For those considering a s/c, here are some thoughts

ebelen1 · 11-17-2005, 02:07 PM

Since I got my truck a few months ago, I've been debating on a s/c. Everyone here with one has been great in answering questions but I wanted to know what was the minimum required in terms of parts, dollars and labor to make the truck run well and last long. I talked w/ URD and here is what I was told. This agrees with most of the s/c people on this board.

1. You'll need, at a minimum, the s/c, fuel kit, cat back exhaust system, smaller pulley (2.2), and a bunch of tools that tune the s/c.
2. I've searched the net and even talked to a friend who's husband works for Toyota. The cheapest I could find a new s/c was $1999 from a Toyota dealer. This is less than $200 more than dealer cost. Fuel mods from URD is another $1000. The pulley and cat back exhaust can be had for as low as $400 but can go as high as $1000 depending on what you get. All the tuning tools are about $400.
3. Totaling this all, you get $3500 - $4000. This is the bare minimum suggested.
4. You can be creative like Christian (96runner) and do a donor mod but I'm not mechanically inclined.
5. Total labor is approximately 8 hours so depending on the shop per hour cost, you can figure this out.

Good luck to anyone that can use this info. It was helpful for me in determining to do the regear instead and deal with the stock power of the 3.4. I'm not complaining but seeing people do 300 to the wheels and a guy that can do a 14 sec quarter mile is pretty awesome. Just not for me right now...

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FilthyRich · 11-17-2005, 02:08 PM

to the point

X-AWDriver · 11-17-2005, 02:19 PM

The exhaust isn't a must and the fuel mod is nice but there are alot of people that run fine w/o it but it can be hit and miss.

If you check here and ebay you'll see some people unload a whole package deal for under $2k for the SC and fuel kit.

Mason Dixon · 11-17-2005, 02:42 PM

don't you have to upgrade your transmission?

X-AWDriver · 11-17-2005, 02:54 PM

No,there's plenty of people that just run the SC around here but our altitude does help reduce/eliminate pinging issues due to the SC not making the same power up here at over a mile high asl.

ebelen1 · 11-17-2005, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-AWDriver

The exhaust isn't a must and the fuel mod is nice but there are alot of people that run fine w/o it but it can be hit and miss.

If you check here and ebay you'll see some people unload a whole package deal for under $2k for the SC and fuel kit.

There are definitely deals if you're willing to go used. I wasn't for a number of reasons, one being I don't know crap about cars and didn't want to get stuck w/ a broken s/c. My list was only for those that were considering the s/c new.

The fuel mods from what I've read and talking to URD are a must. What I said was to get the truck running well and to last long. Some don't have issues but if I spent all the cash on the other items and I didn't do the fuel mods, I may be sorry later. Plus, install is a one-time shop for all the items listed.

***midiwall*** · 11-17-2005, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebelen1

1. You'll need, at a minimum...smaller pulley (2.2)

Nah... The stock pulley will give you plenty of kick. When you want MORE, then go smaller - but ONLY if you have ALL of the fuel mods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Dixon

don't you have to upgrade your transmission?

For an automatic, you "should" but many folks haven't (myself included) because of the additional cost and downtime (about $1000). If you don't, then you'll find that the 1st-2nd shift will be slippery, and get worse the more you stand on it. In short, you'll want to stay out of heavy boost without tranny work.

sgirt · 11-17-2005, 03:28 PM

Mine was a refurb from the dealer. Only 1400. I do not have a cat back or any other fuel mods. I have a lot more power over the stock 3.4. I hope to get a header and a cat back at some point.

X-AWDriver · 11-17-2005, 03:32 PM

I've seen new ones go on here for about $1500 and alot of people get a charger and then don't like the MPGs from a heavy foot or having to use premium and sell thier SCs with under 10,000 on 'em for about the same price plus it is a Toyota part.

