In between a rock and a muddy place... - Page 5

stormin94 · 08-23-2007, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey

Yes, I have a hidden agenda.
You will hand over your title to your rig to me at once.

Thats not exactly what I mean... Should I UPS the title, or FEDEX it to you? jk. Anyway, does anyone have any SOLUTIONS???

WATRD · 08-24-2007, 07:47 AM

A couple of clarifications:

The staff DOES have an agenda, but it's not hidden. It's been expressed in this thread several times. It is: "photos of illegal activity will not be permitted on this forum and will be removed". We've been pretty clear. It's the how that we are trying to decide.

There's some good feedback in this thread and it's being discussed by the staff, but we have not made up our minds, so additional discussion is welcomed. There's a lot of pros and cons to consider and we want to "tread lightly" in our actions. (pun intended)

Paranoids and conspiracy theorists, please take note... Please keep in mind that I have a personal opinion on this matter and it might (does) come through in my posts. That does not mean it's the only one and even I don't claim it's the perfect solution for the whole forum. So, keep in mind that if the staff had our minds made up and were going to patently ignore feeback from the members, we wouldn't ask for it in the first place. That ploy would become pretty obvious when we rolled out a policy that was way out of line from what was discussed here. We honestly do want the feedback and really are considering it in trying to make the right decision for the forum and membership.

We want to do the right thing here, first by the sport/land and second by the forum/membership. That decision will integrate feedback from this thread, but it might take a bit of discussion to decide on the course of action. Even then, it's not set in stone and as someone pointed out, we can "fine tune". Please continue to toss in your thoughts as you have them. We do value them. Even from those of you who are wrong...

Just keep it civil.

Tacoclimber · 08-24-2007, 08:13 AM

This may have little to do with this thread, other than to illustrate my opinion as a climber, mountain biker and four wheeling enthusiast on why it is important to do what we can to preserve trail access, but here goes...

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me." - Martin Niemoller

If we do nothing, then we will find ourselves with nothing.

Turbo4Runner · 08-24-2007, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

I think the idea has some merit, but let me play devil's advocate...

First, how do we enforce that? Delete posts that don't have info?
...

Yes, exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

Second, suppose I go to the Rubicon trail (legal), but then post pictures of me in the closed zone near spider lake (illegal)? My point is that if people are wheeling illegally, telling a lie on a message board and bending the truth or outright lying about where the pics came from isn't going to be a stretch for them. We could still end with pictures of people doing illegal things in illegal places, but it would get left up because they said it was in their own yard

You can't stop people from lying, but you can stop them from putting up pictures that would raise question about YotaTech. I think TacoClimber nailed it when he said there is a personal and a corporate issue here.

Corporate: YotaTech only supports legal wheeling and the forums must represent that fact.
Personal: YotaTech wants to educate people about Tread Lightly! and its message and encourage the users of the site to wheel responsibly to ensure we all have a place to wheel.

If you provide some details about your trip that support the legality, and it is a known legal trail, who is going to debunk it? I doubt the 'greenies' will be hopping in their 4x4 trucks to drive up and down trails to compare the pictures to the scenery. If they did they might end up liking it.

You can put hard controls in place about #1. Posts with off-road shots must provide trail details or its removed, no ifs, ands or buts. (That's plural 'if' not people with IFS

)

We can only encourage people to actually Tread Lightly! through our actions - not by force. But you can create rules that are easy to administer that protect YotaTech.

This isn't an imposition on freedom of speech, this is society evolving and no longer accepting behavior that reflects negatively on us all, and I'm all for it! If anything this thread shows how free we are to speak in this forum. If we weren't free to speak, they would have just come up with rules and implemented them without discussing the idea with the user base.

MudHippy · 08-24-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormin94

Anyway, does anyone have any SOLUTIONS???

Let me try another approach.

Sound good?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacoclimber

If we do nothing, then we will find ourselves with nothing.

On Enmity and it's consequences:

Quote:

The essence of conflict is blame. I blame you. You blame me. I think you are "wrong". You think I am "wrong". I believe you to be "bad". You believe me to be "bad". That is a state of mutual blame. And the inevitable result is conflict. And as long as the blame continues, the conflict continues. As long as each of us continues to think and believe that the other is "wrong" and "bad", each of us will continue to be the enemy of the other. If we stop thinking the other is wrong, we stop blaming him. And if we both stop blaming, then there is no more enmity, no more conflict. If even one of us stops blaming, then the conflict goes. Because it requires two opposing forces to create a conflict. The other may still feel that there is a state of enmity. But it is no longer a mutual agreement, therefore although it may continue to manifest in his head, it cannot manifest outwardly.

