deep water

Mikronized · 01-08-2004, 01:42 PM

Muddy puddles can sure be deceiving when it comes to size...

Cause last night I figured I'd take a friend on a little show off cruse through a large puddle near his house. I started through the puddle and didn't realize that I was riding on the ridge in the middle of the tracks... about half way through I fell down into the tracks (sorry no pics). As soon as I fell into the hole I just punched it and powered my way out.
I have a have a 4inch lift and 33s and the water still came up the bottom of my doors.. I don't have extended diff breathers so I'm wondering if I could have done any damage? Everything seems like it rides fine but I still wonder... also how deep is too deep when it comes to fording water?

thanks
Joel

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instntset · 01-08-2004, 01:43 PM

probably would be a good idea to get your differential fluid changed as it is contaminated now. This will avoid damage down the road.

WATRD · 01-08-2004, 01:49 PM

It's prolly not a bad idea to dump your diffs, but the tranny and xfer should be fine.

Then, extend the breathers!

PoBoy · 01-08-2004, 01:50 PM

Also might want to check your air filter and make sure its dry...

Stay out of the water :pat:

Mikronized · 01-08-2004, 01:59 PM

I checked the air filter already and I know it's dry, so no prob there

GoudyMan · 01-08-2004, 07:16 PM

if the dif breather is doing its job ok you should be fine...... its not supposed to let water in, but when it gets messed up (and sometimes does over time) then you can run into problems... i think you are ok... but if your gonna do it again extend the breather .

hillbilly · 01-09-2004, 06:04 AM

I agree with GoudyMan. If your puddle jumping was a one time deal, I wouldn't worry about it. Especially since its been pretty cold lately. If functioning properly, the breather would likely only take in water when submerged if the diff was pretty hot BEFORE entering the water. If the diff was hot, the water would instantly cool the diff, likely causing a decrease in air pressure, at which point the diff breather would try to take in air (or water if submerged) to equalized the pressure. If your diff was relatively cool (compared to the water temp), you're probably fine.

If it eases your mind and you want to play it safe, change the fluid (that's always a good thing).

Now, if your breathers malfunctioning, that's another story...

TStango · 01-09-2004, 08:15 AM

Quote:

If it eases your mind and you want to play it safe, change the fluid (that's always a good thing).

Good idea.

http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.p...threadid=23851

mt_goat · 01-09-2004, 09:34 AM

It is a lot cheaper to change the gear oil, than gears and bearings.

Bumpin' Yota · 01-09-2004, 09:44 AM

agreed the 14-16 bux to change the fluid and breathers is worth the piece of mind.

Believe me having a shop replace your rear gears and replace all the bearings and seals will run a good grand.....I know Im going through that now.

4runner4life2 · 01-09-2004, 10:18 AM

hey heres a question for everybody
I just got my 02 4 runner and a week of having it i went with my dad and we went through some water, it was pretty deep but the puddle had a solid rock bottom. see pictures on my site here my dad is an experienced wheeler and as soon as we got home we dried out our engines and after they were all dry hosed down the under carriage , engine compartment, and all essential parts. i have never heard of having to change the diff fluid after going through water. where is the diff breather and how can i check to see if it is ok? it was a pretty cool day so the above post about having it too hot probably doesnt apply to me. I just want to know what it is and how to check.
thanks
andy

mt_goat · 01-09-2004, 10:31 AM

The breather is right on top of the diff. It something to worry about on anyday cold or hot. The worst is when your gears are hot and your submurge your hot diff into cold water, the hot air inside the diff cools rapidly and creates a vacuum inside the diff. This vacuum sucks the water into the diff unless your breather is higher than the water. Many people, myself included, have extended the breather up higher with a hose.

