Sequoia'd

Here's the prob: '91 4Runner V6, Autotrans... replaced the starter 4 times in last 3 months!!! Turn the key, clicks once. When it does this, sometimes takes 20+ for it to kick over the starter. You can hear the solonoid click, and a relay under the dash above the ECU (labeled Circuit Operating Relay) clicks once but still no starting. Latest starter is from Toyota it's 1 week old!! :pat:

If it was the neutral kill switch you would think it wouldn't click... same with ignition switch. So what else is it??? I ordered the above relay... will be here tomorrow but who knows if this is it. One thing about the relay, remove it and it cranks but won't start. Any ideas other than contacts?? It won't do it everytime so it's impossible to diagnose. Only does it when you can't take the time to chase it down.
HELP IT"S DRIVING ME CRAZY!!!


edited for speLLinq

seaflea

next time it happens, check the small wire from the battery to the fuse block. ( the small ire on the Pos. side of the battery) Mine was corroded inside and it caused the symptoms you are describing.

Sequoia'd

Seaflea,
I hate to bother but can you explain in further detail? Are you referring to the fuse block inside or the one in the engine compartment? Any other info you can share is appreciated!
Thanks

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

I have some troubleshooting and repair tips on my page. The CO relay doesn't operate the starter, it is turned on by the ignition switch but is separate from the starter. Before blindly throwing more parts (and $$$) at the problem, figure out what is wrong (following my troubleshooting tips) and fix the cause instead of the symptoms.

seaflea

I am trying (not too good at explaining) to refer to the fuse box in the engine compartment. Mine is by the battery, so the wire is only about 6" long or so. It is connect to the battery on the positive side along with the starter cable. you can also check Rogers (4crawler)web site. he has a lot of info on thers that has helped me out many times.

Sequoia'd

4Crawler,
How do I troubleshoot it when it is intermittent? If if would fail regularly, I think I could chase it down but it seems to fail only when I'm not able to start the diagnosing process.

By the way, it dosen't matter whether it's hot, cold, wet dry, sitting for days, or sittting for a few minutes. When it goes... it goes.

Again, where do I start before it leaves me stranded in the middle of nowhere? Two of the Toyota dealers said they can't fix it if it's not failing at the time they have it. They could end up having it for weeks before it acted up. (could you imagine how many door dings it would have sitting at Toyota for a week!!)

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

That's the tricky part in debugging intermittent problems.

Best bet is to wire up some voltmeter probes at the solenoid control terminal and when it does act up, hook up the meter and check the voltage at the terminal. As I note on my page, if the voltage there is not within 1/2 volt of the battery, then you have a problem "upstream" from the solenoid. And since it works most of the time, also measure the voltage when it does work. Then you have a baseline reading of a "normal" condition to compare with when it doesn't work.

Or, do like I did and install a starter relay. If you can get the relay to turn on (only takes 10s of milliamps) then it turns on the solenoid (several amps) which in turn fires up the starter motor (100s of amps). Or do the wiring mod I show on my page to change the power source for the existing starter relay (if you have one, my '85 does not).

cf2

I had a persistant starting problem as well. Replaced the contacts, replaced the starter and battery cables. Eventually turned out to be the small cable that runs from the trucks wiring harness down to the starter. It has a small black plug on the end of it. It had corroded right at the plug more than half of the wire strands had snapped.

I was able to get that one cable cut out of a harness at a dismantler and it fixed the problem. Hasn't happend now for three months!

Fahrenheit 451

Some reading here:

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf

I'd say start checking wires. It is probably going to come down to bad battery cables, bad ground, corroded or broken wire somewhere or bad contact at the battery itself. I've fixed an old Celica before that the lady couldn't get to fire up no matter what she did just by cutting off the wire at the battery and sticking a new end on it. In that case, (older style ignition system) there was a hot lead from the battery to the ignition and without it, no fire to the ignition system.
It's a long shot, but have you ever tried jerking around on the shifter when you try to start it? Maybe the neutral safety switch is out of adjustment.
Good luck!

