How do balljoint spacers work (and do they work on 4wd)?

ianshoots · 08-09-2004, 09:04 PM

In my continuing quest to get a grip on all the possibilities for lifting my tacoma (and still hoping to find the magic combination of being cheap[er] and yet not adversely affecting the ride and/or travel of the truck-heck maybe even improving it) I ask, what are ball joint spacers? How do they work? Do they work on 4wd trucks? Do they work well? And lastly, whats the best place to get 'em?

Google hasn't been much help.

Thanks in advance.
Ian

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leebee · 08-09-2004, 09:11 PM

try the search area, just type in ball joint spacers and it will do the rest.

lee

914runner · 08-10-2004, 12:05 AM

I don't think anyone makes BJ spacers for tacos or 3rd gen. runners because of how the upper BJ mounts to the upper control arm.

mt_goat · 08-10-2004, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 914runner

I don't think anyone makes BJ spacers for tacos or 3rd gen. runners because of how the upper BJ mounts to the upper control arm.

Yeah this is the only place in the US that I know of, http://www.sdori.com/ and Frank only makes them for 1st and 2nd gen trucks and 4runners. Actually it's 3rd gen trucks too, Tacos are considered 4th gen right?

They space the lower control arm down farther and allow the torsion bars adjustment to be softed up, giving a softer ride and more flex while at the same time giving lift too. The best of all worlds. So they work great for trucks with torsion bars, but Tacos don't have t-bars. That's not to say something similar couldn't be designed to work on a Taco.

Flamedx4 · 08-10-2004, 11:02 AM

That site should put up a pic or two showing what they look like installed maybe a before and after pic of the suspension? Why would I send them my money if I can't tell from the site what this spacer think actually is and does...

mt_goat · 08-10-2004, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamedx4

That site should put up a pic or two showing what they look like installed maybe a before and after pic of the suspension? Why would I send them my money if I can't tell from the site what this spacer think actually is and does...

I'm sure Frank will apprecate the helpful advice. He is a fulltime mechanical engineering student so I think SDORI is just a little thing on the side right now and having been thought engineering school myself, I'm sure he has little time right now for anything extra, like designing websites.

Flamedx4 · 08-10-2004, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mt_goat

I'm sure Frank will apprecate the helpful advice. He is a fulltime mechanical engineering student so I think SDORI is just a little thing on the side right now and having been thought engineering school myself, I'm sure he has little time right now for anything extra, like designing websites.

I imagine so, but I wasn't really criticizing the site. Just seems that if he wanted to sell these it might be real usefull if folks could see what they are. That nifty aluminum piece doesn't make me realize how it works or what benefit it gives.

BLKNBLU · 08-10-2004, 04:34 PM

Here's a link to a pretty good pictorial on Schaeffer's site

http://fastq.com/~sschaefer/san_dieg...olutions_.html

BeaterToyota · 08-10-2004, 04:39 PM

Click here for more info than you'll ever need about Frank's ball joint spacers. I have them on my junk and they work great. About 1.5" of lift and increased travel. They won't work on Tacomas though.

You might want to check out Cornfed Suspension for lift spacers for your Taco.

ldivinag · 08-10-2004, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianshoots

I ask, what are ball joint spacers? How do they work?
Ian

here's how Bj spacers work.

but you have to know how the torsion bar system works first.

think of a TB as a coil spring that's been extended. but the way TB works is by rotational forces, instead of compressing, like a regular spring.

by twisting a TB, it wants to twist back to it's original state. kinda like when someone twists your arm, you want them to let go.

now, there is a certain PRELOAD placed on the TB once it's is installed. otherwise, the suspension will be REALLY SOFT. it will collapse onto itself.

now, on a TB suspension system, the more you put load on it, the hard it gets to twist.

but guess what. in order to raise a TB suspension, you have to PUT MORE LOAD into it. cause as you know, when you "crank" the TB, that forces the upper and lower a-arms to point downwards. but now the TB is harder to twist to compress for normal suspension travel.

now it works the other way too. to make a normal TB suspension "softer" or more plush, you UNCRANK the TBs. but then you lower the ride height.

now, back the spacers.

with a spacer placed on the top a-arm (btw, i heard that toyota and only toyota uses the upper a-arm design ON A TRUCK, to mount the TB. ford, chevy, nissan, etc, all mount their TB to the LOWER a-arm where they are more easily damaged by rocks and stuff), you get the best of both worlds: you can UNCRANK the TBs but still maintain the HEIGHT. and that is the magic that you can get for $120...

ianshoots · 08-10-2004, 09:48 PM

Thanks for the explanation. Looks like I got the short answer I needed; they won't work for ME.

