3.4 Rebuild

***midiwall*** · 12-03-2006, 02:27 PM

Well, I've had better news...

What's wrong with this pic? (click for a larger view)

(the real fun thing for me is looking at the plugs - note the missing porcelain insulator in the first two)

So, minimally it's a valve/head job. But the local Toyota Gawd and I talked, and given that there's 163k on this engine, the right thing to do is a complete rebuild. The good news is that this will give me basically a brand new engine. The better news is that while it's torn down, I may get a chance to do some more power build-up options. I'm talking to Weasy2k now about options and if he'd like another test bed for his power toys.

A couple of more pics of the missing top-end:

The heads go to the machinist today, he may start on them tomorrow, then the teardown & rebuild will start this week. I may have the truck back in 2-3 weeks.

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GRNTACO · 12-08-2006, 04:41 PM

WOW!

That is what Chris' motor looked like after the S/C.

Let me know if you need a hand with anything.

***midiwall*** · 12-08-2006, 05:00 PM

Hi Ben!

Yeah, I went and visited it yesterday... There's some pitting in a couple of the pistons as well.

Basically it's all coming out and getting torn down. New pistons and probably bearings, but that's a "wait and see" until DD gets the block torn down.

I'm talking to the machinist tonight about some options that he's come up with. He's talking about o-ringing the engine, but from what I read, that's generally reserved for running 12+lbs of boost. I personally don't think it's important for _me_, but we'll see.

He did mention that he's not a fan of creating compression by machining the heads, so that may be out. I've talked to Weasy2k and he doesn't have pistons ready, so those may remain stock. I won't put his long duration cams in it right now, those I can do myself later if I wanna play.

Machined heads/block, pistons, rings, valves, full gasket set, probably main bearings...

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

GRNTACO · 12-09-2006, 10:47 AM

You are definitely in good hands with DD and the crew he runs with.

When you said "o-ringing the engine" is that like sleeving the cylinders?

***midiwall*** · 12-09-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRNTACO

You are definitely in good hands with DD and the crew he runs with.

Oh I know.. he's at the top of my "I trust you to rebuild my engine" list.

Quote:

When you said "o-ringing the engine" is that like sleeving the cylinders?

I had to look into that as well. Basically you're sealing the heads and manifold to the block to be sure that there are no leaks. The machinist would cut a groove around each port opening on both the block and the head. Then during reassembly, you drop o-rings into them to guarantee a seal. I gotta figure it's expensive.

I talked to the machinist this morning and he agrees that I'm not making enough boost to warrant the work. But... he will be looking at the heads on Monday to see if opening up the ports would be useful.

Status in general is that one head is cleaned up, DD's got the engine out of the truck and I think he's looking at bringing it to the shop today. The other head will get done Monday/Tuesday, then T (the machinist) will look at porting them. Once the lower end of the block is stripped, it goes to the machinist for cleanup, honing the cylinders and possibly oil seals. That's also when I'd find out about any damage down below.

GRNTACO · 12-09-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

I had to look into that as well. Basically you're sealing the heads and manifold to the block to be sure that there are no leaks. The machinist would cut a groove around each port opening on both the block and the head. Then during reassembly, you drop o-rings into them to guarantee a seal. I gotta figure it's expensive.

Makes sense now. That does seem a bit overboard for a DD application.

***midiwall*** · 12-09-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRNTACO

Makes sense now. That does seem a bit overboard for a DD application.

Umm, Ben... you know this is _ME_ right? You've seen me "daily" drive.

rimpainter.com · 12-09-2006, 05:22 PM

Dang Mark, we haven't "talked" in a while. Holy moley, when did this happen? So, based on the pics, my guess is that you lost compression in one of the cylinders due to detonation (and a chunk missing off of one of the intake valves), and tore it down to find out what happened?

Yikes dude. So, how can I prevent this from happening to me?

In other words, do you know exactly how this happened? Was it a bang! thing, or gradual over time?

Lots of questions there, but you can basically answer by saying what happened, or what you speculate happened. Sorry dude!

(I'll be up there next week/weekend. Maybe can try and grab that 2-years-in-the-making coffee if you have time).

***midiwall*** · 12-09-2006, 05:39 PM

Hey Christian!