Personally it has only been harmful to my mental health to engage in this thread. I'm sure those who have disagreed with my statements found my participation hasn't been pleasent for them either.

We should all stop playing the blame game. Simple as that.

04 Rocko Taco · 08-24-2007, 01:08 PM

Mud Hippy. No blame here. Just a quick question. Nobody in oregon has ever heard of Tread Lightly and it doesnt make sense...okay...but here is my question...
Well really a couple of questions probably by the time I finish typing...

1) How does ignoring a problem help you? If I come into your house and start taking your possessions because you aren't holding on to them, and you just ignore me, all I need you to do is make the effort to hold onto your stuff, and I cant take it, but if you dont hold onto it, i'll take it outside with me, and come back for more, now if you just ignore me, and keep not holding on to your stuff, will you still be okay ignoring me once I have taken everything and you have no more stuff? Just because you ignored the problem doesnt make it go away... You still have no stuff. Like it or not. This is the same thing happening with the 'greenies' they are closing our trails, they are taking what is OURS. All we have to do is take care of it and put in the maintenance to 'hold onto' our trails. If we just ignore what they are doing, does that protect us from getting our trails closed? No it just makes us blind in denial.

and 2) no one in your area knows about Tread Lightly!, okay fair enough, but is ignorance of an issue a good exscuse? Say your traveling to Georgia...you spit on a sidewalk in Newnan (which is illegal -stupid, I know) and they arrest you and fine you for it. Do you think the court will accept 'I didn't know' as an exscuse and just let you go? No, I promsie they will not, I have been told exstenively in my younger days that "ignorance of the law is no exscuse in a court of law, it is your responsibility to know the laws and rules wherever you go" Whether you wanted to "play the police's game" and only spit in the street instead of on the sidewalk or not, ignoring the law and claiming you didn't know will still end in the same result as doing it on purpose.

We STILL lose our trails.

MudHippy · 08-24-2007, 01:14 PM

We coexistence in what must be fantastical splendor to those who haven't experienced it. ALL OF US.

The mountain bikers have their trails.

The folks who want to ride their horses have their trails.

The hikers have their trails.

The atv/dirtbike/4x4 people have their trails.

NEVER BEEN A PROBLEM!!!!! NEVER SHOULD BE A PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't INSIST it's our problem HERE if it AIN'T. Sorry yall did whatever you did for there to be such a fuss about it where your at. Seriously.

WATRD · 08-24-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04 Rocko Taco

We STILL lose our trails.

Actually, we will lose them faster. He is advocating not just ignoring the situation, but also tearing down gates to gain access to closed areas. I have a very interesting PM from him to that effect...

MudHippy · 08-24-2007, 01:28 PM

Taken out of context, that would appear to be something I condone. In reality what I am refering to is the ILLEGAL locking of gates that serve as access barriers to public land. That's a federal offense. I spoke to the BLM themselves for that information. The fight for use of public land is lost without confronting the lawbreakers in these instances.

Try again cheif.

WATRD · 08-24-2007, 01:36 PM

Here's the exact quote from your PM:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MudHippy

I'm JUST SICK AND TIRED of finding these NEW restrictions to my travels that I seem to encounter more and more of as I age. STUPID POINTLESS POWER TRIPPERS trying to keep me out of places I've driven into freely for YEARS without a HINT damage or harm to ANYTHING. A great deal of them in conflict with state/federal laws by placing these obstructions, and/or keeping them locked, when and where they restrict public access to PUBLIC LAND(BLM). I make it my job to tear down/cut to peices/and remove these ILLEGAL barriers wherever possible. And am NOT afraid visit areas that RIGHTFULLY belong to ME! This whole thing has gotten WAY out of hand. And I will NOT support such behaviour under the guise of "Enviromental Protection".

Perhaps you can clarify for us just who puts these barriers up...
I will leave it to each individual to determine what you are advocating.