Thanks,
Ian

mt_goat · 08-11-2004, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianshoots

Thanks for the explanation. Looks like I got the short answer I needed; they won't work for ME.

Thanks,
Ian

I'll repeat,"That's not to say something similar couldn't be designed to work on a Taco". Post some pictures of your front end, maybe we can come up with a new product.

Flamedx4 · 08-11-2004, 10:22 AM

This turned out to be a good thread!

Anyone know if the alignment is changed? Having just got an alignment, be a shame to have to do it again...

OneTrickToy · 08-11-2004, 01:09 PM

Alignment does change. It will pull your tires in(toe in) and it will also give you a little positive camber. Definately get an alignment afterwards. I'm loving them on my truck. I'm actually running the same height as I did before, but with a softer front end and better articulation.

Flamedx4 · 08-11-2004, 01:17 PM

That's what I was thinking, put those on and lower the bars down to the same height I have now, should ride smoother and flex better! I just might do this.

mike_d · 08-11-2004, 02:21 PM

ldivinag, i'm going to nitpick a little here. i don't mean any disrespect, but i don't think you explained somethings right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldivinag

but guess what. in order to raise a TB suspension, you have to PUT MORE LOAD into it. cause as you know, when you "crank" the TB, that forces the upper and lower a-arms to point downwards. but now the TB is harder to twist to compress for normal suspension travel.

when you crank the TB, you're not adding any load, you're just moving the eqilribrium point so that the front of the truck sits higher.

using hook's law for a perfect spring: F=k(x-x0), where F is the force on the spring, x is the position of the spring, and x0 is the equilribirum point. k is a property of the spring, we can't change that. F is the force on the spring (i.e. the weight of the front of the truck), we can't change that. so x-x0 is how far the spring is deflected from it's equilribirum position. no matter how much (within reason) we crank the TB, we do not change x-x0. what we change is x0 itself, or the starting place for the spring.

cranking the TB doesn't stiffen the ride, all it does is cause the A-arms to be pushed down, and the front of the truck to be pushed up. this gives a cheap lift and increases upward travel, but (unless you change your bump stops) it decreases the droop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldivinag

with a spacer placed on the top a-arm (btw, i heard that toyota and only toyota uses the upper a-arm design ON A TRUCK, to mount the TB. ford, chevy, nissan, etc, all mount their TB to the LOWER a-arm where they are more easily damaged by rocks and stuff), you get the best of both worlds: you can UNCRANK the TBs but still maintain the HEIGHT. and that is the magic that you can get for $120...

what the space does is add space (hence the clever name

) between the lower and upper A-arm. it adds the space at the top, so that in effect it's pushing down on the lower A-arm, and giving some lift. as you said, toyota attaches the TB to the upper A-arb, since we're in effect messing with stuff below the A-arm, the TB and bump stops and everything remain uneffected. this way, we get a lift, but we don't sacrifice the droop to get it.

think of it this way. to lift the front end, we need to push the wheel down away from the truck. there are (at least) two ways to do this:

1a - we can push the whole upper A-arm down (cranking the TB). this is easy to do, but we lose droop because the upper A-arm can only go down so far

1b - we can put stiffer TBs on. This is like making a larger k in the F=k(x-x0) equation. so with the same F, the truck will sit higher. This is where you get the harsher ride that you were talking about. we also lose droop here.

2 - we can push the wheel down away from the upper A-arm (install BJ spacers). this is harder to do, but since we're not messing with the A-arm we don't lose any droop. The suspension parameters are basically unchanged.

mt_goat · 08-11-2004, 07:56 PM

I think the only problem with using Hook's law in this case is it is a linear equation. I believe the leverage on the t-bars, as applied by the wheels changes in a non-linear way. As the UCA swings through it's path of motion the leverage on the t-bars decreases, (the ride gets stiffer exponentially). Or at least it does with my weird Superlift UCA/ t-bar linkage.

ianshoots · 08-11-2004, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mt_goat

I'll repeat,"That's not to say something similar couldn't be designed to work on a Taco". Post some pictures of your front end, maybe we can come up with a new product.

Then we'll be rich (and by default, handsome!) !.