Here is a link http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/minutemods/breather/

Highland Runner · 01-09-2004, 10:42 AM

If your breather valve is working properly you should be OK. The stock breather is designed to aways have some positive pressure in the diff. Even if the diff i quickly cooled. I have removed and checked the ones in all theToyotas I've owned. There is always a little hiss when I open the fill plugs if the diff is warm.
I camp a lot in the summer and have to cross a river that ranges from 16-36 deep. I check the fluid whenever I make the trip. I was draining and refilling for a while but never ever saw water in the fluid. Remember, these trucks are used and abused in harse conditions all over the world. I think the designers thought ahead on the valve design knowing people would be going through a lot of water. It never hurts to change the fluid though. See the thread about 4-Runner in the drink for pics of me going through the river where I camp.

mt_goat · 01-09-2004, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Highland Runner
If your breather valve is working properly you should be OK. The stock breather is designed to aways have some positive pressure in the diff. Even if the diff i quickly cooled. I have removed and checked the ones in all theToyotas I've owned. There is always a little hiss when I open the fill plugs if the diff is warm.
I camp a lot in the summer and have to cross a river that ranges from 16-36 deep. I check the fluid whenever I make the trip. I was draining and refilling for a while but never ever saw water in the fluid. Remember, these trucks are used and abused in harse conditions all over the world. I think the designers thought ahead on the valve design knowing people would be going through a lot of water. It never hurts to change the fluid though. See the thread about 4-Runner in the drink for pics of me going through the river where I camp.

I think if they had thought about it very much they would have put the breather up higher off of the ground.

I also don't think it is possible to always have positive pressure in the diff. For example, let's say it is 90 deg outside when you fill your diff with gear oil. The next day the temp drops to 70 deg, how is there going to be positive pressure inside the diff? Granted the gears will heat up when you drive and increase the pressure in the diff. But once the pressure gets too high the breather will let off the excess to keep the pressure from getting too high right? Then when it cools down by submerging it into cold water how is there going to be a positive pressure inside?

Robinhood150 · 01-09-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Highland Runner
There is always a little hiss when I open the fill plugs if the diff is warm.

That hiss is probably the vacuum inside equalizing, not the other way around. When you open your fill plugs do you notice gear oil spraying out (I don't mean a lot, maybe a fine mist), if not then there's probably a vacuum inside.

WATRD · 01-09-2004, 11:50 AM

If the rig has been driven, there is almost always a vacuum in the diff. On my breather write-up page, I show a photo of the stock breather taken apart and you can see how it's a one way valve.

In theory, the breather will outgas gradually as the diff heats up, then the valve is supposed to seal in the event that water pressure appears against the outside of the breather or if the diff cools down.

It's at the bottom of the page at: http://www.wattora.com/mods/diffbreather/

My experience was somewhat less satisfactory. I wheeled all day, resulting in a vacuum in the diff. When I plunged into a stream crossing, it would seem that a small piece of something kept the breather from closing entirely. Fortunately, when I got home from the run, I checked the diff juice. It was a nasty mix of water and oil that looked like a poorly mixed chocolate milkshake.

The stock breather location is fine for street use. But, like so many things on our rigs, it can be improved for off road travel. The engineers DO know what they are doing, but they design the vehicles for the 99% of buyers who will either never use them off road or will only use them in light duty off pavement travel.

All it takes is for a speck of gack to keep the breather from sealing well and you will have the same milkshake I had.

mt_goat · 01-09-2004, 12:18 PM

Nice write-up Rob. That is a good idea putting the old breather at the end of the extension tube.

FirstToy · 01-09-2004, 01:00 PM

The stock diff breather location is actually pretty good, I found out.
Unless you extend and stick the breather through the gas fill rubber seal, there is no good place to put it (at least on the 4th gen).

Everywhere else will get spray from the rear tires directly onto the breather unless it is in the stock location or in the gas fill location.

mt_goat · 01-09-2004, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FirstToy
The stock diff breather location is actually pretty good, I found out.
Unless you extend and stick the breather through the gas fill rubber seal, there is no good place to put it (at least on the 4th gen).

Everywhere else will get spray from the rear tires directly onto the breather unless it is in the stock location or in the gas fill location.

