Good idea? Bad idea? Cheap Blower intake.

YotaTruck1986 · 07-30-2004, 08:23 PM

Ok, I know this may sound strange maybe even stupid, but here it goes: I was told about this SpiralMax intake kit, and it made me think - if this system could work, like a very small pathetic turbo charger, then maybe a larger system could work. What if an electric leaf blower could be modified and used in the same principle? Could a filter be connected to the electric blower intake, then the blower connected to the throttle body where my old intake used to connect? The blower would have to run through a switch, then through a fuse, and finally to a converter. Could I be forgetting anything bad that could happen? Or have I stumbled on a cheap electric turbo system.

Also, since I have EFI, Would the electric blower be sucking to much power from the battery? Thanks for any replies.

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YotaTruck1986 · 07-30-2004, 10:13 PM

I addition to the above post, I've thought of some more ideas. For saftey, I figured I should add an additional intake and filter incase the electric blower were to break when driving, the engine could still recieve air. I'm not sure how much pressure would form when the throttle was closed because the blower would be constantly running. I thought of adding some type of blow off valve but figured the air would flow out the second intake port and filter if the pressure increased enough. Below if a rough sketch of what the system could look like. If anyone has any suggestions, comments, or warnings, please post. Thanks.

wrx2yota · 07-30-2004, 10:17 PM

a few years ago, there was something called the "e-ram".. it was a small blower that fit in line with the intake tube. A friend had it on an EFI Prelude. Made 27whp, but after about 30-45 minutes of use, it killed the battery.

I guess if you have one with a decent motor that doesn't hog juice, should be ok. I don't think its gonna be enough of an increase to cause the motor to have an adverse effects... but thats just me.

okidoc · 07-30-2004, 10:28 PM

I have heard scary stories about these fragging in the intake and all the little bits have no choice but to go sit on your pistons and valves.

jimbo74 · 07-30-2004, 10:30 PM

its crap... aint going to work..... its the same idea as using a bilge pump from a boat.... it wont flow enough cfm and will cuase otehr problems as well....

mike_d · 07-30-2004, 10:30 PM

actually my brother and i are in the middle of planning something like that. however, a leaf blower probably won't work. our plan is to take the roots blower from a real supercharger and then run it with an electric motor. this way we could switch it as necessary, and also have control over how much boost there is. that way you could turn it off when you want to save gas, and turn it on when you want to go really fast.

the reason a leaf blower won't work is that it doesn't pump enough air. let's go with the 3.0 3vze, but all the numbers will be close for other engines.

how much air do we need:
3.0L at 3000 rpm = 9000 liters per minute = 150 liters per second

regular atmosphere (at sea level) is 15psi, let's say we want 8 lbs of boost, so that's an extra 50% more air so we'd really need about 225 liters per second. and that's only at 3000 rpm. double that at redline (450 Lps!)

i doubt you're going to be able to find a leaf blower to pump that much air (if you want to compare specifiactions on leaf blowers, 450 Lps is about 6800 cfm)

gwhayduke · 07-31-2004, 03:52 AM

I think what you're looking for is free horsepower..when you need it...which is pretty much what a turbo gives you. By taking waste gases and using them to power a turbine, which drives a second turbine designed to compress the intake charge.

I say go to the junkyard, get a turbine off of something comparable, do your experimenting, and have a little fun. Ditch the lawnboy.

shamrockmac5 · 07-31-2004, 04:21 AM

I'm sorry but the whole electric blower sounds a little too "shade tree" to me guys.

the_supernerd · 08-05-2004, 02:20 AM

How about a gas blower? It would not drain the battery. You could also put a bigger engine on it and gear it up to make it move more air.

splitz · 08-05-2004, 04:19 AM

Naw, just use the Turbonator!

bamachem · 08-05-2004, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_supernerd

How about a gas blower? It would not drain the battery. You could also put a bigger engine on it and gear it up to make it move more air.

Isn't that the same thing as using your GAS engine that's already under your hood and running the blower w/ a belt? Step away from the wacky weed and put the blower down, son...

grams72 · 08-05-2004, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimabena74

its crap... aint going to work..... its the same idea as using a bilge pump from a boat.... it wont flow enough cfm and will cuase otehr problems as well....

I'll second that one.