My digital camera pretty much sucks, but I'll try and jack it up this weekend and get some pics going.

ldivinag · 08-11-2004, 09:39 PM

here's what the diff between a COIL spring and TB.

a coil spring, in a suspension is at equilabirum when you put it into a vehicle.

as soon as you drop the vehicle back onto it's wheels, it compresses so you are at NEG EQ.

when you compress more, you are even at more NEG EQ. when you drop the wheel, the spring, if connected at top and bottom, can stretch. x>0.

with a TB. when you first put it on a vehicle, it is at x=0. as soon as you drop it, then x<0. for math sake, lets put x=-5 (normal height, vehicle not moving).

when you then compress, x=-10 (this at the point where the upper a-arm hits the bumpstop). and like any spring, the closer you get to it's MAX EQ, the harder it is.

but since a TB will never get x>0, that's where the diff lies.

again, this is assuming, (like my downey 26MM TBs) does not ship from the factory where x>0...

why the heck did you have to bring math into this...

mt_goat · 08-12-2004, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldivinag

here's what the diff between a COIL spring and TB.

a coil spring, in a suspension is at equilabirum when you put it into a vehicle.

as soon as you drop the vehicle back onto it's wheels, it compresses so you are at NEG EQ.

when you compress more, you are even at more NEG EQ. when you drop the wheel, the spring, if connected at top and bottom, can stretch. x>0.

with a TB. when you first put it on a vehicle, it is at x=0. as soon as you drop it, then x<0. for math sake, lets put x=-5 (normal height, vehicle not moving).

when you then compress, x=-10 (this at the point where the upper a-arm hits the bumpstop). and like any spring, the closer you get to it's MAX EQ, the harder it is.

but since a TB will never get x>0, that's where the diff lies.

again, this is assuming, (like my downey 26MM TBs) does not ship from the factory where x>0...

why the heck did you have to bring math into this...

So are you saying that a coil spring set-up like on the Tacos would stretch the spring longer than it's free lenght? I can't picture that happening on an IFS unless it had really heavy wheels and no limits of travel

I have seen it with a solid axle where leverage would help with the drooping and lots of travel to extend the spring.

I see the main difference between coil and t-bar springs being the linear motion VS rotational motion. The wheels are basically moving up and down in a linear path, with the coil set-up the springs are basiclly working the same path. With the t-bars you have to change the motion from the mostly linear motion (up and down path of the wheels) to the rotational torqueing of the t-bar. The t-bar gets the most flex when it is as close to unloaded as possible and when the force vector is at a 90 deg angle to the pivot point of the rotation. So as the control arm moves past that 90 deg angle to the force of the wheel motion the t-bar feels stiffer. At least that's my thinking on it anyway.

OneTrickToy · 08-12-2004, 09:27 AM

Why all this talk about linear and non-linear travel with the two types of springs. From what I understand, both coil springs and TB's are are the same thing. They both use torque. TB's are just easier to understand. You twist the bar end of story. Now coiled springs work the same way. You are twisting the metal bar every time weight is applied. I guess it's hard to explain, but if you look at the springs as they compress, maybe putting marks on the sides of the springs would help, you are twisting the metal with each compression. So the same equation should work for both springs.

As for the "stretching" of a spring. Shouldn't be a problem. It just depends on how much force is needed to extend the spring and how much force the weight of the front suspension can produce at droop. If you can twist the TB in one direction to compress it, then you can most definately twist it in the opposite direction to extend it.

Flamedx4 · 08-12-2004, 09:28 AM

Math is one thing, but many of us have discovered that in the real world when you crank up the ride height with the tbars the ride gets harsher.

I suppose it doesn't change the spring rate (because theoretically it doesn't preload the spring?) but perhaps it affects the deflection rate somehow - which affects compliance? I can tell you that my F150 was getting a bit wallowy in the corners and I cranked up the front about 1" and it stiffened it right up, and I can tell you that I cranked down my Yota about 1" and it made a HUGE difference in compliance - it was harsh as hell and now the suspension actually soaks up some road variations and the ride is almost decent - it was amazing how big a difference it made.

OneTrickToy · 08-12-2004, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamedx4

That's what I was thinking, put those on and lower the bars down to the same height I have now, should ride smoother and flex better! I just might do this.

You will still need an alignment even running at the same height. Because the pivot point is away from the center, anything added to the end of the A arm will change the length. Just take a 12" ruler and set it flat on the table with one end at a fixed point. Then add a mount(yes "mount") a 1.5" spacer of some sort to one side of the ruler. You need to mount it so that it is flush with the ruler to be able to see that actual change in geometry. At the same ride height there, the ball joint won't be level, it will now be on an angle. That's why you will need an alignment afterwards.