Mine rear breather goes up to the bottom of my bed and then hangs down about 4 inches, that will let any spray drain out. My front breather goes up next to the battery. I guess you could run the rear tube up front, hose is cheap.

Highland Runner · 01-09-2004, 01:21 PM

Yea the air is coming out when I open it up. When the diff is warm there should always be positive pressure in it. I put soapy water around the threads to see for sure. If the diff is cold I'm sure it would be a slight vacuum. After my last river crossing the diff was still slighty warm to the touch, so I figured must be OK.
I took my valve apart also to see if it was dirty, but it was clean. Very simple and I thought cheap the way it is crimped together, but it works. I also remove the breather and blow high pressure air through on a regular basis to keep clean. I'll get around to extending mine sometime using Rob's write up. Until then I'll keep checking the fluid after submersion.

FirstToy · 01-09-2004, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mt_goat
Mine rear breather goes up to the bottom of my bed and then hangs down about 4 inches, that will let any spray drain out. My front breather goes up next to the battery. I guess you could run the rear tube up front, hose is cheap.

If I did that, the breather would be at the same or lower location than stock.

Routing to the front sounds good. maybe when I decide to change that again I'll put it with the others in the engine bay...

4x4CPOSEADOG · 01-09-2004, 01:33 PM

Wow! Good write-up by WATRD. Good Job! Now, do you have any write up for the front differential? How do you guys extend the breather on the front diff? Any idea?

Noel

WATRD · 01-09-2004, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4x4CPOSEADOG
Wow! Good write-up by WATRD. Good Job! Now, do you have any write up for the front differential? How do you guys extend the breather on the front diff? Any idea?

Noel

The front is really easy. This from a Tacoma, so you mileage may vary.

The front diff breather is already extended and is mounted on the inside of the drivers side fender, about half way up the wheel well indentation. It's high enough for moderate use where the water level doesn't get higher than your door sills or so. If you want to extend it, just add some hose to the existing set up with a double barbed connector and a couple of hose clamps.

01-08-2004, 01:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
instntset Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 327	probably would be a good idea to get your differential fluid changed as it is contaminated now. This will avoid damage down the road. __________________ -Brandon- 95 4x4Runner 5 speed- Gasoline in the oil- SOLD 9/05

01-08-2004, 01:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	It's prolly not a bad idea to dump your diffs, but the tranny and xfer should be fine. Then, extend the breathers! __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search

01-08-2004, 01:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
PoBoy Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 2,000	Also might want to check your air filter and make sure its dry... Stay out of the water :pat: __________________ So I sold my '96 4Runner to get married...I was sad. BUT NOT ANY MORE! Check out my 1985 4Runner with 32,xxx miles! PoBoyTech.Net

01-08-2004, 01:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mikronized Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 602	I checked the air filter already and I know it's dry, so no prob there __________________ '94 4runner : soon-ish to be V8'd, SAS'd, lock'd and bumper'd '04 Xcab Tacoma 4x4 TRD : Stock Last edited by Mikronized; 01-08-2004 at 02:04 PM.

01-09-2004, 06:04 AM	#7 (permalink)
hillbilly Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lat: 40° 47' 01" Long:-78° 00' 58" Posts: 756	I agree with GoudyMan. If your puddle jumping was a one time deal, I wouldn't worry about it. Especially since its been pretty cold lately. If functioning properly, the breather would likely only take in water when submerged if the diff was pretty hot BEFORE entering the water. If the diff was hot, the water would instantly cool the diff, likely causing a decrease in air pressure, at which point the diff breather would try to take in air (or water if submerged) to equalized the pressure. If your diff was relatively cool (compared to the water temp), you're probably fine. If it eases your mind and you want to play it safe, change the fluid (that's always a good thing). Now, if your breathers malfunctioning, that's another story... __________________ -Scott '01 Black SR5 4x4 w/ Black Pearl's: Detroit Truetrac \| Tundra/OME 890s w/ Tokico Trekmasters \| SS Diff Drop/Panhard \| Tundra rotors/calipers \| Rear Diff Breather Extension \| Hayden cooler \| K&N \| ISR \| Deckplate \| Jet Black PC'd LC 16x8's w/ LT265/75R16 Cooper S/T's "He who wants to protect everything, protects nothing." -Lt. Gen. Adolf Galland, Luftwaffe "There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

01-08-2004, 07:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
GoudyMan Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 222	if the dif breather is doing its job ok you should be fine...... its not supposed to let water in, but when it gets messed up (and sometimes does over time) then you can run into problems... i think you are ok... but if your gonna do it again extend the breather .

