Tps
10-04-2006, 06:21 AM
#21
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Grim Reaper bring up some VERY good points as well.....
Except one....
Did the pinging start before or AFTER the timing chain was replaced?
If it was before, follow Grim Reapers advice BEFORE you tear into the engine.
If it started AFTER you replaced the chain....
I think you know the dreaded answer.
Except one....
Did the pinging start before or AFTER the timing chain was replaced?
If it was before, follow Grim Reapers advice BEFORE you tear into the engine.
If it started AFTER you replaced the chain....
I think you know the dreaded answer.
10-04-2006, 06:37 AM
#22
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Grim Reaper bring up some VERY good points as well.....
Except one....
Did the pinging start before or AFTER the timing chain was replaced?
If it was before, follow Grim Reapers advice BEFORE you tear into the engine.
If it started AFTER you replaced the chain....
I think you know the dreaded answer.
Except one....
Did the pinging start before or AFTER the timing chain was replaced?
If it was before, follow Grim Reapers advice BEFORE you tear into the engine.
If it started AFTER you replaced the chain....
I think you know the dreaded answer.
For the record..the dot on the cam gear is just a little counter clockwise and not perfectly straight up when its lined up correctly. I have already chased my butt thinking mine had jumped a tooth when it wasn't perfectly straight up right after I bought the truck and chasing a run problem it had that turned out to be EGR issues.
Tim at DOA and Ted at Engine builder both told me they didn't think that was the problem when I was question my head being over decked throwing off valve timing. Tim talked me out of buying his adjustable cam gear over it.
Last edited by GrimReaper; 10-04-2006 at 06:43 AM.
10-04-2006, 07:16 PM
#23
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I can put it on 5* but it pings like hell, if i put it on 0TDC
Here is a couple questions I have.
No i havent it seemed to be working fine, i did do the AFM mod and made it 1 click richer tho
Yes
Yes
No how do u check it?
I have a new OEM on it
The basics are this... The AFM controls most of it. The TPS just lets the ECM know how far you are pushing the peddled. The amount the door is open in the AFM controls the fuel supply. The truck will run and drive with the TPS unplugged. It just makes it sluggish and creates idle problems.
Under hard throttle or deceleration the EGR closes. EGR opens around 1800 rpm with steady cruise
Truck runs in open loop till it achieves a steady cruise
Ping can be many things.
timming
fuel
compression
If you are hearing this at steady cruise slight throttle I would really start checking the EGR and O2.
What happens is when you achieve a steady cruise is the ECM leans out the fuel mixture when the engine goes into a closed loop mode (reads the o2 sensor). This is done for economy and emissions reasons. Once the mixture leans the combustion temp starts to raise and you can start to get detonation (ignition without spark or spark knock or ping...what ever you want to call it). The EGR introduces exhaust into the intake to dilute the mixture (removing some of the oxygen to get back to a stoic fuel mixture of 14:1 as read by the O2) and lower the combustion temps and prevent detonation.
Now the thing that troubles me is this...the motor has a knock sensor that should dump timing if thats the problem. I really don't think you have a problem with valve timing. If it was off a tooth it would really run like crap. I also don't think you have the distributor off a tooth either. I don't think there is enough adjustment to overcome being off a tooth and get back to 5*BTDC So I would start checking other problems and possible causes.
There is precedence for harness problems with the Knock sensor circuit on most 80's and early 90's Toyota's with this style FI. I would find a wiring diagram and meter out this connections between the sensor and ECM. The Boosted Supra crowd I use to hang with ran into that problem often.
Hope that gives you some ideas on what to check. I don't come to this forum often but I will try to keep an eye on your thread to see what the outcome is. Hit me on Pirate (same nick) if you have any questions and I am not responding here.
Thanks for this very informative post, i do have a few things to look at now, i also took the valve cover offand checked to se if the dot was around 11:30 to 11:45 and it was and chain was tight on drivers side
Last edited by MAXIMUS1968; 10-04-2006 at 07:19 PM.
10-05-2006, 05:06 AM
#24
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With all the plugs being the same color then thats a good sign its not an individual injector going lean. It also rules out a O2 problem because it is not going to be closed look under full acceleration. Same with EGR.
Bypass the fuel pressure VSV. They are bad about giving it up and not functioning. Run the pressure regulator straight off the manifold vacuum.
You have a K&N?
They are bad about oiling down the Ambient air temp sensor in the AFM (the nub in the top). Clean that with some contact cleaner and becarefull not to get the cleaner int the rest of the workings of the AFM.
I think Rodger has the AFM tests on his 4crawler site.
This link has the AFM info in it. Mike is who most people are quoting when they tell you to adjust the AFM. He did a lot of playing around with it on a amped up Mr2 he had. This link has some of that info in it.
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=15103.0
The original post he had up on a different site and I can't seem to find a link to it.
He also has a post where he going into depth how the system works. I can't remember the title to narrow down the search.
Mike is also the guy that pretty well wrote the book on the 3RZ swap.
Bypass the fuel pressure VSV. They are bad about giving it up and not functioning. Run the pressure regulator straight off the manifold vacuum.
You have a K&N?