Flamedx4 · 08-12-2004, 09:47 AM

Yeah, I know the geometry on steering axis inclination and caster lead and camber angle, and the spacer would change the angles but only a teenie bit. I wonder if it changes it enough to need realigned though. I suppose it comes under the heading of "better to do it and be certain..." *sigh*

mt_goat · 08-12-2004, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneTrickToy

Why all this talk about linear and non-linear travel with the two types of springs. From what I understand, both coil springs and TB's are are the same thing. They both use torque. TB's are just easier to understand. You twist the bar end of story. Now coiled springs work the same way. You are twisting the metal bar every time weight is applied. I guess it's hard to explain, but if you look at the springs as they compress, maybe putting marks on the sides of the springs would help, you are twisting the metal with each compression. So the same equation should work for both springs..

Yes, a spring is a spring and Hooks law works fine for both if you're talking about just the spring. The diffence is how the force has to be applied to a t-bar. There has to be a lever arm to load the t-bar. And the angle of the force vector applied to the lever arm changes through the range of motion of the UCA. With a coil spring you can just sit on it to apply load to it and although not perfectly linear it is certainly closer to fitting the "ideal" spring model of Hooks law IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneTrickToy

If you can twist the TB in one direction to compress it, then you can most definately twist it in the opposite direction to extend it.

I agree, but I don't have enough down travel to even completely unload my t-bar much less put a reverse twist into it.

08-10-2004, 12:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
914runner Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tigard, Oregon Posts: 2,083	I don't think anyone makes BJ spacers for tacos or 3rd gen. runners because of how the upper BJ mounts to the upper control arm. __________________ 1997 Toyota 4Runner, 3.4L (5VZ-FE), 5-Speed (R150F), 4WD, 4.10's, 33's 1998 Toyota 4Runner, 3.4L (5VZ-FE), 5-Speed (R150F), 4WD, 4.10's, 33's 1991 Toyota 4Runner 4 Door, 3.4l (5VZ-FE), 5-Speed (R150F), 4WD, 32's, 4.10's

08-10-2004, 11:02 AM	#5 (permalink)
Flamedx4 Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA Posts: 3,285	That site should put up a pic or two showing what they look like installed maybe a before and after pic of the suspension? Why would I send them my money if I can't tell from the site what this spacer think actually is and does... __________________ All my Yotas are gone. Stuff to sell: http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.p...39#post1009839 -Phil

08-10-2004, 04:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
BLKNBLU Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Gilbert, Arizona Posts: 1,663	Here's a link to a pretty good pictorial on Schaeffer's site http://fastq.com/~sschaefer/san_dieg...olutions_.html __________________ 86 4Runner, custom Sonoran Steel rear bumper, 4Crawler 1" body lift, rock sliders from Richard Stubbs, rear Lockright, SAS w/ARB My build thread. http://www.yotatech.com/f66/blknblu-s-sac-155872/

08-10-2004, 04:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
BeaterToyota Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Warrenton, VA Posts: 644	Click here for more info than you'll ever need about Frank's ball joint spacers. I have them on my junk and they work great. About 1.5" of lift and increased travel. They won't work on Tacomas though. You might want to check out Cornfed Suspension for lift spacers for your Taco. __________________ Click here to buy rock crawling stickers and shirts Last edited by BeaterToyota; 08-10-2004 at 04:41 PM.

08-10-2004, 09:48 PM	#11 (permalink)
ianshoots Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Way down in the hole... Posts: 773	Thanks for the explanation. Looks like I got the short answer I needed; they won't work for ME. Thanks, Ian __________________ BOUGHT BACK AND CRUSHED: 97 3.4L Tacoma; Borla cat-back, 4" Deckplate, Amsoil foam air filter. Black Raider high rise cap w/Yakima bars. ebay Nerf bars. ARB bullbar w/Lightforce 170's on it and a Warn XD9000 in it, scratches. Tundra Coils W/Anders Eng Spacer, OME's, Wheelers 5 leaf pack , Sonoran Steel Diff Drop and some '01 Celica seats! Missed...

08-09-2004, 09:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
leebee Contributing Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: marlbank, canada Posts: 2,428	try the search area, just type in ball joint spacers and it will do the rest. lee

08-11-2004, 10:22 AM	#13 (permalink)
Flamedx4 Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA Posts: 3,285	This turned out to be a good thread! Anyone know if the alignment is changed? Having just got an alignment, be a shame to have to do it again... __________________ All my Yotas are gone. Stuff to sell: http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.p...39#post1009839 -Phil Last edited by Flamedx4; 08-11-2004 at 10:53 AM.