Well.. a few months ago I was driving along and (literally) BANG!... oh, wait... i started a thread when it happened:

http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=92921

Yeah, this is why I haven't been around much. I haven't been in the mood to even think about having fun with the truck in months.

"Why it happened" wise... dun't really know. There's definitely pitting on the #4 & #6 pistons (that head is from the drivers side) but there's no pitting in #2 where the valve is broken/burned. The pitting could have been there from 3 years ago when the S/C went on, or it could be more recent. The valve could have been burned from running lean, or it could have just been "time".

As you look at that pic, keep in mind that's after an additional 3500 miles of driving _after_ the "BANG!" in August. So all the carbon, burned porcelain and such could have happpened after the fact.

We just don't know.

Once the block gets torn down we may have a better clue as to how much long-term abuse I'd put on it.

GRNTACO · 12-09-2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midiwall

Umm, Ben... you know this is _ME_ right? You've seen me "daily" drive.

My bad.

Why have it if you aren't going to use it.....right?

***midiwall*** · 12-09-2006, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRNTACO

My bad.

Why have it if you aren't going to use it.....right?

RIGHT!

And... I had a fun conversation tonight with Mr. Weasy2k. If ya'll haven't been following what Johnny's been up to, well, I'll be able to tell you first hand in 3 weeks or so.

(omg... WEEEEEEEEEE!)

rdharper · 12-10-2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by <96 Runner>

Yikes dude. So, how can I prevent this from happening to me?

How do you avoid what happened to one of our heroes? Easy... listen and learn from Mark. But keep your vehicle stock, and don't try to follow his path.... or should I say wake.

Sorry Mark, I know its not funny. Just a perspective from an old guy thats been there. And, although you don't need any luck, I wish it anyway.

rimpainter.com · 12-10-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdharper

How do you avoid what happened to one of our heroes? Easy... listen and learn from Mark. But keep your vehicle stock, and don't try to follow his path.... or should I say wake.

Stock? What fun is that? Besides, I am way beyond that already...

rdharper · 12-10-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by <96 Runner>

Stock? What fun is that? Besides, I am way beyond that already...

You asked.

ebelen1 · 12-10-2006, 02:10 PM

Mark,

Just curious and if you don't mind sharing, what is all that work gonna cost? For those that aren't s/c'd but may have many miles on a motor and are considering options, it would be interesting to know dollars versus other options.

***midiwall*** · 12-10-2006, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdharper

Quote:

Originally Posted by <96 Runner>

View Post
Yikes dude. So, how can I prevent this from happening to me?

How do you avoid what happened to one of our heroes? Easy... listen and learn from Mark. But keep your vehicle stock, and don't try to follow his path.... or should I say wake.

Sorry Mark, I know its not funny. Just a perspective from an old guy thats been there. And, although you don't need any luck, I wish it anyway.

yeah... it's interesting that it happened, that's for sure. I mean, with all the B'ing and Moaning that I do about fuel mods and such, you'd think that "this" wouldn't happen to me.

And that said, I'm still standing on the corner saying that this isn't from running lean. I live by watching that A/FR meter and the EGT as well. Dun't really know what happened, but I agree that it smells like a hot and lean engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebelen1

Mark,

Just curious and if you don't mind sharing, what is all that work gonna cost? For those that aren't s/c'd but may have many miles on a motor and are considering options, it would be interesting to know dollars versus other options.

Umm, given that the work is mostly being done by a buddy on the side, I'm not in a position to quote his guess at the bottom line. Ya' know? It's one of those things where the "time spent" will be a rough estimate (versus a dealer nitpicking about 15 minutes here and there), the per/hour charge will be "ehh, let's say..." and the parts cost will be "well, it was about...".

Generally the baseline work will be SUBSTANTIALLY less than what a dealer would charge. Add to that a small bit of sweat equity on my part (which is a "cost savings" as long as I don't get in anyone's way!) and then I spent some extra money with Weasky2k to make this beast stronger (in terms of power and durability) when it's all done.

I haven't had a car payment in about 5 years, and the money I've spent on the truck since then is relatively small, so the money I'm spending now is "worth it". Of course, it sucks to have to come up with it on the fly, but... I don't see me driving much anything else but this thing for a while to come.

yota_krazy · 12-10-2006, 07:14 PM

if you dont mind me asking, which machine shop are you using?

***midiwall*** · 12-10-2006, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yota_krazy

if you dont mind me asking, which machine shop are you using?

