Speedy

This weekend I went to a local tranny shop (Transmission Masters) in my area to ask about them taking the VB out so I can ship it up to IPT to have the VB upgrade done. They were very professional and seemed pretty interested in my project. The manager and I got to talking and he had me come back to talk to his master tranny guy who does all the repairs/rebuilds who seemed to really know his stuff. I told him about IPT blah blah and the VB upgrade. He said sure they could take it out and put it in for me, but that he could do the upgrade right there in the shop. He said it amounted to nothing more than a shift kit that quickened the shifting and firmed up the line pressure for the shifts and is something he routinely does to the local Mail Delivery Trucks that use this same A340 trans. He said they charge $300 + fluid for the work and it takes about 2 hours. They were very cool, and said if I wanted to ship it off that was fine but that this really wasn't a big deal and $575 seemed pretty high for the work involved. The tranny master guy said it was nothing more than drilling holes in the plate in a couple of places and putting in some new springs. He told me this before I ever told him about IPT, so he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. Funny thing was he was actually taking a valve body out while we chatted over the burst of the air ratchet.

He said the only thing he couldn't tell me is how it would "feel" to me when I drove it. He said some people love it, some hate it and it's just personal preference. He said the weight of the vehicle has a lot to do with how the shift feel, and that he believed a 4000# 4Runner wouldn't be an issue for daily driving with this done.

I also asked about putting in a tranny cooler. The guy said he'd not do that unless it was shown as necessary by a temp gauge. Anyone here have a temp gauge before and after the tranny cooler that knew for sure it was needed?

Opinions on any of this? Obviously I'd prefer to have the work done locally to avoid the down time and cost, but.....

Their final recommendation was to put the SC on and come by the shop and take them for a ride. He said he could tell pretty quick if the shifting was too soft and needed help.

MTL_4runner

You should probably read these two threads:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f2/do-they-make-shift-kits-toyota-trannys-99764/
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f2/whats-valve-body-upgrade-27512/

If this guy can "crack the code" on how to actually do it.....
I am sure some smart specialized tranny guy could easily figure it out.

mastacox

Now that is interesting... I really want to get my VB done, but if I could get it done by your tranny shop it would save me a bunch on shipping and labor...

Problem is it takes a few iterations to get the mods right, which is why IPT charges so much, they had to crank through quite a few VB's to get it right (from what I hear anyway). Although it might not be the most ethical thing to do, I really want to take my caliper to the modified VB to see exactly what they do...

Speedy

Thanks for those links. They sounded familiar so I think I've read atleast one of them before (the one where John explains it all). If they're machining channels in the VB plate, I think that's far beyond what this guy locally is talking about and maybe I need to just send it to IPT.

Speedy

For me it comes down to knowing what my car is doing. That's usually why I do all my maintenance and modifications personally. I learn as I go. I was thinking I could buddy up with the guy at this shop, show up with a case of beer and get them to let me "help" do the upgrade so that I understand what's going on. However, he never mentioned doing any machining of the VB, only upgrading springs and drilling holes. He did say it would quicken the shifting and firm them up though so maybe that's enough??

MTL_4runner

It would be nice just to have someone take a highres pic (like 7MP) of before and after, both sides.
I really don't think it's all that complicated, but you do need to know what you're looking for.

It's a moot point for me because I'm not putting on a S/C any time soon.

HUTCHSTACO

i think ipt knows...it would suck if it cost you more in the long run

midiwall

Yeup.

In the two+ years of my waiting to do mine, I talked to John (both of them) at IPT a LOT. The pure physics of doing the work is easy, if you know the sizes of the holes to drill, WHICH passages to enlarge, the rate of the new solenoid springs, etc.

Too small and you're not making enough of a difference. Too large and the pump can't keep up, which will actually make your shifts worse.

Remember how "we" (YT folks) used to talk about how Level 10 _and_ IPT did this work? Note how we no longer talk about Level 10 doing this work?



Speedy, it'll take "someone" to be the guinea pig to see if there's someone else in the country that can do this work on our rigs. The question basically becomes - are YOU willing to be that guy?

IPT's been doing it a long time, and they know our tranny's inside and out. I'm sure the guy you ran into is competent, but unless he done this a couple of times, I'd rather not risk it.


Cooler wise... The general rule of thumb on a tranny is "cooler the better". Is a $50 investment in a cooler NEEDED? It depends on your driving - towing, lugging up hills on trails, mashing your right foot off of every light? Then yeah. Cruising around town at 30mph in a grocery getter? nah.

But now ask "Is a $50 investment in a cooler a WASTE?" Nope. Absolutely not.