4biker · 08-24-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacoclimber

This may have little to do with this thread, other than to illustrate my opinion as a climber, mountain biker and four wheeling enthusiast on why it is important to do what we can to preserve trail access, but here goes...

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up,
because I wasn?t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up,
because I wasn?t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn?t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me." - Martin Niemoller

If we do nothing, then we will find ourselves with nothing.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Access is going to be taken from us because of the ignorance and...
Well, ignorant contains two great words : Ignore (Let's tear down those stupid no-access signs! ), and rant (I hate everything! no one has jurisdiction over me! Tread Lightly is a waste of time and money! Kill the ecoterrorists! and my personal favorite: You're going to take down the illegal photos, I'll just remove all of mine first!) Seriously Mudhippy, evil doesn't go away just because you're not watching, listening, or speaking it. Those monkeys don't last long in real life. I hate singling somone out, but that is just the most counterproductive attitude I've ever seen, anywhere. I'd like to hear your rationalization when Oregon passes a law banning motorized use in OHV parks. With you people that just don't care about boundaries, it's going to happen. I've bought the Oregon OHV tag before and wheeled in Brown's camp (and mountain biked there). It'll be a shame when all of that goes away, Oregon's a gorgeous place to go off-road.

4biker · 08-24-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

We want to do the right thing here, first by the sport/land and second by the forum/membership. That decision will integrate feedback from this thread, but it might take a bit of discussion to decide on the course of action. Even then, it's not set in stone and as someone pointed out, we can "fine tune". Please continue to toss in your thoughts as you have them. We do value them. Even from those of you who are wrong...

Just keep it civil.

After reading some of the other suggestions (and I hope I'm not plagiarizing), One option is: a firm policy to require a written context of any wheeling picture. That way, any pic not following policy is subject to deletion, regardless of content. That places the responsibility to justify the post on the poster, not the admin to decide what gets through (something like burden of proof). The downside to that, of course, is it's more work for me, the common man, to actually be forced to write why I'm posting a pic.

AxleIke · 08-24-2007, 02:26 PM

I'm glad that things are good in Oregon. While it would be nice if things were like that elsewhere, almost everyone else in the country has to deal with trail closure. There is a huge closure on the books for Moab as we speak. This is getting damn close to home.

While Oregon isn't affected, the pics taken elsewhere can do serious damage to our trail systems.

Let me put it this way. I'm sick and tired of this crap. Can someone PLEASE explain to me why it is such an imposition to stay on the trail? Why is this so hard?

Tell you this much though, any who hope to wheel around here in CO better stay on trail. There are some clubs who are getting damn near millitant. As a fellow i know put it, "I see someone driving off trail, and I'll shoot em myself". While i don't condone any sort of illegal activity, this sort of action would probably give me satisfaction.

Anyway, all that aside, I hope the Mods have gotten it figured out by now. Delete, delete, delete.

Let's quit arguing over stupid bull.

stormin94 · 08-24-2007, 03:46 PM

I think Tread Lightly is GREAT!!! Because where I was raised, the hippy's(or eco terrorists, enviro-freaks as we also called them) all wanted abolish the sport of 4x4-ing. None were willing to even work with any of the 4 wheelers. Tread Lightly seems to be working with us to keep our trails open, an useable. So, for those who chose to engage in illegal wheeling and say that it's because there is no where else to go, why don't you send a letter to your senator, or congressman? Get a petition going around so that you can have more legal areas to go wheeling. Anyway, why doesn't someone get a list of all the ideas brought up, so we can vote one them, or something like that???

***Corey*** · 08-24-2007, 03:55 PM

On a a side note, could someone post a Word document draft to send/email to your states senators?
I have conversed many times with my states representative on other matters.
http://cantwell.senate.gov/

This info though could actually go into a new thread in this same section so as to not get this thread off topic.

And perhaps a list of senators sites too to contact them by.

stormin94 · 08-24-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey

On a a side note, could someone post a Word document draft to send/email to your states senators?
I have conversed many times with my states representative on other matters.
http://cantwell.senate.gov/

This info though could actually go into a new thread in this same section so as to not get this thread off topic.

And perhaps a list of senators sites too to contact them by.

Thats a good idea......

