second skin rep

First how they work:

vibration dampers work by adding weight to the panels. nothing else. Commonly called mass loaders.
They are not designed to stop road noise, or any other type of air borne sound, though they do help, it is not thier purpose.
They work by adding weight to a vibrating panel which makes it harder for the panel to vibrate at the same frequecie with equal power/energy. usually the resonant frequecy is brough down to inaudible levels. this is not to say that they can not flex and vibrate still. with more power at different frequncies they sure will. (but not at the same frequcies with equal power)

so basicly the products that weight the most win. HOWEVER!!!!! there must be a solid bond between the metal and the adhesive, if there is not a storng bond, then all that added weigh is not in full contact, thus, not performing as well as a lighter product with full contact.

Second Skin damplifier is a constraint layer vibrations damper similar to dynamat extreme and other butyl/asphalt/foil products.
the foil absorbs heat and can act as a noise barrier, reflecting airborne sound waves (This is a side effect, not an inteded purpose).
For constraint layer dampers the majority of the weigh comes from the adhesive which is usually a elastomeric butly or asphalt mixture. Very sticky and very pliable. When you heat them up the will stick better to any clean or uncleaned surface (regardless of what the manufacturer tells you. heat helps. its physics and chemistry)

HTM is a vibration damper/mass loader with a pressure sensitive laminated adhesive. On this product the weight is not from the adhesive like on the previous material. the weight is from an SBR mastic blend of some sort. The SBR (styrene butyadine styrene) is not as flexible as the constraint layer damper. it is more rigid. this is becasue it is not an elastomer (memory holding substrate ilke buble gum, something that can strethc and return to its previous state or form). It can tear rather than strech. Because it can not bend as easily it is more difficult to work around odd shapped contours in an average vehicle.
This mateial is them laminated to a seperate film which is stiky on both sides. the adhesive as secondary part of the product where as the adhesive in the constraint layer is the primary bass of the product.

Both are good at adding weight, but the constain layer damper does a better job of reducing vibrations and air borne noise (side effect) while being easier to install and sticking better.
this is why it costs more money.

either way you will notice a decrease in vibrations. both work but constaint layer damper work better (in general)

ANT

914runner

so what would i do to deaden road noise? the expanding foam and carpet padding?
Thanks

second skin rep

Thats a completly different area.

2 demons in automotive acoutics:
structure borne vibrations and sound
Air borne vibrations and sound


Structure borne vibrations make thier own noise which turn in to airborne sound. kill the biration kill the vibration noise.
then you have to deal with:
road noise
engine noise
exhaust noise
wind noise
traffic noise
Rain and hail noise

2 ways to deal with this. (well, 3 if you include the vibration damper since they do help with this stuff [not intended to though])

Barriers and absorbers

barriers reflect and reject airborn sound waves at various frequencies. Popular barriers include:
Metals; lead, aluminum
vinyl
closed cell foam

really though anything will work. all you are doing is placing something between the source of the noise and your ears.
That being said though, som things work better than others and are lighter and much more efficialt at blocking noise (notice the word POPULAR above)

Absorber on the other hand absorb and disipate sound, sometimes turning it in to heat. sounds cool but in the end it is just frition)
absorbers include
open cell foam
closed cell foam
some poly mateials like DEFLEX PADS
a combination of both is most effective.
you can buy combo mats called composites that are like a sandwhich of acousticl products.
usualy several layers.

There is a lot more to it than just that but I am getting tired.

remember though
airborne sound must be tacked strategicly.
first use the vibration damper then a composite. creat a wall between the souce of the noise and your ears. the more layers the better the results.

Email me if you have any other questions
I am always happy to help, regardless if you use Second SKin or not
service@secondskinaudio.com

ANT

keisur

So... does this actually cost more to manufacture or is a guy paying more money just because it works better? that's sort of a bad thing in my mind because like alot of good shops I know, charge by the hour for labor and cost of the materials. They don't tack on cost just because they do a good job. I am just wondering, not starting anything, if this is what causes the price differential in such things since it seems to me that both dampeners would use about the same resources to manufacture. This is why I went with Peal-N-Seal from my local hardware store, Lowes. It's the same stuff at a fraction of the cost, and it's very plyable for contours.

second skin rep

Constraint layer dampers cost much more to produce.
reason being you have about 6 raw materials that go in to the formula to create the butyl. then you have the foil, which is more expensive. the entire process is very consuming.
more money and more energy go in to the production of constrain layer dampers.

FYI.
peel and seal is nothing like the other constrain layer dampers out there. it looks the same but so would a bmw, and a honda to someone that has never seen a car before.
P&S is a mfm product that has a heat tollerance of about 150 degrees, which is very low. it has low adhesion properties, low ALF numbers and less shelf life.
it is designed to go on roofs, flat surfaces where it does a decnt job. in a car it is totally different.
some people have good success with peel and seal, but a lot dont.

