rimpainter.com

You rock Richard. Personally, I don't see (at this point) how this is even remotely close to being your fault. Let's take it one step at a time though. When I get home from work today, I will take a look at the frame (in correct lighting conditions) and even post some pics if they will show up.

Thanks for the reply.

jacksonpt

My DeMello sliders have done that a couple of times when I had the hi-lift too far forward or back. You can kind of see it in this pic... the front is bent up a bit.

::: TO CLERIFY MY INITIAL POST:::
I've had these sliders for a few years now, and they have been beaten around on the trail pretty good. The picture below shows where I saw minor bending as a result of using a hi-lift too far forward on the sliders (foward of the front-most frame brace). Some of the distortion seen in the pic below was caused by the hi-lift, some was also caused by numerous rocks and tree stumps.

please don't look at the pic and assume all the deflection is because of a 1-time-use of a hi-lift.

weldpro

HUH!?

I do agree with only one thing you wrote, and that is concerning the dangers of using a HL jack.

On the sliders you specifically wrote that "you dont know the first thing about these sliders". Yet for whatever reason you feel it neccessary to bash my products. Hmmmmm.............Not only do you not know anything about the products you aslo don't know anything about my business. Our background is quite extensive, and we know welding & design. We put out great products for the lowest prices we can. Along with that we back it up with great customer service, and this is why alot of YT poeple buy our products.
There are tons of other rock slider manufacturers out there, and it seems to me that one pretty much cannot go wrong with whomever they choose. More often than not a customer will go with the best prices, and secondly use the reccomendation of others. Thankfully for myself we have built a solid reputation when it comes to our products. When I started my business in April of 1998 one of my goals was to treat everybody just how I would want to be treated (fair & honest). Right from the get go we were successful, and I attribute this directly in this order to these things:
1. Treating the customer how I would want to be treated
2. Or ability to get the job done on time every time(99%+).
3. Being fair with prices (in house, mobile, product rates).

Things have changed greatly since the beginning. We no longer do portable work, and have almost completely stopped doing any custom work. I still get hit up with job offers from time to time from big business. Late last summer our company was offered a contract with Siemans medical to do all of the TIG work on a linear accelerator(SF bay area). The money was so good I wanted to cry since I knew I could not go down there to do it. These kind of things happen virtually everytime we would do a job for a business. The local job would end, and then the offer to go do other projects other places would come up. Again always such good money that the tempation was great.
The reason I now do what I do is that I take care of my kids during the day(while my wife works), and I work at night (office work during the day). My youngest will be attending kindegarten here in the fall which will open the doors back up for me. I had been waiting for this day for along time!!! However now that it is coming quick I realize that what I do right now is very satisfying. I never really thought I could sell more than a set of sliders a week, and I figured sliders would just tie me over till I could go back to work for someone else (it's WAY easier working for others! sometimes lol). What I did not count on is the customers making my job fun, and showing so much appreciation. These folks motivate me to no end- I love my customers!
Just rambling but I hope you mr 44runner have just a wee bit better of an idea about who we are.
Richard


Oh, and since I am talking I will tell you that I have had two problems in just over two years of the rock slider business.

1# The first was I sent out the wrong length 3rd gen 4runner slider to a customer in SD,Ca. He had already Rhino lined them etc. , and when it was time to install them well they were 2" to long as he had factory flaps(there are two different 3rd gen lengths long-no mud flap short-factory mud flaps!). We went above the customers expections to make 100% sure he was satisfied!

2# In Aurora Co. I sent a Tacoma Dcab customer the wrong cant 15 instead of 30. My fault again, and it was taken care of.

Not bad but I have made the changes to ensure that these mistakes dont happen again. Live & learn.

DSP

Well said Richard.

I can't work for anyone else either.
I have grown my 3 businesses successfully by putting your #1 rule first.

Always treat the customer as if you were them, and exceed their expectations.

I also see you have handled difficult customers in the past, just by your response to 44Runner. Retaliating, or throwing back bashes certainly doesn't help anything...

ohhh by the way
you have another satisfied customer in Telluride.

an old post of mine "rockware snaps up" just got a bump and have a pic of the gussets rockware added to my sliders since my welder "forgot" to add the scabs at time of installation

weldpro

EDIT*** I did not look at the pic close enough sorry! My description down below has NOTHING to do with your problem..... Totally different arena for sure. I would be extemely surprised if that were caused solely by a HL jack. It looks to me like a really, really big drop off!!!******





I should let Jason comment however I will give you my knowledge.

That is most likely not the sliders fault but rather the gusseting. Correct or even incorrect.

The max load on the slider will change when a gusset is put into the mix. MOST would think it could handle more weight. This is not neccessarily true. It will handle more static weight before bending/flexing true but because the tube length is shorter (effectively after placing the common short plate gussets we all see) when hit with a high cyclic load it will be more likely to permanently deform right at the gusset.

Basically the designers are choosing between high static load flex, and high cyclic load survivability. Some choose the first, and I choose the latter. A very debateable subject for sure!

Gusseting is not in itself bad but it must be designed with everything in mind. load, load path, surrounding structure, material size & grade, etc. etc. etc. There are alot of variables here, and many trade off's when designing.

Richard

weldpro

DSP- Thank you!

I have always wondered if I should talk to you about your gussets!. However you should read my last post, and understand the real differences between having the short gusset, and not. It's fine just different from "standard" for us!

Richard

jacksonpt

the slight bend doesn't bother me at all. I have noticed that they do bend a bit if I have the hi-lift way up front (or way out back), rather than in the middle of the slider. They only bend/flex a little, so it's not a big deal... especially now that I know to keep it in the middle of the slider. I've never really dropped down off a rock onto a slider, but I have wacked them pretty good several times and they hold up great to that (which is why I bought them).