STEP AWAY FROM THE BONG

MTL_4runner · 08-05-2004, 06:32 AM

A leaf blower can't build enough psi to be viable in that application not to mention they are horribly inefficient at pumping air (yes they work but look at the amps they are drawing to do it). The e-ram was the closest to an electrical supercharger that you can get and it only produced a few psi of boost but used so much juice it would roast most batteries and could only be used in short bursts because the alternator can't even get close to keeping up with the current demand.

I am sad to say that even a modified roots or centrifical blower will not be as efficient as a mechanically driven one simply because electrical motor are for the most part very inefficient at doing work. Current AC and DC motor technology and physics are working against you unfortunately.

tulsa_97SR5 · 08-05-2004, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTL_4runner

A leaf blower can't build enough psi to be viable in that application not to mention they are horribly inefficient at pumping air

Had a friend in high school try something similar, sounded crazy when he ran his accord with his homemade "blower", like it was really doing some good. Thinking back, the cylinder was sucking air way faster than the fan could push it, causing the fan to spin way faster than the elec motor could push it. Really it was just creating a restriction, and making some noise.

sort of related question that this thread got me to think of... is the air really flowing (being pulled) through the intake at a steady rate? It seems like their will be one cylinder with the intake vale open sucking in air MOST of the time, but not quite all the time. I'm sure the number of cylinders has something to do with this too.

mike_d · 08-05-2004, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tulsa_97SR5

sort of related question that this thread got me to think of... is the air really flowing (being pulled) through the intake at a steady rate? It seems like their will be one cylinder with the intake vale open sucking in air MOST of the time, but not quite all the time. I'm sure the number of cylinders has something to do with this too.

with at least 4 cylinders, you'll always have at least one cylinder in the intake stroke (of course this assume equal spacing in the firing). if the air was massless, then you may be able to notice different speeds because the cylinder will suck air in at different rates in the inake stroke (very slow at the ends of the stroke, and fastest in the middle). but since the air has mass, it will be flowing at mostly the same speed all the time. it's interesting to note, that on the 22re all four injectors are fired at the same time and the fuel just 'sits' in the intake until the valves open. (in the 3vze there the 3 injectors on each side are fired at the same time). so this leads me to beleive, that even on the scale of one cylinder, the air in the intake will be flowing at a constant rate (otherwise the fuel would probably fall due to gravity).

here's a quick and dirty calculation to show that the air most likely is moving at a constant speed.

assumptions: 2.4L 22re at 3000 rpm (numbers will be the same order of magnitude for just about any engine running at a normal speed)

2.4L @ 3000 rpm means that the engine is sucking in 120L/s of air.

120L/s of air is 120,000 cm^3 of air. The cross section of the intake is about 100cm^2 so that means that the air is flowing in the intake at about 1200cm/s (27mph!)

lets make the assumption that the air is stopped and then needs to be accelerated to 1200cm/s in the time of 1 intake stroke and calculate the forces required to do that.

3000rpm=50hz or only .02sec per revolution. however, only 1/4 of the time is intake so that's realy .005sec for the whole intake time.

so we need to calculate how much force is required to accelerate 120L of air to 1200cm/s in .005sec

120L of air is about 80g (.080kg)

the acceleration is 1200cm/s/.005s or 24000cm/s^2 or 240m/s^2

F=ma = .080gk*240m/s^2 = 192N or about 43 pounds

what all of this means is that if the air needed to be accelerated all the time that the engine would have apply 43 pounds of force on the air (and then when the air stopped it would put 43 pounds of force on the engine). in my 22re the intake is mounted across the front of the engine, that means that there would be 43 pounds of force going back and forth sideways on the truck. i think you could imagine the kind of violent shaking that would occur if you pushed sideways on the truck with 43 pounds of force 3000 times per minute.

i think that this shows that it's very likely that the air is at a constant flow.

