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intake manifold modification

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Old 11-30-2010, 08:13 AM
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This is probably the only time im gonna say i wish i had a 3.0 lol. What length runners did you end up going with?
Old 11-30-2010, 08:45 AM
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well, i figure there is about 3 inches of play under the hood, between the top of the intake manifold and the bottom of the hood(this concluded by myself when i saw the GNX-turboed 3.0 runner by a member on this site, or another, cant remember exactly...) he had a 3 inch intake tube ran over the top of the intake to the throttle body, though i dont recall if he had a body lift or not. so, without a body lift, i assume i could stretch them up to 3 inches longer.... the model i drew up NOW has legs of 2 inches(i just realized i had too long of legs on there) and the flat mounting plates are of half inch each. i know this is thicker than necessary to mount a gasket to, but it also winds up being something needing to bolt together as well. i have included a picture of the REVISED initial design, which entails a total intake runner stretch of 3 inches....

swimmerboy, was there a specific design reason for the spacer on the engine you built, or was this just a simple prototype as well?
Attached Thumbnails intake manifold modification-intake-spacer-2.jpg  
Old 11-30-2010, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fiddleplayer247
well, i figure there is about 3 inches of play under the hood, between the top of the intake manifold and the bottom of the hood(this concluded by myself when i saw the GNX-turboed 3.0 runner by a member on this site, or another, cant remember exactly...) he had a 3 inch intake tube ran over the top of the intake to the throttle body, though i dont recall if he had a body lift or not. so, without a body lift, i assume i could stretch them up to 3 inches longer.... the model i drew up NOW has legs of 2 inches(i just realized i had too long of legs on there) and the flat mounting plates are of half inch each. i know this is thicker than necessary to mount a gasket to, but it also winds up being something needing to bolt together as well. i have included a picture of the REVISED initial design, which entails a total intake runner stretch of 3 inches....

swimmerboy, was there a specific design reason for the spacer on the engine you built, or was this just a simple prototype as well?
Ok that sounds good. You're not leaving the mounting pieces square are you? I would carve them out to match the runners on the upper intake manifold, so it's all flush. Now if you want to get the most power out of your design, you could port the factory upper intake manifold to its max size and make your runners size to match the ported size of the intake manifold runners. Just my .02

Now the design reasoning for my spacer was to keep the upper intake manifold cooler. And the cooler it stayed the more horsepower could be made (remember i had a turbo'd setup). it was a prototype at first and eventually i sold the idea to SharkRacing and i believe they have mass produced it now. It was basically the same concept as yours except smaller because my upper intake manifold was aftermarket and already had longer runners so there was no need for longer runners like your design has.

Here is the link to the design that i used on SharkRacing's site.
http://sharkracing.com/acecart/bin/s...cate=011003000
Old 11-30-2010, 09:07 AM
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if i were to port the upper intake and entails, will this not lower the intake velocity? that would help the top end but possibly weaken low end, correct?
Old 11-30-2010, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by fiddleplayer247
if i were to port the upper intake and entails, will this not lower the intake velocity? that would help the top end but possibly weaken low end, correct?
What do you mean lower intake velocity? And i know on my old car it helped flatten out the torque curve and give me more useable lower power. So im gonna go with a no, it won't sacrifice low end. And not to mention these 2 engines are very similar. The Toyota is a 3.0 V6 and mine was a Hyundai 2.7 V6.
Old 11-30-2010, 09:17 AM
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do you think on your old car, if you had made the spacer even longer, could you have gotten greater results?

i know this is filling the tread up fast, but this info can be used for my project, as well for anyone elses. ....
Old 11-30-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by fiddleplayer247
do you think on your old car, if you had made the spacer even longer, could you have gotten greater results?

i know this is filling the tread up fast, but this info can be used for my project, as well for anyone elses. ....
No because the upper intake manifold already had extended runners which had been flow-tested for max power. Remember my design wasn't to add more power like yours, but it was to keep the manifold cool. Although your design is great, it will act like an aftermarket upper intake manifold. You've prompted me to start designing one for the 22-re.
Old 11-30-2010, 09:30 AM
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oh dont be doing that! now you're pulling income from a poor college student!!!

Old 11-30-2010, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by fiddleplayer247
oh dont be doing that! now you're pulling income from a poor college student!!!

haha you cover the 3.0 and ill stick with the 22-RE
Old 11-30-2010, 09:37 AM
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off to class! anyone else, feel free to chime in!
Old 11-30-2010, 09:50 AM
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Im not so sure about your percepted 3 inches of room. I know that when you do a 3.4 swap on one of these, you have to cut the hood or add a body lift...Im not sure how much taller the 3.4 is than the 3.0. Im just givin you some food for thought.
Old 11-30-2010, 09:57 AM
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Here, read this.