01-09-2004, 09:34 AM	#9 (permalink)
mt_goat Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State Posts: 8,919	It is a lot cheaper to change the gear oil, than gears and bearings. __________________ ~Dale~ 93 4X4 ext-cab, auto, SR5, 3.4 V6, supercharged, 2.1" pulley, URD fuel mods, Aquamist WI, IPT valve body mod, dual cases, 4" superlift front, Alcan springs rear, 33 BFG MT, ARB locked front & rear, 5.29 US Gears, RB 1" Body Lift, 1.5" ball joint spacers, manual hubs, TJM T-17, Warn m8000.

01-09-2004, 09:44 AM	#10 (permalink)
Bumpin' Yota Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 3,639	agreed the 14-16 bux to change the fluid and breathers is worth the piece of mind. Believe me having a shop replace your rear gears and replace all the bearings and seals will run a good grand.....I know Im going through that now. __________________ 3vze, 4x4, sr5, 90, auto, LSD 2x dB Drag World Finalist 2003 Nopi Nat. Street B champ 2004 SBN Street C champ 2004 SBN Advncd NW Champ 2004 Former WR Holder in NW. SPL: 159.8db @ 42hz In loving memory of Jamie Riggs 5/15/85 - 10/8/04

01-09-2004, 10:18 AM	#11 (permalink)
4runner4life2 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Breckenridge, CO Posts: 40	hey heres a question for everybody I just got my 02 4 runner and a week of having it i went with my dad and we went through some water, it was pretty deep but the puddle had a solid rock bottom. see pictures on my site here my dad is an experienced wheeler and as soon as we got home we dried out our engines and after they were all dry hosed down the under carriage , engine compartment, and all essential parts. i have never heard of having to change the diff fluid after going through water. where is the diff breather and how can i check to see if it is ok? it was a pretty cool day so the above post about having it too hot probably doesnt apply to me. I just want to know what it is and how to check. thanks andy __________________ 2002 SR5 4x4 4runner 285 BFG AT's 882 OME lift MTX thunder 6000 12 inch subs Rockford fosgate 1200 watt 2 channel amp Sony Xplod cd deck Sony Xplod three way 6 x 9's looking for: sliders, and an arb the website http://www.freewebs.com/4runner4life2/index.htm

01-09-2004, 10:31 AM	#12 (permalink)
mt_goat Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State Posts: 8,919	The breather is right on top of the diff. It something to worry about on anyday cold or hot. The worst is when your gears are hot and your submurge your hot diff into cold water, the hot air inside the diff cools rapidly and creates a vacuum inside the diff. This vacuum sucks the water into the diff unless your breather is higher than the water. Many people, myself included, have extended the breather up higher with a hose. Here is a link http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/minutemods/breather/ __________________ ~Dale~ 93 4X4 ext-cab, auto, SR5, 3.4 V6, supercharged, 2.1" pulley, URD fuel mods, Aquamist WI, IPT valve body mod, dual cases, 4" superlift front, Alcan springs rear, 33 BFG MT, ARB locked front & rear, 5.29 US Gears, RB 1" Body Lift, 1.5" ball joint spacers, manual hubs, TJM T-17, Warn m8000. Last edited by mt_goat; 01-09-2004 at 10:35 AM.