DD has that covered, he's known the guy for 15ish years. The shop is commercial and I have the guy's name and contact info but I don't know the name of the shop. I know they cater to a lot of the local racers.

Basically, I trust DD, and trust those folks that he trusts without question.

Yobroe · 12-31-2006, 04:01 PM

Is your truck done yet, and if so, what was the final cost for a rebuild? I have 184k right now and I have no power---just started happening last week, so it may be time for a rebuild myself.

89934runr · 12-31-2006, 04:49 PM

Mark-

Even though he's not a fan of building compression by milling the heads, it might be required. If that is so- then get a piston with a lower compression height and or compression rating. The othe thing to consider is that milling the head changes valve timing events very slightly- not that it can't be compensated for. Some tricks are to use a fatter head gasket to compensate for the milling (same trick used to lower compression). At 163K, you might be asking a bit much on the metallurgy of the stock pistons, esp if you're making boost.

I'd also look into better rods, as the stock 3.4 rods aren't the top of the heap. They'll do fine for a n/a DD, but if you're like me (sounds like it), you'll go for something a bit stronger. Pauter, Crower, Scat? My boost-built 3.4 will have a beefier bottom end by way of crank prep and much better rods, with custom pistons.

***midiwall*** · 12-31-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yobroe

Is your truck done yet, and if so, what was the final cost for a rebuild? I have 184k right now and I have no power---just started happening last week, so it may be time for a rebuild myself.

Nope, it's not done yet. The delay is my fault... While I steadfastly stated that "I'M NOT BUILDING A RACING ENGINE!" I ended up looking into building a racing engine.

The hold-up has been waiting on a quote for some custom grinding on a set of stainless valves. The grinder was at a show, then on vacation for the first set of holidays, then gave a quote of a BOATLOAD of cash (over $2200 _retail_), and then went on vacation for the 2nd set of holidays. The net result is that I (and to his credit, Weasky2k) pulled the plug on walking down that route. I'll be going with standard valves, and possibly looking at having them locally ground.

The cams, stiffer springs and taller shims are done. I'll have those soon.

The port 'n polish on the heads and final machining on the block have been waiting to see what was going to happen on the valves. So now that that issue's been resolved, the machining work can continue.

The valve body has been done, IPT did it _the same day_ they got it, but of course I won't know how that feels until the engine's done.

It dawned on me today that I should take this chance to get my injectors cleaned and spec'd. I'd done other sets, but not the 370's that are in there now. So that'll happen this week too.

I'd say I'm looking at the end of January to have it all back together.

Cost wise... sorry, but like I said earlier, the cost variances in here are huge. A lot of the labor charges are "buddy" charges, the parts pricing is all over the map of cost/retail/custom. The end result is that this will be anything but a "typical" rebuild, and as such, I just don't feel comfortable quoting numbers.

Safe to say though, that it's a LOT less than what a dealer would charge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 89934runr

Mark-

Even though he's not a fan of building compression by milling the heads, it might be required. If that is so- then get a piston with a lower compression height and or compression rating. The othe thing to consider is that milling the head changes valve timing events very slightly- not that it can't be compensated for. Some tricks are to use a fatter head gasket to compensate for the milling (same trick used to lower compression). At 163K, you might be asking a bit much on the metallurgy of the stock pistons, esp if you're making boost.

I'd also look into better rods, as the stock 3.4 rods aren't the top of the heap. They'll do fine for a n/a DD, but if you're like me (sounds like it), you'll go for something a bit stronger. Pauter, Crower, Scat? My boost-built 3.4 will have a beefier bottom end by way of crank prep and much better rods, with custom pistons.

Hey there... THANK YOU for the input. I'll send this off to the machinist. I'm learning a LOT through the process, but not nearly enough to feel comfortable commenting.

RidgeRunner · 12-31-2006, 08:03 PM

Hey Mark,

Sorry to hear about your engine woes...Looks like you're going to come out of it real cool.

As you know, we have the same truck so I'm going to try to learn from your experience. With only 113K and no blower I hopefully have some wiggle room.

Keep us posted, guy. We're interested and feel for ya.:cry:

Mick

***midiwall*** · 01-01-2007, 03:08 PM

MICK! DOOD! Hey man! Like what's happenin'?!