MTL_4runner · 08-05-2004, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_d

with at least 4 cylinders, you'll always have at least one cylinder in the intake stroke (of course this assume equal spacing in the firing). if the air was massless, then you may be able to notice different speeds because the cylinder will suck air in at different rates in the inake stroke (very slow at the ends of the stroke, and fastest in the middle). but since the air has mass, it will be flowing at mostly the same speed all the time. it's interesting to note, that on the 22re all four injectors are fired at the same time and the fuel just 'sits' in the intake until the valves open. (in the 3vze there the 3 injectors on each side are fired at the same time). so this leads me to beleive, that even on the scale of one cylinder, the air in the intake will be flowing at a constant rate (otherwise the fuel would probably fall due to gravity).

here's a quick and dirty calculation to show that the air most likely is moving at a constant speed.

assumptions: 2.4L 22re at 3000 rpm (numbers will be the same order of magnitude for just about any engine running at a normal speed)

2.4L @ 3000 rpm means that the engine is sucking in 120L/s of air.

120L/s of air is 120,000 cm^3 of air. The cross section of the intake is about 100cm^2 so that means that the air is flowing in the intake at about 1200cm/s (27mph!)

lets make the assumption that the air is stopped and then needs to be accelerated to 1200cm/s in the time of 1 intake stroke and calculate the forces required to do that.

3000rpm=50hz or only .02sec per revolution. however, only 1/4 of the time is intake so that's realy .005sec for the whole intake time.

so we need to calculate how much force is required to accelerate 120L of air to 1200cm/s in .005sec

120L of air is about 80g (.080kg)

the acceleration is 1200cm/s/.005s or 24000cm/s^2 or 240m/s^2

F=ma = .080gk*240m/s^2 = 192N or about 43 pounds

what all of this means is that if the air needed to be accelerated all the time that the engine would have apply 43 pounds of force on the air (and then when the air stopped it would put 43 pounds of force on the engine). in my 22re the intake is mounted across the front of the engine, that means that there would be 43 pounds of force going back and forth sideways on the truck. i think you could imagine the kind of violent shaking that would occur if you pushed sideways on the truck with 43 pounds of force 3000 times per minute.

i think that this shows that it's very likely that the air is at a constant flow.

Holy smokes I feel like I am back in Fluid Dynamics class again.

Good explanation of the stuff tho!

jimbo74 · 08-06-2004, 10:53 PM

shade tree is one thing, standing under the hemp plant smoking it is another

YotaTruck1986 · 08-06-2004, 10:58 PM

THIS POST WILL NOT DIE!

homemade toy · 01-15-2008, 08:42 PM

I have a 89 4x4 pickup 3.0L/v6 with t-bird 3.4 super charger.new custom eng $8.000/later Im getting 300/hp on the dyno. super charger and hardware cost me about $ 1.000

Dare44 · 01-15-2008, 08:45 PM

maybe u could incorperate a gas blower into the throttle so when u gun it, it guns the blower so when u idle it idles?

ciscojay · 01-15-2008, 08:53 PM

All I ask for is pics...and some of whatever you're on! Call mythbusters too...they can save you the trouble and $$$.

Dare44 · 01-15-2008, 09:04 PM

im just thinking out loud, u could hook a pulley to the motor that spins up the air and forces it in, o wait thats been done lol

AxleIke · 01-15-2008, 09:50 PM

Holy Good GRIEF.

What was a stupid thread 3.5 years ago is still a stupid thread now.

Where do you people dig this crap up?

CyMoN · 01-16-2008, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxleIke

Holy Good GRIEF.

What was a stupid thread 3.5 years ago is still a stupid thread now.

Where do you people dig this crap up?

lol I think there should be a policy if someone brings up a old thread then later makes a post that has been covered hundreds of times they get banned.

the reason I say this is they have taken the time to look back 3 or 4 years they should have read every thread that WOULD COVER THE BASICS like what lift and what tires what MPG should I get for a 4x4 the infamous clunk or creek from the front of my truck when I turn the steering wheel full right or left... and the list go's on and on

Whitey13 · 01-16-2008, 05:38 AM

There are videos of people doing this all over the 'net

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xwkSr60fk0g

07-30-2004, 10:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
YotaTruck1986 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 498	I addition to the above post, I've thought of some more ideas. For saftey, I figured I should add an additional intake and filter incase the electric blower were to break when driving, the engine could still recieve air. I'm not sure how much pressure would form when the throttle was closed because the blower would be constantly running. I thought of adding some type of blow off valve but figured the air would flow out the second intake port and filter if the pressure increased enough. Below if a rough sketch of what the system could look like. If anyone has any suggestions, comments, or warnings, please post. Thanks. __________________ - Jonathan 1986 Toyota Pickup The Truck (Picture) My Music Last edited by YotaTruck1986; 07-30-2004 at 10:16 PM.