08-24-2007, 07:47 AM	#102 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,125	A couple of clarifications: The staff DOES have an agenda, but it's not hidden. It's been expressed in this thread several times. It is: "photos of illegal activity will not be permitted on this forum and will be removed". We've been pretty clear. It's the how that we are trying to decide. There's some good feedback in this thread and it's being discussed by the staff, but we have not made up our minds, so additional discussion is welcomed. There's a lot of pros and cons to consider and we want to "tread lightly" in our actions. (pun intended) Paranoids and conspiracy theorists, please take note... Please keep in mind that I have a personal opinion on this matter and it might (does) come through in my posts. That does not mean it's the only one and even I don't claim it's the perfect solution for the whole forum. So, keep in mind that if the staff had our minds made up and were going to patently ignore feeback from the members, we wouldn't ask for it in the first place. That ploy would become pretty obvious when we rolled out a policy that was way out of line from what was discussed here. We honestly do want the feedback and really are considering it in trying to make the right decision for the forum and membership. We want to do the right thing here, first by the sport/land and second by the forum/membership. That decision will integrate feedback from this thread, but it might take a bit of discussion to decide on the course of action. Even then, it's not set in stone and as someone pointed out, we can "fine tune". Please continue to toss in your thoughts as you have them. We do value them. Even from those of you who are wrong... Just keep it civil. __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA Prez Tread Lightly certified Tread Trainer I don't work here anymore... In fact, I seldom visit anymore. You can find me via the links in my signature.

08-24-2007, 08:13 AM	#103 (permalink)
Tacoclimber Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Between a rock and a hard place, AZ Posts: 3,491	This may have little to do with this thread, other than to illustrate my opinion as a climber, mountain biker and four wheeling enthusiast on why it is important to do what we can to preserve trail access, but here goes... "First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me." - Martin Niemoller If we do nothing, then we will find ourselves with nothing. __________________ CJ ...<>< 03 DC TRD Tacoma 4wd with a bunch of junk. Just wheel the stupid thing!!! But do it responsibly, ok? Last edited by Tacoclimber : 08-24-2007 at 08:15 AM.

08-24-2007, 01:08 PM	#106 (permalink)
04 Rocko Taco Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 4,092	Mud Hippy. No blame here. Just a quick question. Nobody in oregon has ever heard of Tread Lightly and it doesnt make sense...okay...but here is my question... Well really a couple of questions probably by the time I finish typing... 1) How does ignoring a problem help you? If I come into your house and start taking your possessions because you aren't holding on to them, and you just ignore me, all I need you to do is make the effort to hold onto your stuff, and I cant take it, but if you dont hold onto it, i'll take it outside with me, and come back for more, now if you just ignore me, and keep not holding on to your stuff, will you still be okay ignoring me once I have taken everything and you have no more stuff? Just because you ignored the problem doesnt make it go away... You still have no stuff. Like it or not. This is the same thing happening with the 'greenies' they are closing our trails, they are taking what is OURS. All we have to do is take care of it and put in the maintenance to 'hold onto' our trails. If we just ignore what they are doing, does that protect us from getting our trails closed? No it just makes us blind in denial. and 2) no one in your area knows about Tread Lightly!, okay fair enough, but is ignorance of an issue a good exscuse? Say your traveling to Georgia...you spit on a sidewalk in Newnan (which is illegal -stupid, I know) and they arrest you and fine you for it. Do you think the court will accept 'I didn't know' as an exscuse and just let you go? No, I promsie they will not, I have been told exstenively in my younger days that "ignorance of the law is no exscuse in a court of law, it is your responsibility to know the laws and rules wherever you go" Whether you wanted to "play the police's game" and only spit in the street instead of on the sidewalk or not, ignoring the law and claiming you didn't know will still end in the same result as doing it on purpose. We STILL lose our trails. __________________ -Chris Tread Lightly! 04 Double Cab PreRunner. 3.4 - Auto 84 4Runner 4WD. 22R - 5 spd Lifted, Locked, 33x12.50 Disclaimer:My Photobucket is being revamped. If there are broken links, shoot me a PM. Thanks. ~Chris Great Toyota Tech

08-24-2007, 01:14 PM	#107 (permalink)
MudHippy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Realm Of Fecal Cohesion Posts: 1,926	We coexistence in what must be fantastical splendor to those who haven't experienced it. ALL OF US. The mountain bikers have their trails. The folks who want to ride their horses have their trails. The hikers have their trails. The atv/dirtbike/4x4 people have their trails. NEVER BEEN A PROBLEM!!!!! NEVER SHOULD BE A PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!! Don't INSIST it's our problem HERE if it AIN'T. Sorry yall did whatever you did for there to be such a fuss about it where your at. Seriously. __________________ Sonoran Steel Early IFS Truss Your IFS is SPINELESS without it SonoranSteel.com I'm Cuckoo For YOTA Trucks! Last edited by MudHippy : 08-24-2007 at 01:17 PM.

