Lions Back Carnage - 2004 Taco
12-13-2006, 04:41 AM
#41
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12-13-2006, 05:44 AM
#42
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Owning up to the responsibility of one's mistakes is but half the equation in defining a man's character. Accepting and enduring the consequences when the dust settles and folks have stopped their accolades is the true test of a man's character. True character always goes unseen and unnoticed by the masses IMO.
I wish the young man well and hope he learns an invaluable lesson at the cheap price of a truck rather than the priceless value of a human life.
I wish the young man well and hope he learns an invaluable lesson at the cheap price of a truck rather than the priceless value of a human life.
12-13-2006, 06:01 AM
#43
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the thing is, i refuse to believe only the 2 involved in the crash were drinking, and i am sure it was not the first time. so i am hoping this translates into a lesson for everyone.
12-13-2006, 08:09 AM
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Harsh or not, seems people are determined to have their poison on the trail, and will defend drinking (injesting) the alcohol despite the tragic examples that are in front of their face. This action ultimatly affects us all by showing the world bad examples and then resulting in trail closures.....because people just have to have a beer on the trail, road or highway.
12-13-2006, 09:29 AM
#47
This is true.
I have a disclaimer posted here that if I am on a YT sponsered event and booze is consumed, they either poor it out or get out.
I will turn someone in, as I do not want the liability to come back on my name or the forum in general.
Even as I type this, you can bet the greenies are rejoicing over what happened on that run.
It goes into their bag of tricks to get more trails shut down.
I have a disclaimer posted here that if I am on a YT sponsered event and booze is consumed, they either poor it out or get out.
I will turn someone in, as I do not want the liability to come back on my name or the forum in general.
Even as I type this, you can bet the greenies are rejoicing over what happened on that run.
It goes into their bag of tricks to get more trails shut down.
12-13-2006, 11:15 AM
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Thanks for that.
12-13-2006, 12:06 PM
#49
Thank you, what site have you been at?
Hey, someone has to take a stand on this.
A quick scenerio.
Guy mmets up with everyone else at their favorite meeting place.
For me that would be the Enumclaw Safeway where we meet when we go to Greenwater.
He and passenger kick back a few brewskis on the way to the air down spot.
A few others notice the open beer bottles on the floor of cab, and smell alcohol on breath.
They say nothing, and all goes on.
Later on the guy(s) may be pounding more down while driving on the trail.
I can assur eyou I would not want my rig to be on the trail with them.
If first party had spoken up and mentioned the booze, then it can be handled before the run takes off.
If nothing is said and there is an accident, first party who spotted bottles in rig should feel darn guilty.
I am all for people for having fun, but there is a time and palce to consume, and one of them is not during a run.
Everyone is put in danger, and may not realize it until to late.
Hey, someone has to take a stand on this.
A quick scenerio.
Guy mmets up with everyone else at their favorite meeting place.
For me that would be the Enumclaw Safeway where we meet when we go to Greenwater.
He and passenger kick back a few brewskis on the way to the air down spot.
A few others notice the open beer bottles on the floor of cab, and smell alcohol on breath.
They say nothing, and all goes on.
Later on the guy(s) may be pounding more down while driving on the trail.
I can assur eyou I would not want my rig to be on the trail with them.
If first party had spoken up and mentioned the booze, then it can be handled before the run takes off.
If nothing is said and there is an accident, first party who spotted bottles in rig should feel darn guilty.
I am all for people for having fun, but there is a time and palce to consume, and one of them is not during a run.
Everyone is put in danger, and may not realize it until to late.
12-13-2006, 01:03 PM
#51
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It is hard when you have no indication. However I DID know that they were drinking, and while Troy and I talked about it - neither of us said anything. I guess it is hard to stand up to the Norcal VP who is member number 8 on TTORA. But lesson learned.
