Wombosi

I am currently in the process of building a 'hydrogen booster' for my V6 4WD 4Runner. The purpose of this thread is to see if this particular design will increase fuel economy in the 3VZE.

I've heard in other threads people complaining that there is no proven "data" to show that one of these DIY units will actually increase gas mileage. By the end of next week I will have documented data for before and after the hydrogen cell enhancement, as well as steps to make the unit in case it does work.

I was a skeptic at first, but after seeing the results on one of my friend's S10 trucks, I was spurred to begin creating a unit of my own.

In order to keep this thread from ballooning into a chemistry-knowledge war, I would kindly ask to steer posts toward design improvements fuel economy data. My area of expertise is Electrical Engineering, not Chemistry.

Looking forward to your feedback.
Pictures to come!

abecedarian

everyone I know doesn't have the slightest doubt that hydrogen won't help their engine economy. they doubt that the cost of producing the hydrogen offsets the cost of gasoline. meaning that it costs more to produce the hydrogen to combine with gasoline than it costs to buy the gasoline alone therefore meaning hydrogen injection to a gasoline engine actually costs more than gasoline alone.
so, please factor everything in.

Wombosi

Very good point. This project will use the wasted energy from the alternator to make hydrogen. Stock alternators on the 1994 4Runner put out 60 to 70 amps (relatively weaksauce compared to most others) but only use about 1/2 of that energy to keep the battery charged. This is, of course, unless someone is running a high-power stereo system with subwoofers. This design will use a maximum of 30A to charge the electrode in the unit.

So theoretically, we will have "free" energy (pertaining to money) to put back into the combustion process. Not a bulletproof case I'll admit, but it will definitely put the alternator to the test.

abecedarian

what energy is wasted by the alternator?
a/c power generation by the alternator is load based meaning that the larger the electrical load on the system, the more output by the alternator up to the point where the voltage/amperage output of the alternator is exceeded by the electrical draw on it at which point the battery assumes the lead role in voltage/current source.
the only waste from the alternator is residual heat from the field and stator windings.

abecedarian

the alternator system in the toyota is in no way comparable to say, the alternator/generator system in a Honda CX500-TC motorcycle where excess voltage is sinked to ground through a resistor network thus creating a constant load on the alternator regardless of battery condition... where I may argue there is wasted alternator production.

abecedarian

If the alternator is, say, not operating at full output capacity and some of that left-over capacity is being directed towards producing hydrogen via electrolysis, that 're-directed' capacity is not 'wasted'- it is an additional load on the alternator: the voltage and amperage required to electrolyse H2O into hydrogen and oxygen is a load on the alternator and will therefore increase the load on the engine caused by the alternator, consequently increasing fuel consumption in order to facilitate the load and will also reduce the available output to the electrical system by the amount of current required to electrolyse the H2O.

toyotanick

hey guys, an ex employee has recently gone into the HHO business. hydrogen gas is very easily produce and yes it does increase gas mileage but you must realize what your putting into your engine. the reason you get better gas mileage with this hydrogen gas is because it is leaning the mixture out. now, because of this you engine will most likely begin to Ping. when this happens your knock sensor will start retarding timing to compensate for the leaning of the air fuel mixture. eventually you will have collision of parts in your engine because of this and will probably end up braking a valve which may cause you to also throw a rod ending in a locked up engine.

i tell you this because the guy who is going into this HHO stuff has recently done all of this to his brand new jeep commander!

also you are creating this hydrogen gas from liquid, so you will be putting basically water in your engine. this may not be anywhere near the amount that will cause your engine to throw a connecting rod or anything but may cause corrosion on you intake valve and valve seats.

abecedarian

and don't forget the effects of hydrogen embrittlement where hydrogen atoms permeate the metallic structure of whatever it comes into contact with...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

toyotanick

wow... definatelly didnt know that!

Wombosi

Thanks for the warning abecedarian, I appreciate it. You are right, hydrogen is a very reactive element. Makes gasoline combust too, right? I will be careful to limit how much gas enters the engine.

toyotanick, what setup was your friend running on his jeep, direct (pure) hydrogen injection or the cheap way I'm doing it?

Also guys, remember in the HHO, that is a huge O. 80-85% O (fast calculations) and shouldn't lean the mixture too much.

I thought the timing was exclusively set at a number, (0 or 10 clicks advanced) on engines using distributers, but I'm probably wrong. Also, I believe the AFM can be adjusted to compensate for the pinging symptom.

abecedarian

adding oxygen won't lean the mixture?
tell that to the NOS guys.

Hydrogen does not make anything combust. Hydrogen is a fuel as is gasoline, diesel or kerosene, coal, which whatever.
Combustion by definition is the rapid oxidation of a fuel- the combination of oxygen with reactive materials. In the ideal 'hydrogen' situation, 2 atoms of hydrogen would be combusted and oxidize with one atom of oxygen thus rendering water as the resultant molecule. In reality, that will not happen, as some of the hydrogen will permeate the metals of the engine... if normal 'air' is used for the combustion process, some of the nitrogen (the primary constituant of 'air') and carbon will combine with the hydrogen and oxygen and create more complex hydrocarbons as well as nitric oxide, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. thought you could get away from it, didn't you?

toyotanick

the system he uses and is putting on is made by a guy that has absolutely everything patented. im not sure of the name of everything.

tc

There's too much inaccurate chemistry/laws of thermodynamics in these 11 posts to even go into ...

Just post the data. I made the offer in the other thread, and it still stands. Post up 10 tanks of MPG data before the mod, and 10 after. I'll perform the statistical analysis and tell you what you're confidence level is that the difference was caused by the new system.

tc

A patent doesn't mean it works - just that it's unique ...

abecedarian

is it possible to include the simple molecular relationship between water and it's electrolysed by products: 2 hydrogen atoms : 1 oxygen atom. therefore oxygen would be approximately 33% of the resultant gaseous mixture, not 80-85% as mentioned earlier.

abecedarian

i feel the most important point to be made is that the claim requires the assumption that there is 'wasted' output from the alternator, of which there is none other than the heat lost within the windings of the stator and field coils and the rectifier / regulator assemblies.
in order to 'use' some of the capacity of the alternator to generate this HHO gas, the alternator output must be increased above what is required by the vehicle, thus putting more load on the engine to spin the alternator.

Wombosi

Haha good one tc. I agree. Yeah, I'm not near as worried as those guys, but I'm still gonna be careful. 3.slow engines are literally free. Seriously, I can get them for basically free.

tc is right. Please try to go lighter on the Chemistry guys. Facts and facts only. I have lots of data from previous runs. Would you prefer freeway trips or normal driving, or a mixture of the two? Most of my driving coming up will be freeway driving about 55-65 mph, about the optimal speed for gas mileage.

Thanks for your help!

toyotanick

thats not what i am saying. i does work, but there is quite possibly a big consequence!

abecedarian

I'd like to hear about brake-specific fuel consumption, carefully controlled induction and the like, demonstrating the possibility it would work under laboratory conditions followed by carefully controlled real-world trials in a closed-course environment in order to ensure there were no extraneous variables introduced and finally public trials.

abecedarian

If you're going to go so far as to make a claim, make sure it works before you start proselytizing.