07-30-2004, 10:28 PM	#4 (permalink)
okidoc Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 120	I have heard scary stories about these fragging in the intake and all the little bits have no choice but to go sit on your pistons and valves. __________________ 1995 3.SLOW 4X4 AUTO SR5 STOCK AND MORE RELIABLE THAN MY OLD JEEP

07-30-2004, 10:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
mike_d Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mountains outside of Boulder Posts: 612	actually my brother and i are in the middle of planning something like that. however, a leaf blower probably won't work. our plan is to take the roots blower from a real supercharger and then run it with an electric motor. this way we could switch it as necessary, and also have control over how much boost there is. that way you could turn it off when you want to save gas, and turn it on when you want to go really fast. the reason a leaf blower won't work is that it doesn't pump enough air. let's go with the 3.0 3vze, but all the numbers will be close for other engines. how much air do we need: 3.0L at 3000 rpm = 9000 liters per minute = 150 liters per second regular atmosphere (at sea level) is 15psi, let's say we want 8 lbs of boost, so that's an extra 50% more air so we'd really need about 225 liters per second. and that's only at 3000 rpm. double that at redline (450 Lps!) i doubt you're going to be able to find a leaf blower to pump that much air (if you want to compare specifiactions on leaf blowers, 450 Lps is about 6800 cfm) __________________ mike '89 4Runner DLX: 2" OME rear springs, 1 5/8" RB BJ spacers, Diff Drop, 32" MT/R. '90 4Runner SR5: Stock Suspension, 32" MT/R . '07 4Runner SR5: 2" OME Rear Springs, Donahoe Coil Overs, Total Chaos UCA, 275/70-17 MT/R. '76 Jeep CJ-5: 4" Lift, 33" BFG MT. '87 Saab 900S: All stock '99 Subaru Legacy GT: All stock

07-31-2004, 03:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
gwhayduke Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: El Paso, TX Posts: 1,576	I think what you're looking for is free horsepower..when you need it...which is pretty much what a turbo gives you. By taking waste gases and using them to power a turbine, which drives a second turbine designed to compress the intake charge. I say go to the junkyard, get a turbine off of something comparable, do your experimenting, and have a little fun. Ditch the lawnboy. __________________ '99 4Runner SR5 4WD, 5-SPEED. Abzug's vehicle for urban expeditions, navigating flash floods and debris flows (try 12-15 inches of rain in one week). It always gets her home. '95 4Runner LIMITED 4WD, 5-SPEED, over a quarter million on the original 3vze & headgaskets. TRD heavy duty clutch, TRD heavy duty flywheel, OME 900 springs and shocks. This old gal has gotten me out into the field, and back for 8 years, never failed to start or gotten stuck.

07-31-2004, 04:21 AM	#8 (permalink)
shamrockmac5 Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bend, Oregon Posts: 55	I'm sorry but the whole electric blower sounds a little too "shade tree" to me guys. __________________ 90 SR5 fully rebuilt V6 3.0 5spd/Downey K&N intake kit/ISR/Downey headers/Magnaflow highflow Cat/Spintech Muffler/NWOR 1&1/2" lift rear springs,Torsion Bars,Steering Stabilizer/Edelbrock IAS Shocks/Poly front&rear bushings/Bushwacker fender flares/Genuine steel Nerf bars (Brush & taillight guards removed)/weatherguard ventshades/TRD Offroad body emblems/Body stripes Removed/Aluminum Rims/33x12.50 BFG AT's/Aisin Manual Hubs/4:88's in both diffs/Flexalite elect. Fan Conversion.

07-30-2004, 10:17 PM	#3 (permalink)
wrx2yota Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: cincinnati, ohio Posts: 12	a few years ago, there was something called the "e-ram".. it was a small blower that fit in line with the intake tube. A friend had it on an EFI Prelude. Made 27whp, but after about 30-45 minutes of use, it killed the battery. I guess if you have one with a decent motor that doesn't hog juice, should be ok. I don't think its gonna be enough of an increase to cause the motor to have an adverse effects... but thats just me.

07-30-2004, 10:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
jimbo74 Banned Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Nor*Cal Posts: 6,582	its crap... aint going to work..... its the same idea as using a bilge pump from a boat.... it wont flow enough cfm and will cuase otehr problems as well....

