Sonofmayhem

is there a way i can use this with efi? or can i build a supercharger for my 22re with some parts from different companies? i really want to get a supercharger, but i may just settle for a turbo... what would i need for a turbo kit, id rather put together my own, for cheaper than lc's kit if its possible.

Thanks

gaboonviper85

ive always like turbos better then supers myself! im sure you could rig up a turbo yourself but pvc pipe definetly wont cut it....that air gets really hot!

turbos also sound nice!

dcg9381

Call LC. They're made by a company called Atkins Rotary.
At one time they had a kit for the EFI truck, but it was almost $3k. They discontinued the kit when they found that using it in a blow-through style resulted in overheating the rotors. I dunno if they've fixed it or rereleased it.

I've owned one with my own EFI setup (draw through). Does it make a difference? Hell yes. It's primarily a torque thing. It's a very old design, boosts right off idle though, not much top end to it. Dyno results were impressive on torque, like up 40% - HP, not as much. Also, they're inefficient and do hit you in terms of gas mileage.

What we need to see is an Eaton supercharger, very efficient, bolted to a toyota manifold. I've only seen one or two.. There's a project going on over at celica-gts.com for something similiar, we'll see if it works out.

Atkins is a good company and I had excellent product support. PM me directly if you have questions.

Like the advice above, I went turbo. A properly sized turbo can be very lag free, better fuel economy, much better power, and cheaper than the LC supercharger kit, and honestly there is more aftermarket support.

Roughly what you need:
1) Manfold $300-$550
2) Turbo $125 (used t-bird) to $1200 for ball bearing top of the line.
3) Some sort of fuel management above 3-4psi.
4) Reasonable expectations.. Otherwise lower your compression and you can push more power.

Sonofmayhem

Really? so could i get the lc manifold, fuel management and a garrett turbo i could run a turbo, i want lower boost, i read on lc's site that if you run low boost you can keep the stock injectors and what not. what kind of fittings and junk do i need, what do i need to do to my comp? im gonna check out 22returbo.net


THANKS\\

keep the info coming.

dcg9381

i wouldn't buy the LC manifold. It's over priced and gets poor reviews (web search "Jeff Mosk 22rte"). There are a few options:
Buy a ghetto ebay manifold made of pipe steel. Seem to sell for 250-300. Crude, but they work.
Buy a tubular "header type" manifold - fullboogie.net sells them, $400-$550 depending on wastegate setup and material.
You could buy my unused turbonetics manifold from me for $325 - It retails at about twice that.
My current manifold was made by steedspeed.com. It's unique and puts up with a ton of abuse. It's actually a CNC deal, very solid and runs $400-$500.

Get a small, like .42/.48 Garrett.. Don't be fooled by import clone turbos. If they're new and cheap, ask questions. I'd buy a used Garrett over the import knock off trash any day.

I've heard that LC says you can run low boost on a stock EFI system and motor.. You'll be running premium fuel and very mild boost. If it works, it works... I'd get an A/F gauge just to be sure, but they're the experts... If that IS the case, then you can go turbo for under $1k. Just dont expect a big gain at 3-4 psi.. If you go above that without fuel management, you'll learn an expensive lesson. I don't know if this is true or not - so you need to do the homework here.

For fuel management, LC sells SDS which runs around $1500.
Another option is FAST, which is a better sysem in my opinion.. I think it costs more than SDS.
I sorta support the megasquirt solution - fully configured and pre wired for your ride, it's around $500, but I'm backlogged and behind on putting them together for people.

Don't buy a piggyback. I've never seen one that works well with a 22RE.

There are other patches/bandaids to fuel management also - hobbs switches, rising rate fuel pressure regulators and 5th injectors...


Fittings, with an oil cooled turbo you need an oil feed which can be taken from the passenger side block behind the motor mount - there is a plug.
Oil drain, you need to have a drain put in your block or in the pan. It's safter to put it in the pan if you don't know what you're doing.
General plumbing - expect to need a new "header" which is called a down pipe once you have a turbo. Any exhaust shop can make it.
Intake plumbing can usually be put together at home with some mandrel bends and silicone couplers.

gaboonviper85

a stock 22r should be able to take 7psi shouldnt it...i read it somewhere just dont remember where.

Bill

Due to burning up my turbo build budget in other areas I'm going with the cheap manifold route: T3 adapter to the stock manifold.

I got a buddy to make me an adapter, very nice piece. Especially if using a small turbo the intake hole on the turbo is about the same size as the hole on the stock manifold(albiet a different shape), so it's a good fit. Cost me about $50 and a case of really good beer.

mochester

get the header from doug thorely

mine was like 270 shipped

Sonofmayhem

cool, if i can get this debt settled im gonna get a setup built.

chimmike

I like turbos because the torque they produce and hp is usually a lot stronger than any roots style blower. However, it also depends on what range in the rev band you usually work. If you've got 4.88's or higher, I'd definitely go turbo because you're working within the band of a smaller, stock-size turbo. If you're working more below 2500rpm, a roots style blower might help you more.

dcg9381

Not without race fuel or timing control.

gaboonviper85

oh my bad

Bill

A Tri-Y, but not a turbo header.

chimmike

uh, what turbo? Are you tellin me the 22r can't handle 7psi from something like a T25? Just by decreasing base timing a degree and running 2 step colder plugs?

Bill

The size of the turbo doesn't matter, boost is boost. The parts would stand up to 7psi yes, but it won't run well...actually it might not run.

