SEAN_at_TLT

Flygt, you still aren't acknowledging those who want to do BOTH to the highest level possible. Obviously like Death said, one will be better than the other in the end for a certain discipline but we are trying to find that hypothetical point where both can be done very, very well with little compromise. The Tacoma has 33's (not small) but is getting 35's (big enough) very soon, it has open diffs and tall gears but we have an ARB and proper gears sitting here in wait for a FROR axle housing. So basically I don't see how a short wheelbase, low center of gravity high clearance vehicle, with whopping VERTICAL wheel travel, riding on 35's with a marlin/gears/locker(s) will not do well in the rocks? I am not telling you anything that isn't true and I am not telling you specifically anything, I am posting what I have experienced for all to read and comment on. I appreciate most of your comments, they keep the discussion alive and promote people to think as you said. I don't want to prove you or anybody wrong, but I am having some trouble understanding why some people still can't believe that IFS is very capable (not speaking of cost). Especially when I am conceding that SA vehicles work very well for crawling and are typically less expensive. I don't see this as an argument, rather a discussion. back to regular scheduled programming...

Death,
we are running it as low as it needs to be to clear everything on full compression, Probably about 2.5-3" of lift not counting the lift from increasing the tire size. If you go too much higher you will get coil-bind before you can achieve full compression unless you get a custom wound longer coil (expensive). But for everything to work at its best, right where we have it is pretty much ideal.

-Sean

RedRunner_87

Good post SEAN_at_TLT. I want to do both(that is why I am keeping my 4wd). It will cost more to build up the IFS, but I want to go fast in the desert. But I also like to 4 wheel. The added travel will help that, it prolly wont do aswell as a SA truck, but it keep up with it.

Robinhood150

Like I said before, I think that we're all on the same page, just coming from different directions. Adrian knows how well ifs can do on the rocks, he has one of the most capable ifs trucks on yotatech and he uses it to the limit on some relatively tough trails. But he also knows that if he wants to do even tougher trails then he's got to go SAS. He also acknowledged that IFS is best for high speed.

I think Adrian's point was that comparing an open diff'd taco to a built jeep and saying the taco did pretty good, is no comparison. This is probably where the differing opinions are surfacing...the definition of a hard trail. I'd agree with adrian, if an open diff'd truck can do a trail, then the trail isn't very hard. It doesn't matter if it has solid axles on both ends, if it doesn't have lockers in each axle, it's not going to do well on even moderate trails (like the rubicon trail).

For example, this past weekend my club went out and ran a trail. I'm open diff'd and ifs. A new guy had a slightly lifted willys, open diff'd. Both of us had to be winched up the hardest obstacle. I was saying to him that the trail is an easy trail and he did a double take. He couldn't believe that the trail was considered easy but in the spectrum from dirt roads to the hammers, the trail wasn't that hard.

At that level of trail, ifs just plain doesn't work...it doesn't matter how much wheel travel one has if it can't articulate and ifs can't articulate (proven by the competition crawlers that are going back to solid axles)

So Sean, one cannot do "both at the highest level possible" with very little compromise. There is a huge compromise. I would almost think it would be easier to make a solid axle work well at high speeds than to make ifs work well on the rocks.

RedRunner_87

I totally agree with you and that. Good posting RobinHood.

SEAN_at_TLT

Let me re-iterate/clarify, there is a hypothetical point where an IFS truck (primarily built for high speed) can be modified/adjusted to do well in the rocks. Just as there is a point where a live axle vehicle (built primarily for the rocks) can be made to run fairly fast in the desert. I wasn't insinuating that one truck could actually do both to the maximum potential of each individual discipline. I was insinuating that we are attempting to get as close to the best possible compromise between the two. A compromise requires sacrificing some things in order to achieve others, so by it's own nature it can't be the best at "each", but it can be it's best at "both". Of course one aspect will have to lack somewhat but not as much as some might think. There have been many live axle desert trucks over the years but they have gone the way of the buffalo. They can however be made to run plenty fast for the average enthusiast (and then some). That is where I hope my point becomes more clear, I am full well aware that an IFS Tacoma will most likely not be successful in competition rock crawling, but I think it can be made incredibly capable for the average rock crawling/ off-road enthusiast (and then some) Even our highly modified Jeep is out of it's league when it comes to competition crawling. I agree that we are all pretty much on the same sheet of music, I guess it is really important to be crystal clear when describing a scenario to avoid any potential confusion.

Flygtenstein

Robinhood Steve, thanks and bingo.

That point at which an IFS truck has enough wheel travel to even start to compare with a solid axle truck is the point at which the CV's and ring and pinions start taking a dump. Not to mention steering and such.

Build some cool IFS. Lock it and gear it. Take a solid axle rig with the same tires, lockers, gears, etc. My money is on the solid axle to not break and still be streetable for the trip home. Why? Because it has more than proven itself in doing so in the past.

Compromise is just that, giving something up for something else.

And for a last point of interest. I think that Steve is the only one to read and understand my beef. The rest has been other tangents.

As I said, build cool IFS stuff. Go fast in the desert. Do not tell me it will work in rocks.

deathrunner

Never said it would be the same, I think we were all just saying that it can work fairly well.

The thing to consider here is that this is a yota site. Forget Jeeps, if we wanted a badass crawler for cheap....maybe we'd have one. The idea here is to discuss how we can build our trucks into crawlers, dune runners, and daily drivers. If you're only gonna crawl go for the sas, I agree that would be the best solution in that scenario. But I think most of us are more diverse drivers than that. IFS is more comfortable on road and has proven better in the dunes. That's 2 out of 3. And as far as crawling, I doubt a LT IFS system would fail on a moderate run.

I believe that a 4runner with a lt kit and 33's would have the same clearance and similar articulation to a 4runner with a 3" sa lift and 33's. If you compare similar beasts I think the differences would be less severe than what has been discussed.