HOJU · 11-17-2005, 03:41 PM

I've had the S/C for just over a year, and got a way with it for $1000 new. I've got an exhaust, and so far have had no pinging or felt a change in my tranny. Elevation here in Utah helps too...

nrgetic99 · 11-17-2005, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebelen1

Since I got my truck a few months ago, I've been debating on a s/c. Everyone here with one has been great in answering questions but I wanted to know what was the minimum required in terms of parts, dollars and labor to make the truck run well and last long. I talked w/ URD and here is what I was told. This agrees with most of the s/c people on this board.

1. You'll need, at a minimum, the s/c, fuel kit, cat back exhaust system, smaller pulley (2.2), and a bunch of tools that tune the s/c.
2. I've searched the net and even talked to a friend who's husband works for Toyota. The cheapest I could find a new s/c was $1999 from a Toyota dealer. This is less than $200 more than dealer cost. Fuel mods from URD is another $1000. The pulley and cat back exhaust can be had for as low as $400 but can go as high as $1000 depending on what you get. All the tuning tools are about $400.
3. Totaling this all, you get $3500 - $4000. This is the bare minimum suggested.
4. You can be creative like Christian (96runner) and do a donor mod but I'm not mechanically inclined.
5. Total labor is approximately 8 hours so depending on the shop per hour cost, you can figure this out.

Good luck to anyone that can use this info. It was helpful for me in determining to do the regear instead and deal with the stock power of the 3.4. I'm not complaining but seeing people do 300 to the wheels and a guy that can do a 14 sec quarter mile is pretty awesome. Just not for me right now...

My SC was under $1500 used.

I installed myself.

I added a tranny cooler at $70 and some other odds and ends.

Never had significant HGLR ping but did drop about $50 on plugs.

All up, I had around $1700 in mine.

I did already have a TRD cat back but would happliy have installed without.

David

11-17-2005, 04:20 PM

Good thread. Has anyone heard any update(s) from URD about their turbo kit for the 3.4?

Noliwan · 11-17-2005, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUJWE

Good thread. Has anyone heard any update(s) from URD about their turbo kit for the 3.4?

Yeah go to this thread on CT...

http://www.customtacos.com/ubbthread...&o=186&fpart=1

I've seen this baby in person up close-- Guy lives pretty close to me & Dave (TRDOLMAN) All I can say is WOW....!!! very impressive...

11-17-2005, 04:44 PM

Thanks for the link. I will have some reading to do when I get home from work later.

rimpainter.com · 11-17-2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebelen1

4. You can be creative like Christian (96runner) and do a donor mod but I'm not mechanically inclined.

Thanks, I like being called creative.

I know "URD kit" and "TRD SC'r" go hand in hand these days, but I would like to point out that it can be done without going with the full URD kit. Here is exactly what you need to completely eliminate the dreaded 2000 - 3000 (HG/LR) ping and high end fuel starvation:

1. Walbro 190 $85
2. 2-step colder plugs $25
3. Coolant change with water wetter $25
4. NAPA 170 degree thermo $12
5. Free FMU mod
6. SMT 6 $350

TOTAL: about $500 in addition to the SC'r

And for the record, Gadget told me he was approved to be a SMT dealer. He was just waiting on more success stories before pulling the trigger. He asked that I let him know when I finally got it working correctly (Mark, Johnny and I that is), and I did. But I never heard back from him.

Oh well. Anyway, with the stock injectors and the mods above, you can ditch the ping and run with an open deckplate. My next step is to hook up an EGT meter to call it a done deal with utmost certainty, but it sure looks like that has been accomplished. Yes, I did retard the heck out the timing in the 2K to 3K range (-4 to -9), but you get used to it.

Anyway, good call on the re-gear. I did that first too. Then I wanted more, and jumped on the opportunity when it presented itself. Total cost out of my pocket: $0

***midiwall*** · 11-17-2005, 05:08 PM

Something confuses me about turbo setups... How is it that a turbo produces more get-up-and-go at the same boost pressure that "we" are with S/Cs?

ssbogger · 11-17-2005, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebelen1

Since I got my truck a few months ago, I've been debating on a s/c. Everyone here with one has been great in answering questions but I wanted to know what was the minimum required in terms of parts, dollars and labor to make the truck run well and last long. I talked w/ URD and here is what I was told. This agrees with most of the s/c people on this board.