So what we grapple with is how do you "enforce" the no drinking rule?? I like Corey's point of pour it our or we leave you. But this is problematic in that if they pour it out great - but as I pointed out above... I had NO IDEA that Mike was Drunk in the first place. Then if you leave someone, esp if they are a newbie they could end up getting more hurt. It goes against the wheeling alone addage. Even if they knew they should not be drinking in the first place.
Have any of you encourtered this on the trail and what did you do?
Lastly.. Lee, the reason we did not say anything was because we agreed it was for Mike to address. We were not trying to be decieftul in any way but we needed to respect that he needed to be the one to tell what happened.
Last edited by Lysmachia; 12-13-2006 at 01:04 PM.
12-13-2006, 01:17 PM
#52
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It's amazing how polarizing the issue of alcohol is.
The below thread on TTORA starts off with Mike stating that he is stepping down from his current leadership position of NorCal TTORA Pres. The rest of the thread goes into a downward spiral of people sticking up for Mike and what he has done for the TTORA community, and those who are saying this was just flat out wrong, and he got what he deserved. Pretty amazing read.
While I'm sure Mike has done a superb job of managing the NorCal TTORA group, propelling the TTORA board and assisting any person on the trail; these actions are not enough to justify a beer on the trail. Mike's representing position of NorCal TTORA Pres should have been enforcing the no-drinking rules, as opposed to breaking them. This is an unfortunate instance of misjudgment on Mike's part. Speculation of this incident would beg the question, how many times has this happened in the past, if any? I'm NOT saying that Mike drinks on each run, that's absurd. What I am saying is that many, many people consume alcohol on runs, and should take this lesson to heart. If this was a one time incident, this goes to show, it only takes one time to really mess up yourself or someone else's life. Mike is taking corrective actions against himself by stepping down from the position of NorCal TTORA Pres; taking care of the other party in getting them another vehicle, and paying for their medical. This takes backbone and character, something that most people who cause an accident due to their own alcohol consumption would run and hide from.
Do Mike's corrective actions justify the ability to consume more alcohol at a later date on the trail? I would think not, considering what has been said in support of Mike, I would think that Mike has learned a valuable lesson here. I would think that he would take a much stronger stance against drinking on the trail, being that he probably didn't consider himself that buzzed up when it happened (nobody really does when they are in the moment). Maybe he wasn't that impaired, but judgment was certainly affected at one point; the point where he drove off the side of Lions Back.
Some would argue that one beer is nothing, and as it has been argued before, it may be nothing for you, but it may be more than enough for another person to get them started. This incident should be an example to all who feel the need to consume beer before the trail, at lunch on the trail, or after the trail and still driving home to your destination. Please save it for when you stop driving, sitting around a campfire telling "bigger rock" stories. We may be the best drivers in the world, but that doesn't mean you won't get hit by somebody who runs a stop sign on your way back to camp. I'm sure the officer would just love to see some beer cans roll out of your rig when you talk to the officer about some guy running a stop sign. Having a drink on the trail is just not worth it.
http://www.ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53191
edit: somehow, all apostrophes were replaced with this: ?€™, corrected the issue.
The below thread on TTORA starts off with Mike stating that he is stepping down from his current leadership position of NorCal TTORA Pres. The rest of the thread goes into a downward spiral of people sticking up for Mike and what he has done for the TTORA community, and those who are saying this was just flat out wrong, and he got what he deserved. Pretty amazing read.
While I'm sure Mike has done a superb job of managing the NorCal TTORA group, propelling the TTORA board and assisting any person on the trail; these actions are not enough to justify a beer on the trail. Mike's representing position of NorCal TTORA Pres should have been enforcing the no-drinking rules, as opposed to breaking them. This is an unfortunate instance of misjudgment on Mike's part. Speculation of this incident would beg the question, how many times has this happened in the past, if any? I'm NOT saying that Mike drinks on each run, that's absurd. What I am saying is that many, many people consume alcohol on runs, and should take this lesson to heart. If this was a one time incident, this goes to show, it only takes one time to really mess up yourself or someone else's life. Mike is taking corrective actions against himself by stepping down from the position of NorCal TTORA Pres; taking care of the other party in getting them another vehicle, and paying for their medical. This takes backbone and character, something that most people who cause an accident due to their own alcohol consumption would run and hide from.