Is Bigger Better?

The plenum in a stock manifold is typically smaller to keep air velocity high. Likewise, the cross-section of the runners is also small to keep the air moving at maximum speed into the cylinder ports. This provides good idle quality and throttle response, but also limits how much air the manifold can flow at higher engine speeds. Eventually the speed is reached at which the engine will try to pull in more air than the stock intake manifold can flow. That’s when the stock intake manifold needs to be upgraded to a performance manifold with a larger plenum and larger runners.

One manifold manufacturer said for maximum high rpm performance, the plenum volume should be equal to or greater than the engine’s displacement in cubic inches – especially on a stroker motor.
In recent years, the popularity of stroker kits combined with the availability of larger and larger displacement aftermarket engine blocks has created a whole new generation of monster-sized motors. We’re now seeing smallblock Chevys with displacements over 427 cubic inches, and big block Chevys with displacements well over 600 cubic inches.

Consequently, performance intake manifolds that were designed for small block and big block motors of a decade ago may not have enough plenum area and runner volume to keep up with today’s extreme engines. So intake manifold manufacturers have been redesigning their products to better accommodate the increased breathing requirements of today’s larger displacement stroker motors. The latest “improved” manifolds can often generate an additional 20, 30 or even 50 or more horsepower on many of these larger displacement engines compared to what was possible using an older manifold design.

Jim Davis of Professional Products said his company’s engineers redesigned their original “Hurricane” manifold for smallblock Chevys to handle today’s larger displacements. The new “Super Hurricane” manifold has a larger plenum and runners for engines over 400 cubic inches. Davis also said the company has come out with a new “Hurricane Plus” manifold for smallblock Chevy engines under 400 cubic inches that has better flow characteristics and delivers 10 to 15 more horsepower over the older design.

Runner Length

Runner length also affects the rpm range where an engine makes the most power. Longer runner lengths have a “ram” effect that helps keep the air moving forward as the intake valves open and shut. When an intake valve opens, there is a short lag before the cylinder starts to pull air through the runner into the combustion chamber. A longer runner helps maintain the inertia of the air column so it will fill the cylinder faster.

When the intake valve slams shuts, the momentum of the incoming air hits a roadblock, and a pressure wave rushes backwards through the intake port and runner. A longer intake runner tends to keep the air moving in the right direction in spite of the reversionary pressure pulse that is trying to push it backwards.

Shorter runners, on the other hand, usually flow better at higher engine rpm. Reducing the length of the runners may allow the engine to make more power at the top end, but the trade-off may be a loss of power and torque at lower speeds. When choosing an intake manifold, therefore, the runner length should match the engine rpm range where the engine is built to make the most power. If you are building a low rpm torque motor, you want an intake manifold with longer high velocity runners. On the other hand, if you are building a high revving motor, you will probably want a manifold with shorter runners or runners with a larger cross-sectional area to flow more air.

Runner Curves and Manifold Heat

Another important factor that influences airflow and how much torque and power an engine can make is the angle and curvature of the intake runners. In an engine with a carburetor, the intake manifold should not have any sharp turns because it can cause the heavier droplets of fuel to separate from the air/fuel mixture. This is not as critical in fuel injected engines because only air flows through the manifold. The fuel is sprayed directly into the intake ports by the injectors that are mounted in the intake manifold just above the ports.

On carbureted engines, the intake manifold is “wet” and contains fuel droplets. When a cold engine is first started, additional heat is needed to help vaporize the fuel. An exhaust crossover passage is often incorporated into the stock manifold to redirect exhaust under the plenum so the manifold will warm up quickly. On a performance engine, you don’t want heat in the intake manifold because heat decreases air density and power. So many aftermarket performance manifolds eliminate the heat crossover passage. Some manifolds raise the intake plenum and runners away from the engine so air can flow under the manifold to help keep it cool.

A fuel injected engine also does not require any heat in the intake manifold to aid fuel vaporization because the manifold is “dry” (no fuel vapor). This means the incoming air can be cooler and denser to produce more power (which is another advantage of fuel injection in addition to better cold starting). This also means the intake manifold can be made of lightweight plastic since the manifold does not have to withstand heat like a metal intake manifold on a carbureted engine.