1. You'll need, at a minimum, the s/c, fuel kit, cat back exhaust system, smaller pulley (2.2), and a bunch of tools that tune the s/c.
2. I've searched the net and even talked to a friend who's husband works for Toyota. The cheapest I could find a new s/c was $1999 from a Toyota dealer. This is less than $200 more than dealer cost. Fuel mods from URD is another $1000. The pulley and cat back exhaust can be had for as low as $400 but can go as high as $1000 depending on what you get. All the tuning tools are about $400.
3. Totaling this all, you get $3500 - $4000. This is the bare minimum suggested.
4. You can be creative like Christian (96runner) and do a donor mod but I'm not mechanically inclined.
5. Total labor is approximately 8 hours so depending on the shop per hour cost, you can figure this out.

Good luck to anyone that can use this info. It was helpful for me in determining to do the regear instead and deal with the stock power of the 3.4. I'm not complaining but seeing people do 300 to the wheels and a guy that can do a 14 sec quarter mile is pretty awesome. Just not for me right now...

All of that might be necessary IF you run a smaller pulley. If you stick with the stock pulley, as someone said earlier, you can get out alot cheaper. Hell, all i did was change plugs and run premium. No ping for the 20k miles i drove with it on. Oh and I put it on at 90,000 miles. I sold car with 113k miles and as far as I know shes still going strong, just ask Northfacer581.

You can find the SC's new on ebay for under 2k all the time. It just takes some looking and patience. I will be putting one on my tacoma if I can find it for cheap.

ebelen1 · 11-17-2005, 05:36 PM

Thanks for the input and I'm sure this will help others that are trying to decide. This list is not the bare minimum. It is if you want to have someone else install everything and are looking for cost/benefit.

You don't have to put in a smaller pulley but for $137, why not? If you put the smaller pulley and you feel like I do that not putting in fuel mods will cause faster engine wear, then this is minimum for me. Not to mention installing all these items I noted together would be the most beneficial from a cost perspective on install or a time perspective for those mechanically inclined to do so.

I love ebay and have bought many items on it. However, putting down over $1k for a s/c that may or may not be new is a tough pill for me to swallow. If you guys are comfortable with this, cool. If I could get a brand new s/c today for $1k, I would buy it right now and hold it till I can save for the rest. As I said earlier, dealer cost is $1800 and change (verified by Toyota corporate). If someone is selling you one of these for less, then they're taking a loss, stole the item, or something shady maybe going on.

Keep chiming in with your thoughts as this could become a sticky for people looking into a s/c...

rimpainter.com · 11-17-2005, 08:26 PM

And, like many of us "tuned" SC'd guys mention to the "non-tuned" guys in each thread like this, just because you don't hear the ping doesn't mean you aren't damaging the motor. That is exactly why I tuned out the audible ping, then retarded the timing a couple degrees more in the "hot zones" for added security. However, I am fully aware that I need to check my EGT's to make sure my motor is truly ok. The guys at or around sea level running with no mods are playing roulette. Plain and simple.

hondavxr · 11-17-2005, 08:57 PM

Turbo produces more hp because it is intercooled air. Colder, more dense air equals more hp, with less psi. It is a problem to trying to intercool a s/c because you must cool the pressurized air, pressurized air on MOST s/c is located right after the throttle body. Its hard to try to intercool at that section because by the time you reroute everything thing you would have lost pressure and horses. Many companies have tried esp, with Hondas but the cost exceeds the benefits. Some intercooler kits ran up towards the 3000, just for the s/c intercooler kit. Turbo is a good route because it uses waste energy, the exhaust air, to pressurize the air. Turbo has no paradrastic drag on the motor like s/c. With the turbo technology these days, you could get pretty instant turbo response from a big snail, without the lag. Well, turbo does not usually have the instant torque that s/c has. I hope this kit will be mass market so the cost will go down. I have been waiting for a affordable priced turbo kit for the 3.4 motor, for a long while now.