NX Tacoma

SO True!!!!!!!!

spaugh

sounds like the guys HAS done this a few times before on the mail trucks. And like you said, these trannies aren't being used exclusively by toyota. I would say you got to take risks in life. And you could always tell the guy that if it works out, you can get them LOTS of business. Maybe he will do yours for free. And if he screws it up, just go to a junk yard and get a new VB. Keep us posted, and be brave...

midiwall

Engine HP, engine torque, TC specs, drivetrain gearing, wheel size, vehicle weight... all of this will factor into what the shifting tranny will feel like, and it's resistance to slipping.

I would suggest that a mail truck has very little in common with a 4Runner when it comes to these specs.


I spent THREE YEARS looking for a junk yard that would sell me a VB without the tranny attached. I didn't find one that wasn't priced beyond that of the whole transmission.

Speedy

Good points. I'll probably talk to them one more time before making a final decision. If VBs were aplenty then I'd just try it and "see". With them being scarce and $800 from the dealer, I'm a little more cautious.

Why is it no one talks about Level 10 anymore?

At what temp should our tranny be maintained? The guy at this shop warned me that getting too "cool" could cause shifting problems in cooler weather. He said they're designed to work at a specific temp and that "Toyota went through a lot of engineering and design to determine the best way to keep it at that temp." His words not mine.

midiwall

Because they screwed up a couple of jobs. Like we're saying, there's a science behind this.


Jamie will have a better answer than I can give.


Ummm, sure, that's a valid statement, but we're talking about the fluid getting thicker when it's _cold_ not "cool". You're in TN, I'm thinking it's not an issue. A tranny cooler isn't gonna create such thermal dissipation that you're gonna get icicles on the tranny. We're talking about dropping tranny temps 30* or so from somewhere around 250*.

The temps in the tranny climb VERY fast from rest to load. An automatic transmission works on friction, friction is all about heat as a side effect. If you're sitting at a stoplight idling, even if it's -30* F outside, the tranny temps are above 100*. Hit the gas and lightly accelerate up to where OD kicks in, and you're over 200*. Floor it, (or pull a load up a long light grade) and you'll be pushing 300*.


'k. Umm... see above.

Again, look at the type of driving that you're going to do. With the SC and the VB mods you are putting more stress on the tranny. That additional stress will create additional heat. Even if we go with this guy's statement about the engineering hours that went into maintaining tranny temps, then you have to agree that you will NEED a cooler in order to reduce the temps to the factory designed optimum.

MTL_4runner

First off, if anyone was going to have an issue with "overcooling" it would be us guys up in Canada running tranny coolers and to date, I've had no problems at all. There is an inevitable warm up period on any tranny, but the tranny lines also run through the cooler at the bottom of the radiator which actually serves two purposes. First the tranny fluid is brought up to temp faster as the fluid shears and engine coolant also transfers heat and second is obviously the cooling aspect once the fluid reaches a temp higher than the coolant (engine coolant temp is usually around 180-210 degrees). The fact is that because of this setup, you really can't overcool the tranny fluid even in the dead of winter, but the flip side is that the cooler you do get the fluid, the longer the tranny will run problem free. Throw a supercharger on there with no cooler and you could be asking for trouble.

Here's a graph to visualize this better:


A S/C motor or towing/hauling loads up steep grades can create temps in the upper range (240-270) pretty easily during summer and you can even head towards the uppermost range (270-310) during hard acceleration with no auxilary cooler with a S/C'd motor.

As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating temperature above 175 F cuts the life of the fluid in half. At 195 degrees F, for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000 miles. At 220 F, which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is only good for about 25,000 miles. At 240 F, the fluid won't go much over 10,000 miles. Add another 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or 300 F, and 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission burns up. According to the Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association, 90% of ALL transmission failures are caused by overheating.

So you can see theer really is no way to "overcool" your tranny fliud.

Speedy

Good info, thanks. I'll look into a Hayden 679.

Now do you guys recommend the fluid go through the stock cooler first or the Hayden? Gadget's site is contradicting on that information.

MTL_4runner

Mine goes stock cooler first, Hayden second.

https://www.yotatech.com/~corey/tech...ler/cooler.htm

midiwall

Yeah, mine too.

Transdude

Hi all,

I'd like to repost an article that I had written a while back about our valve body mod, if anyone is interested.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________


Toyota Modified Valve Body

-By John Lombardo

(c) John Lombardo- All Rights Reserved
http://www.importperformancetrans.com

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________


As many Toyota and Jeep owners know, the AW4 / Toyota 340, A340, and A341E series of transmissions are generally very well made and demonstrate excellent durability in unmodified applications. The framework is present for an extremely strong transmission that is to be used in a high performance or extreme duty application.