Stock they have in the 9.5:1 CR range. You'd get serious detonation under boost at that CR with this motor. Darin, you said you hit detonation, and you're at 8.5:1, right? To reduce detonation you need higher octane fuel, and the ability to control where you spark.

chimmike

are you joking? Size of turbo doesn't matter? So you're telling me 7psi from a T25 is the same as 7psi from a T3/t4?

You're sorely mistaken, buddy.

What's the CFM flow rating for a T25 at 7psi, and what's the CFM flow rating for a T3/T4 at 7psi? Do you think the CFM flow (which is what is important) is the same? Hell no.

A larger turbo flows a larger volume of air than a smaller one at the same boost setting. PSI obviously increases volume as well.................but if you're telling me that motor can't handle 7psi from a T25, then that is one helluva weak motor regardless.

Seriously, if you think boost is boost and size doesn't matter, you need to pick up Maximum Boost by Corky Bell and educate yourself on basic turbo knowledge.

or www.howstuffworks.com even.

chimmike

3 ways to fight that:

1) 1 or two step colder plugs, gapped closer. Preferably iridium or copper. Plats don't like boost much.
2) Reduce base ignition timing at least 1-3 degrees below stock. Again, this fights detonation.
3) Run 93 octane gas. That should be more than sufficient, as it burns MUCH slower than 87.

I was running 9psi of boost on a VQ35DE running a 60-1 turbo without ANY changes to base ignition timing, and using 93 octane gas. Ran it with an 11-12:1 afr under boost, no leaner at any time, and 12-12.5:1 at cruise, using an intercooler. Compression on that motor: 10.3:1.

I ran 10psi on a 1.8L nissan POS sentra motor, which I guarantee far weaker than the 22r, which was also 9.5psi, without any reduction in base timing, ran 93 octane and no problems.

Obviously I ran upgraded injectors and fuel pumps in the above setups, but regardless, detonation can be easily controlled. If you're running into detonation on 5psi on a small turbo, there's something whack about your ignition setup, or the gas you're using is 10+ points less than what it advertises.

dcg9381

Size of a turbo does matter, of course.
7psi from a t25 may or may not be just as efficient as a t3/t4, depends on where you are in terms of airflow and how that works with compressor efficiency. There is some variation here.. However you can't say that a t25 will always make less power than a t3/t4, the t25 may actually be more efficient at lower boost and cfm levels. The motor can only consume so much air.





Turbos can flow a range of CFM at a given pressure ratio (pressure level). Again, a T25 could flow just as much air as a t3/t4 at low pressure, low air volume... And it might be a much better match for a given motor and potentially produce more power.

Here's the map of a t3/t04b. At a pressure ratio of 2, about 14.7 psi, it can flow between 22.5-47 lbs/min.. It largely depends on how much air the motor can consume:
http://22returbo.net/compressormaps/med/to4b-h3.jpg

Here's the map of a GT28R, at a pressure ratio of 2, it flows between 10 and 33 lbs/min:
http://22returbo.net/compressormaps/...8rcompress.gif

I'll bet the GT28R makes more power on a 22RE that's under 200hp. That could be peak power. It's almost certainly area under the HP/torque curve.


Probably a symantical issue here, but a larger turbo can flow a larger volume of air than a smaller one at the same boost setting . It can only flow as much air as your engine can use, however... Otherwise pressure starts to climb while air volume doesn't increase as much.

The question is can a 22R/22RE handle 7psi at whatever volume it takes to produce 7psi? As mentioned above, the stock internals certainly can handle it. I'll bet it detonates all over the place however... The effective compression ratio is going to be too high.

It might handle it if you dropped the timing back (within EGT limits, don't ask me how I know) or if you ran fuel that's less volitile.. The hearsay that I've been exposed to says no more than 3-4 psi on a stock 22RE ECU, otherwise you're going to detonate and go lean...

Rick at Fullboogie.net has one that runs 170hp and above 10psi, but he's not on the stock ECU. I haven't asked what his EGTs are at and above those levels, they may be a one-shot power level that has to be turned down for the street... But he's the tuning master... We're discussing a one off "bolt on" turbo setup here. You certainly can do more with timing and fuel control.


My experience indicated detonation with 8.5:1 CR at about 9psi.
For reference the stock 22RTE is about 7.5-7.8:1 and runs a peak of 7-8psi.
I'm sure I'll be able to exceed that with additional tuning.. We're working on engine internals right now. New turbo (smaller) and more updates in a week or two. I was using the t3/t04b referenced above...

Bill

Ok, let me ammend my statement, because yes different turbos do flow different: Boost is boost when measured at the TB. Yes 7psi comign out of a T25 is a whole lot less air than a turbo used on a Cummins. But if you measure 7psi at the TB it's the same amount of air regardless of the turbo pushing it.

As for the CR, it motor to motor. There are muscle cars out there running high single digit and low double digit boost on 10.5:1 motors. Does that mean you can do it on any motor? No, of course not. I've got a buddy that "strapped" a turbo onto his accord for a while, with no other modifications. It ran, and ran pretty well(for a while).

dcg9381

Yes, modern cars are starting to get some mad compression numbers. Head design, timing map, and ignition system efficiency has improved a bunch.

I have heard from a few people that have melted stock 22re motors via turbos. It's hard not to want to push just a little more boost.
If you're going to bolt it on, run a boost gauge, and EGT gauge, and hopefully a wideband...

Oh yea... email me the dyno when you're done!