Do Mike's corrective actions justify the ability to consume more alcohol at a later date on the trail? I would think not, considering what has been said in support of Mike, I would think that Mike has learned a valuable lesson here. I would think that he would take a much stronger stance against drinking on the trail, being that he probably didn't consider himself that buzzed up when it happened (nobody really does when they are in the moment). Maybe he wasn't that impaired, but judgment was certainly affected at one point; the point where he drove off the side of Lions Back.
Some would argue that one beer is nothing, and as it has been argued before, it may be nothing for you, but it may be more than enough for another person to get them started. This incident should be an example to all who feel the need to consume beer before the trail, at lunch on the trail, or after the trail and still driving home to your destination. Please save it for when you stop driving, sitting around a campfire telling "bigger rock" stories. We may be the best drivers in the world, but that doesn't mean you won't get hit by somebody who runs a stop sign on your way back to camp. I'm sure the officer would just love to see some beer cans roll out of your rig when you talk to the officer about some guy running a stop sign. Having a drink on the trail is just not worth it.
http://www.ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53191
edit: somehow, all apostrophes were replaced with this: ?€™, corrected the issue.
Last edited by SteveO; 12-15-2006 at 05:45 AM.
12-13-2006, 01:24 PM
#53
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Thank you, what site have you been at?
Hey, someone has to take a stand on this.
A quick scenerio.
Guy mmets up with everyone else at their favorite meeting place.
For me that would be the Enumclaw Safeway where we meet when we go to Greenwater.
He and passenger kick back a few brewskis on the way to the air down spot.
A few others notice the open beer bottles on the floor of cab, and smell alcohol on breath.
They say nothing, and all goes on.
Later on the guy(s) may be pounding more down while driving on the trail.
I can assur eyou I would not want my rig to be on the trail with them.
If first party had spoken up and mentioned the booze, then it can be handled before the run takes off.
If nothing is said and there is an accident, first party who spotted bottles in rig should feel darn guilty.
I am all for people for having fun, but there is a time and palce to consume, and one of them is not during a run.
Everyone is put in danger, and may not realize it until to late.
Hey, someone has to take a stand on this.
A quick scenerio.
Guy mmets up with everyone else at their favorite meeting place.
For me that would be the Enumclaw Safeway where we meet when we go to Greenwater.
He and passenger kick back a few brewskis on the way to the air down spot.
A few others notice the open beer bottles on the floor of cab, and smell alcohol on breath.
They say nothing, and all goes on.
Later on the guy(s) may be pounding more down while driving on the trail.
I can assur eyou I would not want my rig to be on the trail with them.
If first party had spoken up and mentioned the booze, then it can be handled before the run takes off.
If nothing is said and there is an accident, first party who spotted bottles in rig should feel darn guilty.
I am all for people for having fun, but there is a time and palce to consume, and one of them is not during a run.
Everyone is put in danger, and may not realize it until to late.
Things edited out by robinhood
I want my money back, as this type of behavior is not what I signed up for, nor endorse. Good luck with that, right?
Just a thank you for providing an alternative for me to gather and talk with folks who are more on my level and in-line with my feelings on this matter.
Last edited by Robinhood150; 12-13-2006 at 03:39 PM.
12-13-2006, 03:41 PM
#54
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Just a note of caution for everybody...this is a touchy subject with a lot of heated emotions flying around right now. Keep in mind we have a policy of no board wars and no personal attacks. Please feel free to express your thoughts, but do it constructively and choose your words well.