There is a guy at www.caraudioforum.com that does sound deadening testing and production for a living. he tested about 15 of the more popular materials out there. peel and sell came in about last.

so a search for use name
The_spacemonkey

tons of good info there.

let me know if you have any other questions

ANT

Bob_98SR5

i'll throw my 2 cents in here:

i used htm and P&S. in conjunction w/ the carpet padding, it is much quieter than it was before. would any of the more expensive materials work like second skin? probably so...or maybe not. i dont know b/c i have not tried it. however the big question to me is "will it justify the additional cost?" that is to say "will it be 2xs quieter...and what is that worth to you?"

and i think that is why i did not buy the expensive stuff and went with what i researched on various boards and write ups.

for my install, my main goal was to deaden the road noise coming from underneath the floorboard. it worked. in addition, i did the roof and the doors too. i may deaden the doors a little more w/ a 2nd layer of PNS to see if that will make any difference.

however as i said in my write up, the wind noise hitting the mirrors is much louder---probably more noticeable b/c of the quieter interior.

now i may consider buying SS products for both sides of my firewall area. there is still a considerable amount of noise. also, i may consider dampening the hood too, but SS does not have a black colored liner. I dont want silver b/c it looks too ricey.

i've corresponded with ANT on two occassions and as you have read above, he is very courteous and knowledgable. if i were to do it over again, i might consider using his products. however as i mentioned, my research and what i wanted to spend didn't justify laying out the difference.

bob

chuckd

Ok, so what exactly do I need to get this done? Carpet foam is no problem, cheap/free at the store. But as far a the dynamat/bread/ss stuff. ant, what would I need from you do my firewall, doors (including liftgate) and cargo area. And floor. I'll stick some scraps or someone's cheap ebay leftover pieces on the roof. I'm not sure which product to where or how much.
thanks

Flygtenstein

Thanks for the link correction Bob.

My bro got his stereo stuff done and now he wants to make it quiet in the 97. I can't see spending all that cash on Dynamatt and I would really like to teach him something by taking out the interior with my supervision. I installed his neons while he was at school and wish he could have gotten the experience.(It does pain me to say that. )

cruizin01

If you figure out per sq. ft, the second skin is a minimal difference in price. If you figure buying 50 sq.ft the mcmaster stuff is about $1.25 /sq.ft + plus shipping and the second skin is $1.65 /sq.ft with free shipping. I vote Second Skin

chuckd

does your price calculation figure in the %40 off?

cruizin01

Yes it does. I would post the link but Im not sure ANT wants it posted email him and he'll be happy to give it too you.

914runner

how much (Sq. ft.) would i need for my doors, tail gate, head liner, rear cargo area?
Thanks

Birdman

Also, how does the SS product compare with the others with respect to smell on really friggin hot days, and what are the health health implications of being enclosed in a small space with a tar based product. Do these products release toxic chems as they break down?

cruizin01

Im not sure how much sq. ft youll need Im sure someone has a closer idea than I do but Ill bet youll need atleast 50 sq. ft.

Birdman, I havent purchased mine yet, but Ive done alot of research on other forums and the SS doesn't leave behind any lingering smell.

keisur

Ouch!

Bob_98SR5

For the Mcmasters stuff, i left it out in the garage for a week or so (summertime) and after that period of time, any tar smell was gone.

I remember someone saying that it smelled really bad for a week, but that wasn't hte case for me.

As far as any toxins, i have no idea. might be a question to pose to the mcmaster.com folks.

bob

chuckd

ANT? Any info on sq. ft.?

second skin rep

here is how it usually works out wne PROPERLY DAMPING, which can include upt to 2 or 3 layers in some areas.

Doors- 12-24 sq feet each
Ceilling 24-30 sq feet
Trunk-car- 40 sq feet
Trunk lid-10 - 16 sq feet
Truck, rear wall, 20 sq feet
Fire wall, cabin side, 16 sq feet
Floor truck 30-50 sq feet
Floor car 40-60 sq feet
Floor 4runner 50-70 sq feet
Hatch 10 sq feet
Tailgate 4runner 12-28 sq feet

Average sedan total, 130 sq feet
Average 4runner total, 200 sq feet
Average truck total, 100 sq feet

Theses are just rough figures. it really depends on your goals, budget and specific car. I personally have 40 sq feet of Secondskin in each of my doors.
some people use 8 sq feet, I read recently of one guy that did 70 sq feet in each door.
It really depend on the personal situation

for more specific details on your own ride, you can email me
service@secondskinaudio.com

Hope this helps

ANT

second skin rep

Just an update...
all the Second Skin products you guys have been used have been changed.
we spent the passed 10 months developing new materials. we started with military spec vibration mats and improved the weight and damping specs.
now, even our entry level damper has a heat tollerance of over 450 degrees...
just want to make surethe old products are not confused with the new


ANT

fastv6

im not sure if you have already tackled this project but i used thi stuff from cae(cascade audio engeneiring) called v-bloc vb-1. it comes in a liquid form and you just spray it on. it is great because you just mask off what you dont want to cover. if you dont want to take a chance foaming anything you shouldnt you might look these guys up @ www.cascadeaudio.com