Sequoia'd

Neutral kill was one of my first thoughts... I did try on several occassions to jiggle the shifter but it didn't make a difference. I'm gonna start chasing wires tomorrow and see if I can find anything that looks out of place. Ever since I started this post, it's been starting properly. Maybe I just need to keep posting forever and forever and ... I still have a little humor left

89_4runner

I have had the same, very intermittent problem for over 1 year. I have replaced the starter twice and the ignition switch once. I was planning to replace the neutral start switch until I read this post. The truck was starting fine for the last month, until this last weekend... When it doesn't want to start, the CO relay clicks and all the electrical accessories work. It also doesn't seem to matter about moving the auto trans shifter through the range. The only thing that seems to help is to walk away from the truck for a few minutes and try again to start it. Sometimes it takes 20 or 30 minutes and fires up. Sounds strange, but that's how it acts.

Anyway, I decided to check the system with a multimeter tonight while it wanted to start. The main starter voltage was 12.3V and the solenoid switch had 11.5V. I assume this is fine (it starts). For my 89 V6 auto, there is no starter relay (M/T only), but maybe adding one would fix the problem. It's probably a lot cheaper than $160 for the neutral start switch.

I also decided to replace the connector on the small wire running from the battery to the fuse box under the hood (inches behind battery). Maybe it will make a difference because the wire and connector at the battery were fairly corroded.

I'll wait for it to happen again and carry the wiring diagram and multimeter...

COYOTA $x$

Is this after the truck was running.... or when the motor is cold ?

89_4runner

Happens either way. I have driven it 15 minutes, stopped and shut it off, and 5 minutes later it won't start. I have also let it sit for 9 hours (at work) and when I go to leave it won't start.

It also seems to come in spurts, but it's still intermittent. It may go a month between acting up, but when it does it might happen again in a day or two. Then it waits another month or 3 months.

I was thinking that either the starter is getting hot from the header or the neutral start switch was getting hot on the side of the trans. But neither explains why it won't start when the engine is cold. Also when it decides to start, it starts right up (~1 sec of cranking). When it won't start I can always hear the Circuit Open relay clicking above the ECU.

Maybe there is a wire short somewhere or just corrosion. I'm not very electrically inclined, but the symptoms tend to point towards a lack of power to the solenoid switch.

I just copied the wiring diagram from my manual and I'll carry that and the multimeter so I can probe around when it acts up next. I really hate to throw away money on more switches, etc. if it's a wire issue. I like Roger's idea about adding the starter relay and might add that anyway.

Sequoia'd

Clint,

You just explained my problem exactly as it occurs!! Let's keep in touch... if I discover the culprit, I'll be sure to let you know.
Thanks,
Bill

89_4runner

Will do. I might try the relay idea with a spare KC light relay I have. It is conveniently located on the passenger side fender. I need to check what the current rating is before doing anything though.

Do you have a wiring diagram for your truck? If interested I can post the copy I made from my manual this morning (88 truck/4Runner FSM).

Sequoia'd

Clint,
I've got the '91 Service Manual so I'm covered on the wiring diagram... thanks anyway.
I'm looking at adding a relay myself. Just need to go over the method to make sure I get it right. Where is Flower Mound? I'm just nort of San Antonio

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

Not much to it, my Painless relay is wired into the system quite simply. Cut the wire to the solenoid, take the incoming part and connect it to one side of the relay coil, other side to ground. This turns the relay on whenever they key is in the start position. Hook one side of the contacts to the battery or to the big wire on the starter (fuse for safety) then hook the other side of the contacts to the wire that runs to the solenoid. I used spade lugs on mine and arranged the male-female ends to allow the relay to be easily removed and the stock wiring restored if needed.

Sequoia'd

4Crawler,
Please forgive me for being so dense!
Any chance you can post a wiring diagram of your relay setup?
Thanks in advance,
Bill

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

Probably looks more complicated than it really is:



Before:
Ignition switch turns on the solenoid (may go through other junk like neutral start, clutch cancel, etc.)
Solenoid turns on the starter.

After:
Ignition turns on the new relay
New relay turns on the solenoid
Solenoid turns on the starter

For a kit that is ready to hook up, I used the Painless Wiring Hot Shot starter relay kit. You don't even need a schematic to install it, its all color coded and the instructions are really simple. I got mine from Summit Racing.

89_4runner

Hi Roger,
Any idea roughly how much current the solenoid needs? My KC light relay is actually a Bosch 30A that hopefully will do the trick. I can go home and hook up the multimeter again and test, but I would appreciate your input.