***midiwall*** · 11-17-2005, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebelen1

You don't have to put in a smaller pulley but for $137, why not?

Whoa... hang on a minute.

The 2.2" pulley ("one step" smaller) is probably the SMALLEST I would go without running one more thing... a misting system. The reason being is that as you've heard, Christian (96 runner) has had to retard his timing a BUNCH to get rid of ping - I'm even more "retarded" (

) with my 2.2" pulley.

If you go to a 2.1" or a 2.0" pulley then you will burn the crap out of the motor unless you find someway to slow down the burn of the fuel. That means a higher octane number or retarding the timing even more. A misting system does well to create the burn equivilant of a higher octane, thus giving you a slower burn, thus reducing the ping.

And in reality... With my 1-step colder plugs, a spark kicker and -10's and -11's in my ignition map, I still ping under load with the 2.2" pulley. I can "drive around it", but it's not safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hondavxr

Turbo produces more hp because it is intercooled air. Colder, more dense air equals more hp, with less psi.

Ahh right. I knew that.

Thank you!

tc · 11-18-2005, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hondavxr

Turbo produces more hp because it is intercooled air. Colder, more dense air equals more hp, with less psi. It is a problem to trying to intercool a s/c because you must cool the pressurized air, pressurized air on MOST s/c is located right after the throttle body. Its hard to try to intercool at that section because by the time you reroute everything thing you would have lost pressure and horses. Many companies have tried esp, with Hondas but the cost exceeds the benefits. Some intercooler kits ran up towards the 3000, just for the s/c intercooler kit. Turbo is a good route because it uses waste energy, the exhaust air, to pressurize the air. Turbo has no paradrastic drag on the motor like s/c. With the turbo technology these days, you could get pretty instant turbo response from a big snail, without the lag. Well, turbo does not usually have the instant torque that s/c has. I hope this kit will be mass market so the cost will go down. I have been waiting for a affordable priced turbo kit for the 3.4 motor, for a long while now.

Huh? The ONLY difference in a supercharger and a turbocharger (which is technically named a turbosupercharger) is the way they are driven. You are cooling pressurized air on a turbo also - it is the compression itself that creates the heat! Intercooling does indeed have the effect you talk about (denser oxygen charge), but there is NO difference in intercooling a supercharger and a turbocharger. Well, other than the plumbing involved as you mention. It is truly impossible to intercool a supercharger built straight onto the intake, but it would be impossible to intercool a turbo mounted the same way. As a matter of fact, Seadoo even makes a jetski that has an intercooled supercharger (making 215 HP!). I have not seen the TRD s/c kit, so I'm not sure where it's mounted, and whether the proposed turbo is intercooled or not.

The advantage to turbo is less polar inertia (lighter rotor) and no parasitic drag.

***midiwall*** · 11-18-2005, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc

I have not seen the TRD s/c kit, so I'm not sure where it's mounted, and whether the proposed turbo is intercooled or not.

It's mounted such that it becomes the intake manifold. You pull the stock intake manifold & plenum and bolt the S/C right on top of the block. There's no chance for an intercooler.

tc · 11-18-2005, 06:35 AM

That would indeed make intercooling difficult! Water injection...propane...nitrous....LOL

ebelen1 · 11-18-2005, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midiwall

Whoa... hang on a minute.

The 2.2" pulley ("one step" smaller) is probably the SMALLEST I would go without running one more thing... a misting system. The reason being is that as you've heard, Christian (96 runner) has had to retard his timing a BUNCH to get rid of ping - I'm even more "retarded" (

) with my 2.2" pulley.