The problem is that the original calibration is engineered for driver comfort rather than ultimate component strength. The soft, sliding shifts that are part of the original design are not appropriate for increased horsepower applications, towing, off road use, racing, etc.

These calibration inadequacies quickly manifest themselves as extremely poor shift quality, and more often than not, severe damage to the gearbox is soon to follow. One of the most common symptoms of this is the engine stuttering or hitting the rev limiter during a full throttle upshift.

Without going into too much technical detail, the factory shortcomings can be addressed through modification and recalibration of the control valve assembly, a.k.a. the valve body.

The valve body is a component that is comprised of valves, solenoids, an orifice separator plate and an intricate series of passages- it is the most complex component in the most complex part of your vehicle- the automatic transmission.

The function of the valve body is to act as the "brain" of the automatic transmission- it directs hydraulic pressure to the appropriate clutches and bands at the right time to initiate upshifts, down shifts, selection of reverse, converter clutch application, etc. As well as controlling shift timing and shift quality, it is also responsible for directing hydraulic pressure to the cooler and the lubrication circuit.

As you can imagine, the transmission's operational characteristics can be drastically altered and also customized to the given application through modifications to this component.

Because there are no commercially available shift kits for these transmissions, we began working on valve body modifications that were appropriate for Supras, Jeeps with the AW4 transmission, Toyota Tundra, Tacoma and 4Runner, and also Lexus SUV's and rear drive passenger cars- especially those that needed to handle the additional power that accompanies the installation of a supercharger, turbo or nitrous oxide injection.

At the risk of oversimplification, there are a few things that are done in concert to create much more favorable operation of the gearbox.

The first thing that needs to be done is to increase the hydraulic operating pressure of the transmission- this pressure is known as "line pressure". All hydraulic functions of the transmission are based on this pressure- what is especially of concern for these purposes is the clamping force which is applied to the clutches and bands to get them to hold against engine torque.

In simple terms, increased engine output is complemented by increased line pressure and increased "clamp" on the clutches- this can be likened to a performance clutch with a heavier pressure plate spring in a manual transmission equipped vehicle.

The idea is to raise this pressure only slightly at light throttle but increase it by 30-40% at full throttle- where it is really needed. The effects of this are shifts that are not overly uncomfortable at lower throttle openings, while at heavier throttle, firm shifts with much shorter clutch application time and increased clamping force can be achieved.

An additional benefit of this is increased flow through the transmission's cooler and lube system.

Secondly, hydraulic pressure is normally routed through an orifice in a metal "separator plate" that resides between the two halves of the valve body before it gets to its intended destination. By altering these orifices, we can increase the volume of hydraulic oil that is used to apply the various clutches and bands.

The final part of modification is the alteration of the accumulator circuits. These are hydraulic circuits that are parallel to the components that are used for shifting. Their function is to absorb or "accumulate" some of the hydraulic pressure that is intended to apply a clutch pack or band. By limiting the action of what is essentially a "shock absorber" for each shift, we are able to further reduce clutch lock up time and shift lag at wide open throttle.

The end result is that shift time is reduced by 30 to 80%, depending on the amount of acceptable shift feel and the intended application. The clamping force that is required to apply the clutches and bands is increased by 30 to 40% at full throttle. Flow through the cooler and lube circuit is increased and the converter clutch application time is also reduced.

Transmission and valve body upgrades are not only for American made vehicles anymore. Increased performance and more efficient shifting is now available for vehicles of almost every manufacturer- thanks to the few companies that are willing to do the research and development work required for this rapidly growing segment of the automotive aftermarket.

For more information, please follow this link: Toyota Modified Valve Body


-John Lombardo, IPT Performance Transmissions

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________


Author Bio: John Lombardo, a.k.a. Transdude, is owner of IPT Performance Transmissions and has been in the transmission and high performance industry for over 20 years. Visit his website- http://www.importperformancetrans.com for more drivetrain information articles and a wide selection of high performance items.
IPT tech info, specials and a $25 coupon via email


**This free reprint article is available for use in ezines,
forums, websites and blogs on the condition that the article
is not altered and the resource box remains intact with all
hyperlinks activated. If this article is reproduced, an
email to the author with a link to its location is greatly
appreciated- john@ipttrans.com

midiwall

John! Good to hear from ya' man. I'm LOVING my truck. now that I finally let you guys have at th VB!

Transdude

Good to hear from you, too.

-John