Trainwreckinseattle

Strange, right on the ROCK box it says it's de-stroked .3 MM which comes out to .012

Only problem with that is and I called to complain about it is when you measure them they are cut far more than that.

It's easy to show. Take a wrist pin and slide both pistons onto the same pin. So they are side X side. It's easy to see the difference then.

When I use a NEW head I use the NPR piston because it actually is decked .012 Which makes it perfect once I take .010 off the block.

Trainwreckinseattle

Now a whole nother ball of wax is when a company de-strokes a piston but changes the dome or dish shape to make up for the change in compression.

It can get real complicated real fast then. (

yotafreakshow

pistons look similar to stock as far as shape/dish goes. as far as I measured, the pistons are .025 destroked compared to stock, and shop machined block deck down .006, that should net me a -.019 deck to piston...not +.035 ... either my block has been super decked in the past or my feeler gauges are out of calibration, lol. say they ground the crank journals all off center by the .010 undersize, that still leaves me with -.009", large ends of rods were maybe worked .001 or .002...barely any material was taken off. I need to find a way to measure the block, I found a spec on LCE's website showing stock blocks at 8.930" deck to centerline of main bores. I guess that's the first step.

OK, just to be redundant and make absolutely sure I'm measuring correctly: piston is at TDC, then I lay my nice straight edge across the piston and use a feeler gauge to measure between the block and straight edge determine how high the top of the piston is above the deck of the block, and it should be no more than +.006 inches above the deck of the block, right?

Trainwreckinseattle

Right.

yotafreakshow

crap.

yotafreakshow

slapped the new untouched timing cover on the block for a deck height comparison, the new Rock cover sits .015 higher than the deck on this block, so I tried that cover on a different 85+ block that I have laying around from a previous rig, and assume has never been machined. (that may have been where I went wrong in the first place)It fit flush with the deck of that block...so maybe I have a block deck that has been machined .015 instead of .006, again assuming that the cover is pretty much dead on stock deck height.

Knowing that would still leave me with .019 to account for. next I will mock up a stock aisin piston on one of these reman'd rods to see where it is in comparison, and compare reman'd rods to some other rods laying around some day when I have a few minutes...maybe the new pistons are wrong... I'm really trying to find out where the culprits are, instead of just throwing a thick (+.020 is all I've seen)gasket at it, which according to the math, wouldn't be enough anyways, or I may have wasted my money machining a block that wasn't worthy......it's always a learning experience

MudHippy

Well, that could be I suppose.

But I'll tell you where I think you went astray.

I recently fully(w/o new oil & water pumps)rebuilt the bottom end, and some of the top end, of my 3VZE. It all went exactly as I'd planned. I never measured a thing on the block except the cylinder bores for out-of-round and taper. Both of those aspects being well within FSM specs even with 226,000+ miles on it, and the mating surfaces were dead-straight though not in brand new condition. Just as would be expected for an engine with that many miles. But nothing that the head gasket material would have any trouble compensating for, so nothing was done to those. And, since I'd just a year or so prior had my heads resurfaced after I finally blew the stock HG out and they hadn't caused any issues when I reinstalled them with new HGs, I didn't bother doing a thing to them for my rebuild either. I have no idea how much was milled off, and I truly don't care. I just replaced the exhaust valves that were shot, and lapped those and the intake valves in. Adjusted their clearance to specs.. Then threw new stock-type HGs(RockGasket)on(as well as replacing all the other gaskets and seals found in the full engine gasket/seal set I purchased), replaced all the crank and rod bearings, and put some new pistons/pins/rings in. I did check the rods for straightness and measured their big ends for their new bearings. All were perfectly true and had absolutely no noticeable wear, so they got new std. size bearings. Since the crankshaft appeared to be in perfect condition(no scoring)too, I didn't waste time worrying about messing with it either. Just replaced all those bearings with std. size, which fit perfectly, and doing so without even having removed the crankshaft from the engine.