08-05-2004, 02:20 AM	#9 (permalink)
the_supernerd Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sonora, CA Posts: 1,138	How about a gas blower? It would not drain the battery. You could also put a bigger engine on it and gear it up to make it move more air.

08-05-2004, 04:19 AM	#10 (permalink)
splitz Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 165	Naw, just use the Turbonator! __________________ 94 V6 4X4 PU - currently full of H20

08-05-2004, 06:32 AM	#13 (permalink)
MTL_4runner Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 8,807	A leaf blower can't build enough psi to be viable in that application not to mention they are horribly inefficient at pumping air (yes they work but look at the amps they are drawing to do it). The e-ram was the closest to an electrical supercharger that you can get and it only produced a few psi of boost but used so much juice it would roast most batteries and could only be used in short bursts because the alternator can't even get close to keeping up with the current demand. I am sad to say that even a modified roots or centrifical blower will not be as efficient as a mechanically driven one simply because electrical motor are for the most part very inefficient at doing work. Current AC and DC motor technology and physics are working against you unfortunately. __________________ - Jamie 1996 4Runner SR5 4X4 Auto Deckplate Mod, Hayden Tranny Cooler, Amsoil Air Filter, OME 881/906 N86C/N91SC Lift Best OBD II scan tool I have used!. .....and I am AMERICAN!

08-06-2004, 10:53 PM	#17 (permalink)
jimbo74 Banned Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Nor*Cal Posts: 6,582	shade tree is one thing, standing under the hemp plant smoking it is another

08-06-2004, 10:58 PM	#18 (permalink)
YotaTruck1986 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 498	THIS POST WILL NOT DIE! __________________ - Jonathan 1986 Toyota Pickup The Truck (Picture) My Music

01-15-2008, 08:42 PM	#19 (permalink)
homemade toy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ladner bc canada Posts: 4	I have a 89 4x4 pickup 3.0L/v6 with t-bird 3.4 super charger.new custom eng $8.000/later Im getting 300/hp on the dyno. super charger and hardware cost me about $ 1.000

01-15-2008, 08:45 PM	#20 (permalink)
Dare44 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: grass valley, ca Posts: 910	maybe u could incorperate a gas blower into the throttle so when u gun it, it guns the blower so when u idle it idles? __________________ 1997 Toyota 4x4 SR5 4runner 3.4 auto Toytec 3 inch coil spring Lift Custom Front bumper Trail Gear Rock Sliders Modified Stock skid plates Maxxis Bighorn M/T's / Goodyear Wrangler TD's Amp Custom Rims Cobra CB, 5ft Firestik http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3008195 Near Future List Rear Bumper Lockers 1st Gen Roll Bar Winning the Lottery?

01-15-2008, 08:53 PM	#21 (permalink)
ciscojay Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 155	All I ask for is pics...and some of whatever you're on! Call mythbusters too...they can save you the trouble and $$$. __________________ ~Jay 1998 3.4L 5spd Desert Dune Supercharged URD fuel upgrades // URD 2.1" // AMSOIL TS-115 // SPEC Stage 2+ // PP +1" // Magnaflow 24" // 2.5" custom catback // Airaid MIT // Scoop!

01-15-2008, 09:04 PM	#22 (permalink)
Dare44 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: grass valley, ca Posts: 910	im just thinking out loud, u could hook a pulley to the motor that spins up the air and forces it in, o wait thats been done lol __________________ 1997 Toyota 4x4 SR5 4runner 3.4 auto Toytec 3 inch coil spring Lift Custom Front bumper Trail Gear Rock Sliders Modified Stock skid plates Maxxis Bighorn M/T's / Goodyear Wrangler TD's Amp Custom Rims Cobra CB, 5ft Firestik http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3008195 Near Future List Rear Bumper Lockers 1st Gen Roll Bar Winning the Lottery?

01-15-2008, 09:50 PM	#23 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,887	Holy Good GRIEF. What was a stupid thread 3.5 years ago is still a stupid thread now. Where do you people dig this crap up? __________________ 1987 Mutant 4runner\|Slightly Modified\|Lacking general build direction -Lifts and Tires look cool at the Mall, Lockers and Gears look cool on the trail. -Internet Nice Guy

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