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was complaining about the sliders - I am very happy with them as they do what they are intended to do - protect my rockers.

weldpro

So everyone knows Jacksons sliders are NOT OURS!!!!

Anyhow.

Jackson,
What you wrote is indeed normal (that is the flexing) thats going to happen when using a HL jack. The main thing is not having the permanent deforming. The picture you posted makes it look really deformed. Could be the pic I suppose. Like you said though they saved those rockers!!!
Richard

MTL_4runner

I would think something like that could happen to almost any set of sliders if you basically torque the setup by lifting on the extreme ends of the tubes. My thinking would be that the load path gets very poorly ditributed to the tubes attaching to the framerail when lifting in this manner. Perhaps you have a different take on this?

weldpro

Jamie I agree with you. It is best to try to be as close as possible to one of the support tube areas when using the HL jack. Sometime's it is not a possibilty however, and you must use whatever area works! I have never seen one like bend like Jacksons before from a HL only, and I am surprised that it is like that. I figured it had to be a one off super super hard hit. Stranger things have been known to happen!!!
Richard

jacksonpt

I'm sure that is exactly the case. Once you start jacking at a point on the sliders where there is not a frame mount in BOTH SIDES of the jacking location, I'm sure there's going to be some flex regardless. When I lowered the truck back down, they were clearly bent. Initially I was surprised, but once I thought about the physics and whatnot, I understood why it happened and I was not the least bit disappointed.

I'm sure the sliders are a bit worse for wear after a few years of trail use, and I'm sure they've sustained more damage from rocks and tree stumps than they have from my hi-lift.

I posted the pic initially to illustrate that I have also had some bending resulting from the hi-lift. I did not mean to imply that all the "distortion" shown in that photo was the result of one hi-lift "incident".

weldpro

Jackson,
I am glad you posted it's clearly tech related, and is helping this thread along with it's viewers understand some things they might not have already known! I say excellent post! Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.
Richard

jacksonpt

No problem. I think it's good to have this kind of "real world" info about products like these. Quality can vary greatly with fabbed up products like sliders, and I think it's important to be honest (and accurate) about how the sliders have held up to my use.

Plus, I want to make sure people know that DeMello Off-Road makes good, solid products. That's not a shot at your work as I have no experience with it, but I've been very pleased with my DeMello sliders and would recommend them to anyone.

waskillywabbit

iTrader: (-1)

I am amazed that something as thin as the frame on a car/truck holds up anything, but steel is an amazing thing. I have a set of Richard's 1st gen sliders, 2nd hand as they came w/ the rig because I would have had some custom made again like I did for my 3rd gen, but using the scab plates is the key...spreads out the load on that thin metal.

I see fab work day in and day out as part of my job, and Richard's stuff is top notch and he is a top notch person, and anyone who doubts that hasn't dealt with him personally.

How about talking to Badland Bumpers for me Richard and teaching him some honesty and integrity?

MTL_4runner

Richard, do you have an overall dimensional size and thickness you recommend for the scab plates on a 3rd gen 4runner?
Also, do you recommend them welded in a diamond position or square to the rails?

Sorry for all the questions.

Tacoma Dude

If it helps his instructions call for a diamond position (relative to the frame). The scab plates I got from Richard are 1/8" I think.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

I've raised the entire side of my truck off the ground with a HiLift on the very tip of my slider and never had any bending or tweaking of anything:



Sure, while the weight was on it, the gap between the inner slider bar and the body pich weld closed up (you can see the contact in the above photo from the center of the door forward). That is the key feature of the design I use, that inner bar transferring weight to the body pinch weld. But once the weight was off, it all came back to normal. That picture was taken when I was pulling my transfer case out from under the truck (explains why the front driveshaft is off). I ended up having to go nearly to the top of the 60" HiLift to get enough clearance under the frame to roll the t-case out atop the tranny jack.

What I find helps with using HiLifts is to experiment with the initial base placement. I find if you start with the jack perfectly vertical, it'll end up tipping into the vehicle as you raise it. I start by kicking the base in a little under the vehicle before jacking it up. This way as the vehicle pivots away from the jack, the jack well come into a vertical position. I also normally try to place the HiLift in between the outrigger bars on my sliders so that it won't slide out to the side. When I took the above picture, I started with the jack base kicked forward so the jack angled back into the end of the slider.

Mad Chemist

Good post Roger- I've usually tried doing the same thing with kicking the bottom in a bit so that it gets jacked into the vertical position.

One thing I've considered is making a clamshell-type slider adapter, basically putting a top half that could be clamped down onto the slider so that the hi-lift is firmly attached. I'd think this would prevent a fair amount of sliding.

Flygtenstein

Hi-lifts are a necessary trail evil. They are not a daily shop tool.

I have used them regularly, keep mine in good shape and still almost killed Steve changing a tire, at midnight, in the middle of the trail because there was no other way to do it.

DO NOT USE the Hi-lift at home. Floor jacks and jack stands are there for a reason.

seafarinman

I have my own homebuilt sliders and bumpers on my 87 SAS pickup, and I have had no distortion issues when I have lifted the entire side of the truck off the ground and lowered it back down. I am not using scab plates, but I am using 4 "legs" to attach the inner slider and 3 legs to attach the outer sliders. I also have triangle gussets on the top of the legs where they are welded to the frame. My sliders are simple, as they are my first attempt at making them, learning as I go. I am only a beginner fabricator, am an not knowledgeable in metallurgy.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...37940295pMfxUG
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...37941248KnIOBh