She's runnin' good as new or better now. Without any of this "deck height"/"quench" stuff having even been looked into. I trusted the machinist to not remove too much from the heads, and as far as I can tell, he must not have. Never checked on the new (ITM Engine Components) pistons either, they were supposed to be std. size, which was all I needed to know. Nowhere was is stated that they were "de-stroked", which I also have my doubts is such a "common" practice as to be a "given" as some are suggesting. They did, however, say that they were 9.3-1 comp. which was odd, as stock comp. is supposed to be 9.0-1. But I'm still finding that hard to believe too. As I wasn't able to tune it any tighter(Ign.timing and AFM adjustment)with them in there vs. the stock pistons. Which you'd think I could have if they truly were higher comp. pistons. I still haven't bothered to check the compression #'s to see if they're any higher than normal. Again I don't really care, highly doubt they will be, and/or don't have any good reason to on a strong running engine.

Look, I guess what I'm getting at here is this, I happen to find all this talk about "deck height" and "quench" to be very anal. Though I've only tackled one full rebuild entirely on my own, I've helped out on a few others. Never have I seen such scrutiny. And I can't seem to see the real need for it in cases that wouldn't absolutely call for it. It just sounds like puposeful over-complication of what isn't that complicated of a task to me. Meaning for rebuilding an otherwise sound engine to near stock specs.. And in reality, it very much sounds to me like you went a little further toward the deep end of the pool than you can really handle by doing way more than you should have to "simply" rebuild your engine. And, no big suprise, your now struggling to just keep your head out of the water. See the need for all this over-complexity now? I didn't think so.

I do feel for ya on this, trust me I do. But were the lessons learned/being learned really worth the price($$$)paid?

And, actually, I did read through ENGNBLDR's spiel there. Interesting though it was, I didn't see anything that I'm going to keep within my memory for later use when rebuilding a non-racing engine. Maybe if I ever need to blueprint an 18,000 rpm engine out of an F1, I'll look at it again. I mean I respect the guy, but I still take everything he has to say "with a grain of salt". Especially after recently hearing that he told a guy on here to hone his cylinders by "running some emery cloth over them and call it good". Now that sounds like some big time nonsense to me. Seriously? Any specific type/grit? You know it's not all the same right? And just exactly what's wrong with a real cylinder hone now?
But..what do I know?

So, that oughta piss 'em off real good...let's see what they come up with to argue those points...

Trainwreckinseattle

I'm not sure you read the same thread that you responded to.

The guy took his block in to a machine shop to have it REBUILT. Rebuilt means bore, hone, and deck. Your example of your 3.0 was only "re-ring and bearing" That isn't rebuilt. It is also the least likely to have any problems for a lay person, since your not changing or rebuilding anything.

Hes only problem came from NOT checking things enough. In MY SHOP we check everything upon tear down. I would have cought that the block had been decked before.
As to the body of your post, Yes anyone can get lucky without checking a thing. Unfortunatly I see way way too many people do and re-do things because they haven't a clue and think they can rebuild an engine easy squeezy.

What Machine shop do you work at?

Here is a picture of Rock 3.0 pistons. Under the "P950-20" is says .3mm DECKED. There is only one piston style offered by Rock for the 3.0 and the 2.4 truck motors.



The ITM catalog shows two sets. Standard height and DESTOKED. Many companies don't offer the choice and only have destroked.

"85-95 Toyota 22R/22RE Piston SET - 50 THOUSANDS OF AN INCH - w/o RINGS - CR 9:1, 9.3:1 92MM - ORIGINAL STYLE - OEM COMPRESSION HEIGHT PISTON - 1.378", 35MM - PISTONS ARE SOLD IN COMPLETE SETS ONLY - EXC TURBO
BRY2795-020 (BAP)"

"85-95 Toyota 22R/22RE Piston SET - 50 THOUSANDS OF AN INCH - w/o RINGS - CR 9:1, 9.3:1 92MM - REPLACEMENT STYLE - DESTROKED COMPRESSION HEIGHT PISTON - 1.355", 34.42MM, WILL REDUCE DECK HEIGHT .022", .56MM - PISTONS ARE SOLD IN COMPLETE SETS ONLY - EXC TURBO
BRY2795D020 (BAP)"


There is only one listing that I find for ITM 3.0 V-6 pistons.