08-11-2004, 01:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
OneTrickToy Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 917	Alignment does change. It will pull your tires in(toe in) and it will also give you a little positive camber. Definately get an alignment afterwards. I'm loving them on my truck. I'm actually running the same height as I did before, but with a softer front end and better articulation. __________________ New Rig 2007 Double Cab Taco Sold 1991 300ZX Twin Turbo Stage 3+ Sold 1991 4x4 Pickup V6 5spd; 3" Rancho lift; 1.5" BJ Spacers; Rear Detroit

08-11-2004, 01:17 PM	#15 (permalink)
Flamedx4 Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA Posts: 3,285	That's what I was thinking, put those on and lower the bars down to the same height I have now, should ride smoother and flex better! I just might do this. __________________ All my Yotas are gone. Stuff to sell: http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.p...39#post1009839 -Phil

08-11-2004, 07:56 PM	#17 (permalink)
mt_goat Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State Posts: 8,863	I think the only problem with using Hook's law in this case is it is a linear equation. I believe the leverage on the t-bars, as applied by the wheels changes in a non-linear way. As the UCA swings through it's path of motion the leverage on the t-bars decreases, (the ride gets stiffer exponentially). Or at least it does with my weird Superlift UCA/ t-bar linkage. __________________ ~Dale~ 93 4X4 ext-cab, auto, SR5, 3.4 V6, supercharged, 2.1" pulley, URD fuel mods, Aquamist WI, IPT valve body mod, dual cases, 4" superlift front, Alcan springs rear, 33 BFG MT, ARB locked front & rear, 5.29 US Gears, RB 1" Body Lift, 1.5" ball joint spacers, manual hubs, TJM T-17, Warn m8000.

08-11-2004, 09:39 PM	#19 (permalink)
ldivinag Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: N37 39* W122 3* Posts: 1,428	here's what the diff between a COIL spring and TB. a coil spring, in a suspension is at equilabirum when you put it into a vehicle. as soon as you drop the vehicle back onto it's wheels, it compresses so you are at NEG EQ. when you compress more, you are even at more NEG EQ. when you drop the wheel, the spring, if connected at top and bottom, can stretch. x>0. with a TB. when you first put it on a vehicle, it is at x=0. as soon as you drop it, then x<0. for math sake, lets put x=-5 (normal height, vehicle not moving). when you then compress, x=-10 (this at the point where the upper a-arm hits the bumpstop). and like any spring, the closer you get to it's MAX EQ, the harder it is. but since a TB will never get x>0, that's where the diff lies. again, this is assuming, (like my downey 26MM TBs) does not ship from the factory where x>0... why the heck did you have to bring math into this... __________________ leo d. stock 90 4runner

08-12-2004, 09:27 AM	#21 (permalink)
OneTrickToy Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 917	Why all this talk about linear and non-linear travel with the two types of springs. From what I understand, both coil springs and TB's are are the same thing. They both use torque. TB's are just easier to understand. You twist the bar end of story. Now coiled springs work the same way. You are twisting the metal bar every time weight is applied. I guess it's hard to explain, but if you look at the springs as they compress, maybe putting marks on the sides of the springs would help, you are twisting the metal with each compression. So the same equation should work for both springs. As for the "stretching" of a spring. Shouldn't be a problem. It just depends on how much force is needed to extend the spring and how much force the weight of the front suspension can produce at droop. If you can twist the TB in one direction to compress it, then you can most definately twist it in the opposite direction to extend it. __________________ New Rig 2007 Double Cab Taco Sold 1991 300ZX Twin Turbo Stage 3+ Sold 1991 4x4 Pickup V6 5spd; 3" Rancho lift; 1.5" BJ Spacers; Rear Detroit

08-12-2004, 09:28 AM	#22 (permalink)
Flamedx4 Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA Posts: 3,285	Math is one thing, but many of us have discovered that in the real world when you crank up the ride height with the tbars the ride gets harsher. I suppose it doesn't change the spring rate (because theoretically it doesn't preload the spring?) but perhaps it affects the deflection rate somehow - which affects compliance? I can tell you that my F150 was getting a bit wallowy in the corners and I cranked up the front about 1" and it stiffened it right up, and I can tell you that I cranked down my Yota about 1" and it made a HUGE difference in compliance - it was harsh as hell and now the suspension actually soaks up some road variations and the ride is almost decent - it was amazing how big a difference it made. __________________ All my Yotas are gone. Stuff to sell: http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.p...39#post1009839 -Phil

08-12-2004, 09:47 AM	#24 (permalink)
Flamedx4 Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA Posts: 3,285	Yeah, I know the geometry on steering axis inclination and caster lead and camber angle, and the spacer would change the angles but only a teenie bit. I wonder if it changes it enough to need realigned though. I suppose it comes under the heading of "better to do it and be certain..." sigh __________________ All my Yotas are gone. Stuff to sell: http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.p...39#post1009839 -Phil

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