Thanks for popping in, and yeah, I hope this all flushes out okay. It'll be a bit stressful turning the key that first time, but I bet I'll get used it it fairly quick.

Tanto · 01-01-2007, 03:58 PM

Somehow I missed this thread. Anyways, looks like you're in a good position to add some more ponies!

Good luck, Mark. Keep us posted.

Tanto · 01-01-2007, 04:01 PM

Now that I look at that first picture closer, it looks like a very similar chip in your valve that someone else with a N/A 3.4L got in his. He was very aggressive with the motor (desert racing) which would put it in a similar category as your driving habits it seems. He never did find out where that piece went to in the engine during the rebuild....

12-08-2006, 04:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
GRNTACO Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: On a trail in WA. Posts: 1,439	WOW! That is what Chris' motor looked like after the S/C. Let me know if you need a hand with anything. __________________ Ben

12-08-2006, 05:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
*midiwall* Sponsoring Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seattleish, WA Posts: 9,078	Hi Ben! Yeah, I went and visited it yesterday... There's some pitting in a couple of the pistons as well. Basically it's all coming out and getting torn down. New pistons and probably bearings, but that's a "wait and see" until DD gets the block torn down. I'm talking to the machinist tonight about some options that he's come up with. He's talking about o-ringing the engine, but from what I read, that's generally reserved for running 12+lbs of boost. I personally don't think it's important for _me_, but we'll see. He did mention that he's not a fan of creating compression by machining the heads, so that may be out. I've talked to Weasy2k and he doesn't have pistons ready, so those may remain stock. I won't put his long duration cams in it right now, those I can do myself later if I wanna play. Machined heads/block, pistons, rings, valves, full gasket set, probably main bearings... WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ ~ Mark '96 4Runner Limited S/C MI - 370cc injectors, Air! horns, Airaid MIT, ATS A-arms, 285/75/R16 BFG MTs, Bored TB, Brembo slotted, Cobra 75 WXST, Deckplate, Downey headers, Hayden cooler, IPT valve body, Level 10 torque convertor, Meanstreak exhaust, OME/OME rears, On-board PC (XM, Nav, WiFi, etc), Port 'n Polish, Remote Start, SAW fronts, Hilux console, SMT-5, Stubb's sliders, Supra MAF, TJM-17, 2.0" pulley, Viair 450c, Walbro 190, Weasy2k cams

12-09-2006, 10:47 AM	#4 (permalink)
GRNTACO Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: On a trail in WA. Posts: 1,439	You are definitely in good hands with DD and the crew he runs with. When you said "o-ringing the engine" is that like sleeving the cylinders? __________________ Ben

12-09-2006, 05:22 PM	#8 (permalink)
rimpainter.com Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,797	Dang Mark, we haven't "talked" in a while. Holy moley, when did this happen? So, based on the pics, my guess is that you lost compression in one of the cylinders due to detonation (and a chunk missing off of one of the intake valves), and tore it down to find out what happened? Yikes dude. So, how can I prevent this from happening to me? In other words, do you know exactly how this happened? Was it a bang! thing, or gradual over time? Lots of questions there, but you can basically answer by saying what happened, or what you speculate happened. Sorry dude! (I'll be up there next week/weekend. Maybe can try and grab that 2-years-in-the-making coffee if you have time). __________________ www.rimpainter.com Get your O Gasket Mod Here! My SC'd 4Runner's Profile My YouTube vids

12-09-2006, 05:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
*midiwall* Sponsoring Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seattleish, WA Posts: 9,078	Hey Christian! Well.. a few months ago I was driving along and (literally) BANG!... oh, wait... i started a thread when it happened: http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=92921 Yeah, this is why I haven't been around much. I haven't been in the mood to even think about having fun with the truck in months. "Why it happened" wise... dun't really know. There's definitely pitting on the #4 & #6 pistons (that head is from the drivers side) but there's no pitting in #2 where the valve is broken/burned. The pitting could have been there from 3 years ago when the S/C went on, or it could be more recent. The valve could have been burned from running lean, or it could have just been "time". As you look at that pic, keep in mind that's after an additional 3500 miles of driving _after_ the "BANG!" in August. So all the carbon, burned porcelain and such could have happpened after the fact. We just don't know. Once the block gets torn down we may have a better clue as to how much long-term abuse I'd put on it. __________________ ~ Mark '96 4Runner Limited S/C MI - 370cc injectors, Air! horns, Airaid MIT, ATS A-arms, 285/75/R16 BFG MTs, Bored TB, Brembo slotted, Cobra 75 WXST, Deckplate, Downey headers, Hayden cooler, IPT valve body, Level 10 torque convertor, Meanstreak exhaust, OME/OME rears, On-board PC (XM, Nav, WiFi, etc), Port 'n Polish, Remote Start, SAW fronts, Hilux console, SMT-5, Stubb's sliders, Supra MAF, TJM-17, 2.0" pulley, Viair 450c, Walbro 190, Weasy2k cams