"BRY6511STD (BAP)

Piston SET - STD - w/o RINGS - CR 9:1, 9.3:1 87.5MM - PISTONS ARE SOLD IN COMPLETE SETS ONLY DUE TO VARIATIONS PER CYLINDERS, WHEN REPLACING, TAKE EXTREME CAUTION TO REPLACE WITH THE EXACT MATCHING REPLACEMENT
(88-95)


To tell you the truth I'm confused why it lists 9:1 AND 9.3:1 for all the listings. I'm guessing California emissions and Federal. Many car manufactures change compression to meet "california" emissions. I'm pretty sure they are saying that these pistons fit all engines. Which is interesting in it's self. So instead of making two different CORRECT pistons they make probably one lower compression pistons which will work in both.

Trainwreckinseattle

Wait a minute. Any machine shop worth using should know that with the 22R engine the block has to be decked with the front cover on. IF they had done that they also should have noticed it had already been decked. Then before the entire process even started you would have been armed with information, and could have made some educated decisions as how to advance from that point.

People trust their local machine shop, and sometimes they let us down

yotafreakshow

i originally brought the timing cover in with me and asked them to deck the block with the cover on, they instead "surfaced" the top of the cover on a belt sander and it was cut a little too low and not flush with the deck, so I asked them to send me a new cover and they sent me one. I live up in the mountains and the shop is 2 hours away so it's tough for me if I have any issues to just "run" this stuff back to them to make it right, so I am in the midst of figuring out what is wrong so it can be made right without driving around for days. I will figure this all out and all will be good. I have done several re-ring/bearing jobs and had good luck with those on a 3vze and a couple 22rs. I decided to do a full rebuild since lots of gas got into the oil via an un-noticed crack in the combustion chamber in the head. It diluted the oil out and spun a rod bearing. I figured all of the wear surfaces had all been compromised so it's getting the full rebuild.
Also, I don't feel like I'm in over my head, like I said before, this is a learning process and there are alot of details to be anal with, and I will prevail. This is why I lurk and search and sometimes chime in on YT, to hear other people's experiences, find solutions to problems, and maybe to help others if I happen to have been there before. Now, here I am asking for opinions and experiences from others who have been here before, so I can get this done without sending a piston through the head cruising up a pass on my way to a bike ride or camping with my wife...guess what she'd say if I crater the engine I spent alot of time and $ on. I appreciate everyone's input and consider it all as part of my process. I could have "just put back together, I bet you'll be fine" like I've heard, but the people that rebuild these things for a living know what works and what doesn't in a case where important constants, like the deck height are changed. I've found that most people don't even check this spec and some get lucky, some don't. Milling a head surface won't put it (valves are a bit closer) any closer to the piston, just a little compression bump by making the combustion chamber smaller and a small affect on valve timing. Deck height can cause piston/head interference too, and that's no good. I like the KISS method whenever it can be employed, but this can be like watchmaking, and dare I say, FUN!

Trainwreck, my pistons are ITM, the box says: ITM No: RY2795, Model: 22RF, Size: 020
no mention of destroke or a "D" in the part # or spec on the box...this might be where things went wrong...no destroke on the new pistons, they never gave me the option. Can you help me verify this info?

xxxtreme22r

the guys in that machine shop are idiots. how long have you been going there. better yet how long have they been there? my machine shop decked the block with the cover on, its the only way to do it right. They were also kind enough to flip the block over and resurface my oil pan gasket side as well. didn't even charge me for that.

What made them think that "surfacing" the cover on a belt sander would yield a flat, even and level surface for a head gasket.?

p.s. did they buy the new cover for you or did you have to pay for another new one because they did it completely wrong and messed up your first one?

yotafreakshow

they sent me a new one, and I need to have it decked now too, unless my file hands are ready for the challenge.
I found the ITM buyers guide, and it looks like my pistons are stock deck height, not destroked .022. They're only like $20 for the set. Guess I have some issues to take up with the shop. In their defense, the bores, crank, etc are well done...I just came in and dropped the stuff off, assuming (there's that evil word again) they would know not to go crazy on the deck, and I asked them to deck with the cover on. I think people are generally oblivious of such details and need firm direction that I failed to give.

xxxtreme22r

if that were me and the decked that block where i had to destroke everything (sounds like they now need to cut the rods. I would be fuming and demanding they find me an undecked 22r block. because they obviously shaved that block out of spec.

