, the EFI fuse, ALT and AM1. I wouldn't really expect any of those except the EFI fuse to go bad or a bunch of stuff would stop working. Best to check anyway. Then verify your EFI relay has good resistance across the coil (should be in the 10's of ohms IIRC), and when the key is in the IG position verify you have low resistance across the contacts and you get B+ voltage on both sides of the contacts.
When you're dealing with electrical problems you really need to follow the circuit path. You could easily have wiring problems (caused or exaggerated by the welding maybe), bad parts or even both. You can't really SEE the problem a lot of the time so use your multimeter. Trace everything in a very methodical way and you'll find the problem.
07-16-2012, 07:34 AM
#57
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Hi, just a thought but if you had welding done at a shop and the truck now does not start up after this work was done than it was caused by them. My friend used to work at a place that stretched cars into limos. The welder would always forget to disconnect the battery and would fry the computer. They would have to buy a new one. This could be your problem.
Go through all the steps and see where it leads you.
Go through all the steps and see where it leads you.
07-18-2012, 02:53 PM
#58
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Thread Starter
Alright, I finally have an update. Unfortunately it contains no good news.
A fellow yotatecher came by after work today w/ his identical '94 22RE/5speed p/u so we could do some troubleshooting. We swapped out EFI relays, CORs, (the other two relays in the engine compartment fuse block I can't remember!), even some relay we found in front of the fuse box by the driver's side kick panel: no change. We swapped computers: my truck still wouldn't start. Since there were two people present we made sure again I had spark, he pulled a plug wire while I cranked the engine: spark is good. I went to pull my cold start injector and got sprayed with gas: fuel pressure even seems good!
The only thing that seemed weird was that when I tried to start the truck and he listened/felt for the fuel pump to kick on he couldn't tell if it was kicking on. What the heck is happening? Am I back to simply a blown fuel pump?
I guess I'll go out and check my voltage at the fuel pump harness now that my battery is fully charged. I don't know what else could be wrong. Everything is checking good but the thing won't start!
Oh well, at least we got to do some of this:
A fellow yotatecher came by after work today w/ his identical '94 22RE/5speed p/u so we could do some troubleshooting. We swapped out EFI relays, CORs, (the other two relays in the engine compartment fuse block I can't remember!), even some relay we found in front of the fuse box by the driver's side kick panel: no change. We swapped computers: my truck still wouldn't start. Since there were two people present we made sure again I had spark, he pulled a plug wire while I cranked the engine: spark is good. I went to pull my cold start injector and got sprayed with gas: fuel pressure even seems good!
The only thing that seemed weird was that when I tried to start the truck and he listened/felt for the fuel pump to kick on he couldn't tell if it was kicking on. What the heck is happening? Am I back to simply a blown fuel pump?
I guess I'll go out and check my voltage at the fuel pump harness now that my battery is fully charged. I don't know what else could be wrong. Everything is checking good but the thing won't start!
Oh well, at least we got to do some of this:
07-28-2012, 04:45 AM
#60
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So I've been a bit busy to push on with this but something scope said caught my eye again:
I woke up a bit early for a Sat morning so I ran out and threw my voltmeter on B+ and ground (I think I had that mixed up last time) and I get 0.43v. My battery is around 12.8. Something's wrong! I'm gonna swap COR's again w/ another truck just to be sure. If I'm not getting 12v at B+ what else could it be?
I woke up a bit early for a Sat morning so I ran out and threw my voltmeter on B+ and ground (I think I had that mixed up last time) and I get 0.43v. My battery is around 12.8. Something's wrong! I'm gonna swap COR's again w/ another truck just to be sure. If I'm not getting 12v at B+ what else could it be?