08-24-2007, 01:28 PM	#109 (permalink)
MudHippy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Realm Of Fecal Cohesion Posts: 1,926	Taken out of context, that would appear to be something I condone. In reality what I am refering to is the ILLEGAL locking of gates that serve as access barriers to public land. That's a federal offense. I spoke to the BLM themselves for that information. The fight for use of public land is lost without confronting the lawbreakers in these instances. Try again cheif. __________________ Sonoran Steel Early IFS Truss Your IFS is SPINELESS without it SonoranSteel.com I'm Cuckoo For YOTA Trucks!

08-24-2007, 02:26 PM	#113 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,535	I'm glad that things are good in Oregon. While it would be nice if things were like that elsewhere, almost everyone else in the country has to deal with trail closure. There is a huge closure on the books for Moab as we speak. This is getting damn close to home. While Oregon isn't affected, the pics taken elsewhere can do serious damage to our trail systems. Let me put it this way. I'm sick and tired of this crap. Can someone PLEASE explain to me why it is such an imposition to stay on the trail? Why is this so hard? Tell you this much though, any who hope to wheel around here in CO better stay on trail. There are some clubs who are getting damn near millitant. As a fellow i know put it, "I see someone driving off trail, and I'll shoot em myself". While i don't condone any sort of illegal activity, this sort of action would probably give me satisfaction. Anyway, all that aside, I hope the Mods have gotten it figured out by now. Delete, delete, delete. Let's quit arguing over stupid bull. __________________ IFS SAS My mods aren't bling enough for the signature line. -All Terrains are for when you know how to drive.

08-24-2007, 03:46 PM	#114 (permalink)
stormin94 Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lake County, CA/Sacramento Posts: 3,276	I think Tread Lightly is GREAT!!! Because where I was raised, the hippy's(or eco terrorists, enviro-freaks as we also called them) all wanted abolish the sport of 4x4-ing. None were willing to even work with any of the 4 wheelers. Tread Lightly seems to be working with us to keep our trails open, an useable. So, for those who chose to engage in illegal wheeling and say that it's because there is no where else to go, why don't you send a letter to your senator, or congressman? Get a petition going around so that you can have more legal areas to go wheeling. Anyway, why doesn't someone get a list of all the ideas brought up, so we can vote one them, or something like that??? __________________ 1994 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4X4 208,000 miles and counting 3.0 V6, 5 speed 14/19 MPG city/hwy(before 33's) Current Mods Headers, 2.5" Flowmaster custom exhaust, K&N FIPK KC Daylighter 100 Watt lights Ranchos x4, 2" Lift Downey coils 33-12.50 M/T's, 1" t-bar lift, 1" body lift Tow pkg w/ lighthookups Silverstar Headlights, Pioneer Deck w/XM Brushguard 250Watt JLAudio 8" W3 Sub Future Mods 12V Aux outlet-400/800peak inverter roof basket/lights Air locker 4.88 gears H.O. Alternator

08-24-2007, 03:55 PM	#115 (permalink)
*Corey* Co-Founder/Administrator Staff Join Date: May 2002 Location: Auburn, Washington Posts: 23,755	On a a side note, could someone post a Word document draft to send/email to your states senators? I have conversed many times with my states representative on other matters. http://cantwell.senate.gov/ This info though could actually go into a new thread in this same section so as to not get this thread off topic. And perhaps a list of senators sites too to contact them by. __________________ Corey 2007 FJ Cruiser ARB bumper, Warn XD9000, OME lift, roof top tent, so much more, see my website & buildup thread PNW FJ Cruisers ☺ Detailing 101 ☺ Join Topsites ☺ Muffler Comparisons ☺ Maggiolinas In The Wild FJ Cruiser Buildup ☺ New Roof Top Tent ☺ Video Of My Penthouse ☺ Rehinge Your ARB/Engel Fridge