xxxtreme22r

thanks Gnarly4X would like to see the updated "dyno" results with the new lash. Doubt it will change much though.

bend

iTrader: (1)

Gnarly if I ever find a truck to buy, I plan on rebuilding the 22re with either a 268 or 261 cam and EB's performance head. I want to do a before and after dyno. How much does a dyno normally cost?

engnbldr

>>>*You guys are fun!...*LOL**...Some of you have been talking to my son Tod I see, thinking it's me? He is only 40 something, not dry behind the ears yet....

*I see why nobody can get through on the phone, either....

I am almost never at the shop anymore since I have a brother with two steel legs that I sorta need to keep an eye on or he will wander off or do something.....So I am way down at our Toledo facility most of the time.

*My son Tod has different opinions than I do, he loves that 261C ever since he stuck one in a turbocharged Celica he did for a guy who worked for us.. I like my 268C but then I am 66 years old and the guy going 55 miles per hour you sail by. *Cept when I am in my Corvette....

But here is what I intended when I designed these things.

261C/Crawler. Mix of offroad, mild chattery idle, full powerband. A bit sporty?

268C/Torkr. Smoother, Best for a driver that doesn't see high rpm's, highway cruising, shorter powerband, towing, hauling a load of Cows.

270/430 H/O. Mild chatter idle, bit of a toy, 2500 RPM and up. Circle trackers like this one when they have "rules" requiring "stock." Best for lighter rigs, 2WD.

*All three were tested on a real world dyno, using a BONE STOCK workhorse powerplant. They were within about 3-5 ponies of each other, they just run differently.

That is the key here to the different opinions and results, we used a BONE STOCK baseline. *Mess with the exhaust, intake, valve lash settings, fuel mix, adjust the AFM (Oh, why not?...*LOL**) or bolt on something that someone made???

Yep, out the window goes the baseline. Part of the fun of these little engines is that they are very sensitive to changes.

Plus no matter what I do or anybody else does, it's still going to be a little engine with a big job to do. I get a kick out of it all and it's still fun, too.

*Well, off to my bowling league, got me a nice 186 average, how is THAT for a 66 year old coot?....*EB

engnbldr

>>>*I always hang my balls way out there, then they seem to come right back....*LOL**.. Heck, if you want to see something surprising, watch my little 110 pound wife wind up a 16 pound bowling ball! She has bowled with her mother since she was four, her Mom was a semi-pro with over 200 average.

*Engine? It's all pretty basic. I would assemble and measure the deck, clip the top of the block to make sure the piston is at top dead center or as close as I can get it. (Maybe even let her stick out around .005" to .006" if I want to push her some and get the extra 2 ponies that can make.) I would never port, but I would consider port matching to one inch in on both the intake and exhaust, we see that area off quite a bit sometimes. (We see that area off a LOT sometimes, the manifolds are all castings, too.).

Anyone trying that, be very careful , you really don't want to enlarge much in the middle of things because that kills velocity that takes more physical energy to get going again..

I would run the 268C since I am old and slow...(heehee).. so I like to cruise at a steady speed and it is the smoothest and easiest to tune to. The other two are longer duration and different lobe shapes, a few degrees off on valve timing and the engine notices it, so clipping the head and block can really have an effect.

. Now my son LOVES the 261C but he also likes to use an engine's full powerband and it is "supposed" to do that.

I would run the stock exhaust manifold because it is quieter and very well designed. Then 2" primary all the way to the muffler, and 2 1/4" on exit all the way back, straight as I can get it. 2 1/4" is OK but I will get about 2-3 more free ponies on the ground my way at low speeds. No real difference in midrange, and directional flow starts to gain again on the top end.

I would not bother to mess with the intake at all, there is almost nothing to gain there expect top end, and that only assumes the fuel mix is correct..


Simple, inexpensive and easy, and she jumps from around 116 H/P net to better than 130 pretty easy. We did actually hit 143 H/P in testing but the crew was very good that was tuning, that kinda matters..Way better at it than me, anyway, back then I didn't know what a TPS was....*LOL**....Part of the trick to nice snappy response and good economy is to tease everything and over do nothing......*EB

xxxtreme22r

Kinda off topic but you touched on it a little, but what do you think of the offy intakes single/dual plane matched to a weber 32/36? Almost regretting not getting the 38 though. looking for more lower end while in higher gears. ie 4th and 5th manual trans. you sold me the 268 with my rebuild kit if that matters.