12-10-2006, 02:10 PM	#15 (permalink)
ebelen1 Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Socal Posts: 1,964	Mark, Just curious and if you don't mind sharing, what is all that work gonna cost? For those that aren't s/c'd but may have many miles on a motor and are considering options, it would be interesting to know dollars versus other options. __________________ ____________ Edwin 1999 SR5 4unner

12-10-2006, 07:14 PM	#17 (permalink)
yota_krazy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 137	if you dont mind me asking, which machine shop are you using?

12-31-2006, 04:01 PM	#19 (permalink)
Yobroe Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Kent, WA Posts: 120	Is your truck done yet, and if so, what was the final cost for a rebuild? I have 184k right now and I have no power---just started happening last week, so it may be time for a rebuild myself. __________________ 1997 SR5 4runner, Downey rear springs, OME N86 shocks, Downey/Bilstein adjustable front coilovers, 285/75R16 Toyo M/Ts, 16x8 Weld Stone Crushers, RB 1" Diff drop, ARB Bull Bar, Deckplate mod, Alpine tilt face MP3 cd player, a couple amps, all Monster Cable-nothing stock left, MB Quarts, Boston Acoustic, Kicker, cb, etc. [img=http://thumb5.webshots.net/t/54/54/6/90/78/507169078vDNbqe_th.jpg]

12-31-2006, 04:49 PM	#20 (permalink)
89934runr Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 283	compression Mark- Even though he's not a fan of building compression by milling the heads, it might be required. If that is so- then get a piston with a lower compression height and or compression rating. The othe thing to consider is that milling the head changes valve timing events very slightly- not that it can't be compensated for. Some tricks are to use a fatter head gasket to compensate for the milling (same trick used to lower compression). At 163K, you might be asking a bit much on the metallurgy of the stock pistons, esp if you're making boost. I'd also look into better rods, as the stock 3.4 rods aren't the top of the heap. They'll do fine for a n/a DD, but if you're like me (sounds like it), you'll go for something a bit stronger. Pauter, Crower, Scat? My boost-built 3.4 will have a beefier bottom end by way of crank prep and much better rods, with custom pistons.

12-31-2006, 08:03 PM	#22 (permalink)
RidgeRunner Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fairview, OR Posts: 188	Hey Mark, Sorry to hear about your engine woes...Looks like you're going to come out of it real cool. As you know, we have the same truck so I'm going to try to learn from your experience. With only 113K and no blower I hopefully have some wiggle room. Keep us posted, guy. We're interested and feel for ya.:cry: Mick __________________ "There's a race of men that don't fit in, A race that can't stay still;" Robert Service '96 Limited, Desert Dune Pearl l With some "fun" stuff.

01-01-2007, 03:08 PM	#23 (permalink)
*midiwall* Sponsoring Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seattleish, WA Posts: 9,078	MICK! DOOD! Hey man! Like what's happenin'?! Thanks for popping in, and yeah, I hope this all flushes out okay. It'll be a bit stressful turning the key that first time, but I bet I'll get used it it fairly quick. __________________ ~ Mark '96 4Runner Limited S/C MI - 370cc injectors, Air! horns, Airaid MIT, ATS A-arms, 285/75/R16 BFG MTs, Bored TB, Brembo slotted, Cobra 75 WXST, Deckplate, Downey headers, Hayden cooler, IPT valve body, Level 10 torque convertor, Meanstreak exhaust, OME/OME rears, On-board PC (XM, Nav, WiFi, etc), Port 'n Polish, Remote Start, SAW fronts, Hilux console, SMT-5, Stubb's sliders, Supra MAF, TJM-17, 2.0" pulley, Viair 450c, Walbro 190, Weasy2k cams

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