MudHippy

I did read THIS thread, but I hadn't bothered to read the other one where he mentioned spinning a rod bearing and having a cracked head. What's it mean to me? Check the crankshaft and rods for bearing surface defects, measure them for excessive wear and excessive twist/bend/run-out. Replace or repair them where called for and repair or replace the head. Nothing too complicated there. Just do exactly what the FSM says to, that's all. Pretty simple really.

I don't work at a machine shop. Though I'm familiar with what goes on in one. And I've used many of the machines found therein. Alot of folks, however, would agree that having rejuvenated my engine in the manner I did, having taken apart nearly the entire engine to replace all the parts that were no longer functioning correctly and some that still were but could/should be replaced as a preventative maintenance measure, can justify being called a rebuild. And, yes, I did hone the cylinders myself. So check that off your list there. The other thing, though only a minor detail, that I did "change" was lapping the valves/valve seats. So do I really qualify as a "lay person"? Not in my book, but whatever, I've been called worse.

I'd have to say my main point was that there's no real need to fix things that aren't broke. There's no real reason to bore or deck anything that is still well within factory specifications for acceptable wear and not having any other substantial defects. That's why such wear/warpage limits are stated quite clearly in the FSM. Toyota, in other words, wouldn't. So why should you?

I said that I checked the things that were important as per what the FSM states and in the manner that it stated to do so. Replacing everything that was no longer in specs, and some things that still were even. And I also examined thoroughly all those that looked as though they were in reasonably good enough shape as to not warrant unnecessary attention or machining to fix flaws that were of no real consequence. Using the factory service manual as my guide. Which mentions NO WHERE in the service specifications things such as deck height or quench as being important aspects with regards to servicing their engines. In fact those terms aren't even found in the FSM PERIOD!

I mean no disrespect by saying this, but I understand the machinists job is to machine things. Not to tell the customer "such and such is still o.k. so we won't touch it". Your job is to say "we'll make 'er as perfect as she was when she came out of the factory". That's how you make your money. To not replace or refurbish every little thing you can means less cash in your pocket.

Trainwreckinseattle

I have hand filed front covers before. .15 is a LOT to hand file and have come out at all flat. IF you are carefull and take your time it can be done.

From what I have found too many machine shops (especially ones not near major cities) are used to old American metal and usually have a slight distane for import motors to begin with. They tend to not see a lot of these 22R's and don't always know off the top of their heads what does or doesn't need to be done and how.

Trainwreckinseattle

Your posts are looong

My personal belief is that way too many people attempt a full rebuild without much knowlege. A full engine rebuild isn't a good place to start ones walk down mechanics lane.

However I agree with you. A person such as yourself who obviously knows enough about engines can dissasemble, check, determine what needs or doens't need to be fixed or replaced and end up with a "reconditioned" engine at a fraction of the cost of rebuilding it or simply purchasing a rebuilt one.

I have "reconditioned" many 22R/22RE's for friends and to put into Toyotas I've purchased to fix and sell. It usually comes in around 200.00 and they last for years if you do it right.

yotafreakshow

At this point, I think the way to deal with this is to order some .022 destroked pistons leaving me about .012 protrusion and use the ITM headgasket, it measures .015 thicker than a Toyota one and will hopefully yield at least an additional .006 over stock once compressed and get things close to where they should be.
I will make some sort of file/sanding block guide so I can maintain a 90 degree angle between the back and top surfaces of the timing cover

pruney81

I'm in Leadville, I'd love to come by and look over your shoulder. I've never rebuilt a 22re but it seems like you know what you're doing.

yotafreakshow

pruney, sent you a pm

yotafreakshow

I wish it wasn't a big shop in Denver, hence my trust level was up...there are alot of 22r's in Colorado, probably the most common vehicles I see are late 80's - early 90's 4wd toyotas next to subarus because of their ability to get anywhere, they last forever, and they are the cheapest way to get around when snow is here 6 months of the year, so I would think they would know better.
of course they never break down. Anyways, pistons are ordered and maybe I'll have a motor next weekend.