Plastic intake manifolds are common on many late model engines, and one of the advantages of using plastic (besides saving weight) is that it can be cast to optimize airflow. Terry Wilson of Wilson Manifolds unveiled a new plastic intake manifold for the smallblock Chevy at the recent Performance Racing Industry trade show. He said the manifold weighs only 7 lbs, runs much cooler than an aluminum manifold, and is cast to flow as well as CNC ported aluminum manifold. The manifold will be in production this spring, and will retail for around $800, which Wilson says is about half the cost of what a CNC ported race-ready aluminum intake manifold would cost.

One of the disadvantages of a plastic manifold, however, is the risk of breakage if the engine backfires - which can be a danger when an engine is fitted with a nitrous oxide system. Plastic manifolds also require an entirely different casting process, so that’s why most aftermarket intake manifolds continue to make their products out of cast aluminum, including manifolds for late model fuel injected engines that have stock manifolds made of plastic. They say an aluminum casting provides strength, can be polished, plated or coated, and can be easily ported and modified.

Runner Design

The angle at which the runners in the intake manifold line up with the ports in the cylinder head should be as straight and smooth as possible to optimize airflow. That’s why “high-rise” intake manifolds produce more power than “low-rise” manifolds. The runners in a high-rise manifold have a straighter shot at the ports in the cylinder head. The incoming air does not have to change direction as much, so it flows more easily into the intake port and combustion chamber. And if the ports in the intake manifold are carefully matched to those in the cylinder heads, there will be no sharp edges or misalignment to disrupt airflow.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...d_to_wild.aspx

Last edited by MudHippy; 11-30-2010 at 10:11 AM.
Old 11-30-2010, 03:24 PM
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so the longer runners might actually help the intake in the lower end, if i keep them possibly close to the same diameters, or even make them a little smaller.... what you guys think? sound like some possible gains?
Old 11-30-2010, 04:04 PM
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Yeah, maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But, what about high-end power? Worth the sacrifice?

I found the article above this morning, and it seems to contradict everything I found before on Toyota's VLIM(ACIS/T-VIS)approach. And now I'm really confused.

I don't know who to believe anymore. I'm just glad I did some more research, and didn't recommend anything that might not work for what you want.

See...I told you I didn't really now what I was talking about. Now I'm almost positive I don't.
Old 11-30-2010, 05:43 PM
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hey believe you me, im not sure i knwo what im talking about here. i just know that since its fairly simple to do(minus the complicated research) this could be a feasable way to spend a hundred or so bucks(plus or minus labor,shipping,etc) and net a possible, decent number of horses....

but, going back to my original thought, like the old hot rodders used to do, using velocity stacks and long tube intakes were said to help.....

not sure if itll work for an efi "dry-runner" setup, but it might be worth the shot of a little time and a little dough wasted.

anyone wanna donate to the cause?
Old 11-30-2010, 05:46 PM
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on a side note....

@swimmerboy,

what is your current profession? i saw that you used to swim for penn state IIRC, just curious as to what you majored in and are doing now.
Old 12-01-2010, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by fiddleplayer247
on a side note....

@swimmerboy,

what is your current profession? i saw that you used to swim for penn state IIRC, just curious as to what you majored in and are doing now.
Ugh as depressing as this is, I had a full ride to Penn State, i was a 3x All-American swimmer. In early November of last year i ended up tearing both rotator cuffs within a week of eachother. They let me finish the year out then they dropped my scholarship because i couldn't compete. I'm currently working 3 jobs to try to make enough money to go back to school. i work for FedEx, Stage 1 (muscle car performance shop) and Panas Auto Body. My major at school was Communications but when i go back to school (hopefully next fall) i'm going to go for auto tech at the local community college (because that's the only school i can really afford). So yeah that's what i do.
Old 12-01-2010, 06:34 AM
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wow. sounds like a rough ride... i though with sports, that if you get injured while you played for them, they had to carry through paying for your school until you finished your degree? i am probably wrong in thinking this though. haha
Old 12-01-2010, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by fiddleplayer247
wow. sounds like a rough ride... i though with sports, that if you get injured while you played for them, they had to carry through paying for your school until you finished your degree? i am probably wrong in thinking this though. haha
Yeah it's rough lol and i thought so too...
Old 12-01-2010, 07:48 AM
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is there no legal way you could pursue that? assuming you still want the degree you started pursuing when you started going there? seems like i know someone that broke his foot in the first season of football(freshman year) and from what i understand he is still going to school there......


granted his folks are filthy riche, they might be fronting for his pathetic butt....(im not very fond of him haha)


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