If you go to a 2.1" or a 2.0" pulley then you will burn the crap out of the motor unless you find someway to slow down the burn of the fuel. That means a higher octane number or retarding the timing even more. A misting system does well to create the burn equivilant of a higher octane, thus giving you a slower burn, thus reducing the ping.

And in reality... With my 1-step colder plugs, a spark kicker and -10's and -11's in my ignition map, I still ping under load with the 2.2" pulley. I can "drive around it", but it's not safe.

Ahh right. I knew that.

Thank you!

Exactly. The smaller the pulley, the greater the heat. This is the smallest pulley (according to URD) that can be run w/o a misting system. Again, these statements are only for those that believe that you do everything to have the truck run well and for a long period of time. You can do anything you want; run smaller pulleys, don't do fuel mods, don't tune the sucker; but as Christian stated above, you're gambling. Wasn't willing to do this w/ a DD.

11-17-2005, 02:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
X-AWDriver Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Littleton,CO Posts: 10,179	The exhaust isn't a must and the fuel mod is nice but there are alot of people that run fine w/o it but it can be hit and miss. If you check here and ebay you'll see some people unload a whole package deal for under $2k for the SC and fuel kit. __________________ '99 4Runner Highlander 4wd E-locker,rear diff and deckplate mod * 265/75/16 Nitto TerraGrapplers * Yakima Load Warrior rack * clear corners/signals * Tacoma skidplate * Silverstar lamps/fogs Alpine CDA-9831,Bazooka EL Series 250w amp,MTX 10" sub

11-17-2005, 02:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mason Dixon Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Huntsville, Alabama Posts: 797	don't you have to upgrade your transmission? __________________ http://www.sectalk.com/images/graphi...ds/alabama.gif 2000 4Runner SR5 4x4 Sport

11-17-2005, 02:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
X-AWDriver Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Littleton,CO Posts: 10,179	No,there's plenty of people that just run the SC around here but our altitude does help reduce/eliminate pinging issues due to the SC not making the same power up here at over a mile high asl. __________________ '99 4Runner Highlander 4wd E-locker,rear diff and deckplate mod * 265/75/16 Nitto TerraGrapplers * Yakima Load Warrior rack * clear corners/signals * Tacoma skidplate * Silverstar lamps/fogs Alpine CDA-9831,Bazooka EL Series 250w amp,MTX 10" sub

11-17-2005, 03:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
sgirt Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming Posts: 198	Mine was a refurb from the dealer. Only 1400. I do not have a cat back or any other fuel mods. I have a lot more power over the stock 3.4. I hope to get a header and a cat back at some point. __________________ Mine- 2000 Sport 4runner Supercharged, 5 Speed, Kings, OME891's, 285/70/17's, 4:30's, Rear E-Locker. Wifes- 1999 Sport Highlander 4Runner, Auto, 4:30's, E-Locker. My Web page

11-17-2005, 03:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
X-AWDriver Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Littleton,CO Posts: 10,179	I've seen new ones go on here for about $1500 and alot of people get a charger and then don't like the MPGs from a heavy foot or having to use premium and sell thier SCs with under 10,000 on 'em for about the same price plus it is a Toyota part. __________________ '99 4Runner Highlander 4wd E-locker,rear diff and deckplate mod * 265/75/16 Nitto TerraGrapplers * Yakima Load Warrior rack * clear corners/signals * Tacoma skidplate * Silverstar lamps/fogs Alpine CDA-9831,Bazooka EL Series 250w amp,MTX 10" sub

11-17-2005, 03:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
HOJU Contributing Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: UTAH Posts: 1,278	I've had the S/C for just over a year, and got a way with it for $1000 new. I've got an exhaust, and so far have had no pinging or felt a change in my tranny. Elevation here in Utah helps too... __________________ Allen- "You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel..." Return With Honor

11-17-2005, 04:20 PM	#12 (permalink)
AUJWE Guest Posts: n/a	Good thread. Has anyone heard any update(s) from URD about their turbo kit for the 3.4?

11-17-2005, 04:44 PM	#14 (permalink)
AUJWE Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks for the link. I will have some reading to do when I get home from work later.