01-09-2004, 10:42 AM	#13 (permalink)
Highland Runner Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Highlands, NC Posts: 682	If your breather valve is working properly you should be OK. The stock breather is designed to aways have some positive pressure in the diff. Even if the diff i quickly cooled. I have removed and checked the ones in all theToyotas I've owned. There is always a little hiss when I open the fill plugs if the diff is warm. I camp a lot in the summer and have to cross a river that ranges from 16-36 deep. I check the fluid whenever I make the trip. I was draining and refilling for a while but never ever saw water in the fluid. Remember, these trucks are used and abused in harse conditions all over the world. I think the designers thought ahead on the valve design knowing people would be going through a lot of water. It never hurts to change the fluid though. See the thread about 4-Runner in the drink for pics of me going through the river where I camp. __________________ Chris Mine-94 SR5 4-Runner, 3.0, 4X4, Aisin Hubs, Yakima Load Warrior, 210k Miles \| Wifes-99 Limited

01-09-2004, 11:50 AM	#16 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	If the rig has been driven, there is almost always a vacuum in the diff. On my breather write-up page, I show a photo of the stock breather taken apart and you can see how it's a one way valve. In theory, the breather will outgas gradually as the diff heats up, then the valve is supposed to seal in the event that water pressure appears against the outside of the breather or if the diff cools down. It's at the bottom of the page at: http://www.wattora.com/mods/diffbreather/ My experience was somewhat less satisfactory. I wheeled all day, resulting in a vacuum in the diff. When I plunged into a stream crossing, it would seem that a small piece of something kept the breather from closing entirely. Fortunately, when I got home from the run, I checked the diff juice. It was a nasty mix of water and oil that looked like a poorly mixed chocolate milkshake. The stock breather location is fine for street use. But, like so many things on our rigs, it can be improved for off road travel. The engineers DO know what they are doing, but they design the vehicles for the 99% of buyers who will either never use them off road or will only use them in light duty off pavement travel. All it takes is for a speck of gack to keep the breather from sealing well and you will have the same milkshake I had. __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search Last edited by WATRD; 01-09-2004 at 11:55 AM.

01-09-2004, 12:18 PM	#17 (permalink)
mt_goat Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State Posts: 8,919	Nice write-up Rob. That is a good idea putting the old breather at the end of the extension tube. __________________ ~Dale~ 93 4X4 ext-cab, auto, SR5, 3.4 V6, supercharged, 2.1" pulley, URD fuel mods, Aquamist WI, IPT valve body mod, dual cases, 4" superlift front, Alcan springs rear, 33 BFG MT, ARB locked front & rear, 5.29 US Gears, RB 1" Body Lift, 1.5" ball joint spacers, manual hubs, TJM T-17, Warn m8000.

01-09-2004, 01:21 PM	#20 (permalink)
Highland Runner Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Highlands, NC Posts: 682	Yea the air is coming out when I open it up. When the diff is warm there should always be positive pressure in it. I put soapy water around the threads to see for sure. If the diff is cold I'm sure it would be a slight vacuum. After my last river crossing the diff was still slighty warm to the touch, so I figured must be OK. I took my valve apart also to see if it was dirty, but it was clean. Very simple and I thought cheap the way it is crimped together, but it works. I also remove the breather and blow high pressure air through on a regular basis to keep clean. I'll get around to extending mine sometime using Rob's write up. Until then I'll keep checking the fluid after submersion. __________________ Chris Mine-94 SR5 4-Runner, 3.0, 4X4, Aisin Hubs, Yakima Load Warrior, 210k Miles \| Wifes-99 Limited

01-09-2004, 01:33 PM	#22 (permalink)
4x4CPOSEADOG Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Chesapeake, VA Posts: 458	Wow! Good write-up by WATRD. Good Job! Now, do you have any write up for the front differential? How do you guys extend the breather on the front diff? Any idea? Noel __________________ Noel 94 4Runner, V6, 4x4 97 LX450 (stock & no lockers) CDL'ed w/ Pin 7 Mod, Slee cupholder, OME lift soon...... 04 Tacoma Ext Cab V6 4x4 TRD w/RR DIFF LOCK

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