12-13-2006, 07:56 PM
#56
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Lee it seemed you were hard on some of us who were there when it happened on the other thread, and I just want to set the record straight (from my point of view). First of all there was only one other person I know of in our group who may have been drinking. Neither Troy ir I were or the other 3 people. Secondly, I had no idea Mike was drunk. NO CLUE. I was with him on top of lions back and he walked, talked and reacted totally sober.
It is hard when you have no indication. However I DID know that they were drinking, and while Troy and I talked about it - neither of us said anything. I guess it is hard to stand up to the Norcal VP who is member number 8 on TTORA. But lesson learned.
So what we grapple with is how do you "enforce" the no drinking rule?? I like Corey's point of pour it our or we leave you. But this is problematic in that if they pour it out great - but as I pointed out above... I had NO IDEA that Mike was Drunk in the first place. Then if you leave someone, esp if they are a newbie they could end up getting more hurt. It goes against the wheeling alone addage. Even if they knew they should not be drinking in the first place.
Have any of you encourtered this on the trail and what did you do?
Lastly.. Lee, the reason we did not say anything was because we agreed it was for Mike to address. We were not trying to be decieftul in any way but we needed to respect that he needed to be the one to tell what happened.
It is hard when you have no indication. However I DID know that they were drinking, and while Troy and I talked about it - neither of us said anything. I guess it is hard to stand up to the Norcal VP who is member number 8 on TTORA. But lesson learned.
So what we grapple with is how do you "enforce" the no drinking rule?? I like Corey's point of pour it our or we leave you. But this is problematic in that if they pour it out great - but as I pointed out above... I had NO IDEA that Mike was Drunk in the first place. Then if you leave someone, esp if they are a newbie they could end up getting more hurt. It goes against the wheeling alone addage. Even if they knew they should not be drinking in the first place.
Have any of you encourtered this on the trail and what did you do?
Lastly.. Lee, the reason we did not say anything was because we agreed it was for Mike to address. We were not trying to be decieftul in any way but we needed to respect that he needed to be the one to tell what happened.
i wasnt saying everyone was drinking, but my assumption is if the prez is drinking then it is likely other members in that club do too. not just that one day, but any trail ride done by ttora norcal.
how do i enforce it? by making it clear it is not ok, but confronting it when it occurs, and taking it away from the offender. i would like to think at that point it is my job to educate them and demonstrate for them with my actions that drinking is left for the camp at the end of the trail. if someone is a repeat offender and does not heed the advice and rules i have laid down, then they will not be welcome to wheel with me and my club again.
that seems pretty simple to me. if someone wants help they will accept it, if they do not, they will not. it is not up to me to force someone into rehab because they crack a beer open with ignorance, but rather to educate and help them enjoy the benefits of wheeling SAFELY.
i understand why you didnt say anything.
12-14-2006, 11:49 AM
#57
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I had a huge wordy reply here but decided to make it short.
I would estimate 40-60% of the people I wheel with including friends and members from yotatech and ttora have cracked open a drink on the trail at one time or another. I don't think it's club specific so I hope no one is quick to point fingers soley at TTORA.
IMO it's a problem that I don't see changing anytime soon. For those of you that are concerned, chose who you wheel with carefully.
I would estimate 40-60% of the people I wheel with including friends and members from yotatech and ttora have cracked open a drink on the trail at one time or another. I don't think it's club specific so I hope no one is quick to point fingers soley at TTORA.
IMO it's a problem that I don't see changing anytime soon. For those of you that are concerned, chose who you wheel with carefully.
Last edited by yellowspeedracer; 12-14-2006 at 11:50 AM.
12-14-2006, 04:47 PM
#60
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I dunno guys, I would say for me it has been 30% and I have wheeled with a lot of groups her ein Colorado... though let it be stated NEVER have I seen alchohol or drugs on a Yotatech run. I have on Colorado 4x4, Isuzu, TTORA and other runs...