11-17-2005, 05:08 PM	#16 (permalink)
*midiwall* Sponsoring Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seattleish, WA Posts: 9,078	Something confuses me about turbo setups... How is it that a turbo produces more get-up-and-go at the same boost pressure that "we" are with S/Cs? __________________ ~ Mark '96 4Runner Limited S/C MI - 370cc injectors, Air! horns, Airaid MIT, ATS A-arms, 285/75/R16 BFG MTs, Bored TB, Brembo slotted, Cobra 75 WXST, Deckplate, Downey headers, Hayden cooler, IPT valve body, Level 10 torque convertor, Meanstreak exhaust, OME/OME rears, On-board PC (XM, Nav, WiFi, etc), Port 'n Polish, Remote Start, SAW fronts, Hilux console, SMT-5, Stubb's sliders, Supra MAF, TJM-17, 2.0" pulley, Viair 450c, Walbro 190, Weasy2k cams

11-17-2005, 05:36 PM	#18 (permalink)
ebelen1 Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Socal Posts: 1,964	Thanks for the input and I'm sure this will help others that are trying to decide. This list is not the bare minimum. It is if you want to have someone else install everything and are looking for cost/benefit. You don't have to put in a smaller pulley but for $137, why not? If you put the smaller pulley and you feel like I do that not putting in fuel mods will cause faster engine wear, then this is minimum for me. Not to mention installing all these items I noted together would be the most beneficial from a cost perspective on install or a time perspective for those mechanically inclined to do so. I love ebay and have bought many items on it. However, putting down over $1k for a s/c that may or may not be new is a tough pill for me to swallow. If you guys are comfortable with this, cool. If I could get a brand new s/c today for $1k, I would buy it right now and hold it till I can save for the rest. As I said earlier, dealer cost is $1800 and change (verified by Toyota corporate). If someone is selling you one of these for less, then they're taking a loss, stole the item, or something shady maybe going on. Keep chiming in with your thoughts as this could become a sticky for people looking into a s/c...

11-17-2005, 08:26 PM	#19 (permalink)
rimpainter.com Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,797	And, like many of us "tuned" SC'd guys mention to the "non-tuned" guys in each thread like this, just because you don't hear the ping doesn't mean you aren't damaging the motor. That is exactly why I tuned out the audible ping, then retarded the timing a couple degrees more in the "hot zones" for added security. However, I am fully aware that I need to check my EGT's to make sure my motor is truly ok. The guys at or around sea level running with no mods are playing roulette. Plain and simple. __________________ www.rimpainter.com Get your O Gasket Mod Here! My SC'd 4Runner's Profile My YouTube vids

11-17-2005, 08:57 PM	#20 (permalink)
hondavxr Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 38	Turbo produces more hp because it is intercooled air. Colder, more dense air equals more hp, with less psi. It is a problem to trying to intercool a s/c because you must cool the pressurized air, pressurized air on MOST s/c is located right after the throttle body. Its hard to try to intercool at that section because by the time you reroute everything thing you would have lost pressure and horses. Many companies have tried esp, with Hondas but the cost exceeds the benefits. Some intercooler kits ran up towards the 3000, just for the s/c intercooler kit. Turbo is a good route because it uses waste energy, the exhaust air, to pressurize the air. Turbo has no paradrastic drag on the motor like s/c. With the turbo technology these days, you could get pretty instant turbo response from a big snail, without the lag. Well, turbo does not usually have the instant torque that s/c has. I hope this kit will be mass market so the cost will go down. I have been waiting for a affordable priced turbo kit for the 3.4 motor, for a long while now. __________________ 97 4runner Limited stock-Rolled over, Roof chopped off and getting new roof 400 hp Turbo Civic-GONE Thieves suck butt 13 sec NA Civic Hatch

11-18-2005, 06:35 AM	#24 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,377	That would indeed make intercooling difficult! Water injection...propane...nitrous....LOL __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

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