Robert m

iTrader: (2)

wow, thats not even close to what i was told when i ordered my 268. i was told it was for mid to higher rpm and would kick in at 2500 and pull all the way to redline. the 261 was for crawling and lower rpm and would die off noticeably towards the end, the 270 was the race cam and wouldnt be good in DD at all.

pettybilt

Well thanks Ted for clearing some things up for me. I'm amazed how much yota guys seem like to to help out, lol. After what you described i think i'll be ordering the 261 soon, sounds more of what my truck needs. I really need to get this thing motivated!

Thanks guys for all the input

olharleyman

It's all relative to the tire size and gearing as well , I went with the 268 after e-mailing ted back and forth for a couple days and explained the tires size and gearing to him along with the other mods to the rebuild and got the same answers you got but understood more because I had all the gearing/tire size info along with the block mods in the mix as well.

I run mine at 75 all day long and got it as high as 90 @3600 in 5th on 35 x 12.5 with 4" front 5" rear sas 4runner yet it still works great off road and down in the low range from off idle and right around 3k you can feel it get a second wind with the cam and still get 16mpg with the first 3500 miles on the motor so the point I am trying to make is

Tire size + gearing + block boring + head + valve size + header + exhaust + how you use the truck = cam needed and how it affects your truck and where in the rpm range it does it

Also as ted said they used a stock set up as a base line for their results and it all changes with every little tweak and air flow adjustment as well as timing adjustment made to the motor. JUST SAYIN LOL

Larryb

I recently rebuilt my 22RE a few miles back. I used Teds RV head with OS valves and 268 cam. My 85 4runner is mostly stock with the exception of 31" tires with stock 4.10 gearing. I am very happy with the head/cam combination. I am currently running the stock exhaust system and will be upgrading that in the near future with teds exhaust recommendation. Ted is a great guy and his customer service is nothing short of outstanding, dont hesitate to buy through him.

dfarr67

Ahhh the break in was bs I did the job at -25deg and didn't know what to set the lash at until warmed up- now I know to set it at -001 of whatever you need. Just changed it again to 008in, 011ex as it was still a little noisy at idle. CC part # 87-119-4 grind T20 252S-110.

engnbldr

>>>*This almost sounds like you got ahold of a helper my son Tod had hired for awhile. He was answering the phones for a few months while the crew were working, we realized he liked to talk after awhile. If not then I can't explain it. I did design all of these myself, so I know what they are supposed to react like, still, that is all based on bone stock.

Of course, about 3 degrees or so valve timing retard and the 268C can act that way if the exhaust is freed up. Remember that freeing up the exhaust moves the power peak up the RPM scale, and also tends to lean things out slightly.

I haven't been at the shop full time myself now for about 3 years, I have to be here at our ranch because of my brother who is handicapped, no choice there at all. Left up to my choice, I would be building engines. But we run back and forth at least every other week, sometimes every week depending on what is going on.

The confusion comes in because of the duration figures. One would think a smaller duration number would mean a mellower cam profile but that isn't always the case. Total duration is not even a measurable figure, it is a mathematical theoretical number produced from many other factors. The duration number that matters is the @.050" reading. The part that is hard to understand is that it is possible to create an infinite number of completely different cam designs, using the exact same durational figures.

All a camshaft does is open and close the valves, it's how much and when that has the effects....*EB

flyingbrass

I'm ignorant about this topic, but it seems to me that how other factors (cam timing, quench, exhaust setup, ignition timing and advance curve, etc.) stack up matter more overall than the particular cam used.

Looking at Gnarly's numbers, there really isn't very much difference among cams. A little here or there, but nothing significant, all else being equal. The "all else" appears to matter more.

xxxtreme22r

Numbers might be close, but I believe the real gain is felt by seat of the pants. Also remember torque numbers even if its 3 ft-lb you will "feel". I was surprised when playing with my timing on such a little motor that 3-5 degrees in ignition timing can be felt. Still wish I had the money to try the 261 and weber 38 though.

dixiemuddtoy

very cool, i have the same combination getting ready to go into my truck. Glad to know its a potent combination; I've got a more free-flowing air intake and plan on getting an NWOR or DT tri-y header to go along with it. Few questions for you:

Can you estimate what you feel is the power difference over stock?
Do you have any other mods outside of the head / cam?
What size tires and gear combination are you running with that MPG estimation?

My truck currently gets about 15-18 in town and about the same on the highway..its kind of rough lol. I'm sure my 33" tires and 4.56 gears have nothing to do with that...lol

Thanks!