They are bad about oiling down the Ambient air temp sensor in the AFM (the nub in the top). Clean that with some contact cleaner and becarefull not to get the cleaner int the rest of the workings of the AFM.
I think Rodger has the AFM tests on his 4crawler site.
This link has the AFM info in it. Mike is who most people are quoting when they tell you to adjust the AFM. He did a lot of playing around with it on a amped up Mr2 he had. This link has some of that info in it.
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=15103.0
The original post he had up on a different site and I can't seem to find a link to it.
He also has a post where he going into depth how the system works. I can't remember the title to narrow down the search.
Mike is also the guy that pretty well wrote the book on the 3RZ swap.
11-19-2006, 05:25 PM
#25
Where is this info listed"10-19 ohms"? I was going crazy trying to get zero ohms from my 22re tps, idl and E2 pins. Do you know when it says less than 2300 Ohms for another reading is 175 ohms ok or should it read higher? Thanks, Pete
11-20-2006, 08:16 AM
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Think of the E2 to IDL measurement as a switch.
open = signal to ECU that Throttle is NOT in fully returned to idle position
closed = signal to ECU that Throttle is correctly in the fully returned position.
The above is what is supposed to happen. If the TPS is not positioned correctly, the fully returned position can signal the ECU that the throttle is still not at idle, so the ECU will force the RPM"s to 500.
11-20-2006, 12:16 PM
#28
10-19 ohms is what I have on two different TPS's (Idl-E2). Note that the FSM says "no-continuity" or continuity. This means an open or closed circuit. The 10-19 ohms is contact resistance when the TPS is "closed". Note which scale you are on when you make the measurement. On a 1kohm scale, that 19ohms will read 0.019k.
Think of the E2 to IDL measurement as a switch.
open = signal to ECU that Throttle is NOT in fully returned to idle position
closed = signal to ECU that Throttle is correctly in the fully returned position.
The above is what is supposed to happen. If the TPS is not positioned correctly, the fully returned position can signal the ECU that the throttle is still not at idle, so the ECU will force the RPM"s to 500.
Think of the E2 to IDL measurement as a switch.
open = signal to ECU that Throttle is NOT in fully returned to idle position
closed = signal to ECU that Throttle is correctly in the fully returned position.
The above is what is supposed to happen. If the TPS is not positioned correctly, the fully returned position can signal the ECU that the throttle is still not at idle, so the ECU will force the RPM"s to 500.
Maybe volts testing is more exact?
Last edited by pcmentor; 11-20-2006 at 12:25 PM.
11-20-2006, 01:57 PM
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Voltage
Ohms is the easiest to check. Not sure why you are having problems making the measurements.
As to voltage, that circuit diagram is good, you can see the switch, and the proportional circuit. However the voltages are screwy, as there should be two cases for each circuit.
Not to mention, measuring voltage is more difficult in this case, as you have to have the connector plugged in.
As to whether 16ohms will trip your continuity check, depends on the continuity checker... my ohmeter has a continuity check which does show a short. Ohm reading is 18.9ohms. Whether the light type will, not sure.
You should be able to use your ohmeter to make the check. Short the leads together and note the ohm reading. Then put the E2-Idl in the circuit. It should be around 19 ohms + any offeset from the leads-together case (if you don't have a way to zero the meter, do it that way). As you turn the TPS it should jump to an open case.
As to voltage, that circuit diagram is good, you can see the switch, and the proportional circuit. However the voltages are screwy, as there should be two cases for each circuit.
Not to mention, measuring voltage is more difficult in this case, as you have to have the connector plugged in.
As to whether 16ohms will trip your continuity check, depends on the continuity checker... my ohmeter has a continuity check which does show a short. Ohm reading is 18.9ohms. Whether the light type will, not sure.
You should be able to use your ohmeter to make the check. Short the leads together and note the ohm reading. Then put the E2-Idl in the circuit. It should be around 19 ohms + any offeset from the leads-together case (if you don't have a way to zero the meter, do it that way). As you turn the TPS it should jump to an open case.
11-20-2006, 03:10 PM
#30
Ohms is the easiest to check. Not sure why you are having problems making the measurements.
As to voltage, that circuit diagram is good, you can see the switch, and the proportional circuit. However the voltages are screwy, as there should be two cases for each circuit.
Not to mention, measuring voltage is more difficult in this case, as you have to have the connector plugged in.
As to whether 16ohms will trip your continuity check, depends on the continuity checker... my ohmeter has a continuity check which does show a short. Ohm reading is 18.9ohms. Whether the light type will, not sure.
You should be able to use your ohmeter to make the check. Short the leads together and note the ohm reading. Then put the E2-Idl in the circuit. It should be around 19 ohms + any offeset from the leads-together case (if you don't have a way to zero the meter, do it that way). As you turn the TPS it should jump to an open case.
As to voltage, that circuit diagram is good, you can see the switch, and the proportional circuit. However the voltages are screwy, as there should be two cases for each circuit.
Not to mention, measuring voltage is more difficult in this case, as you have to have the connector plugged in.
As to whether 16ohms will trip your continuity check, depends on the continuity checker... my ohmeter has a continuity check which does show a short. Ohm reading is 18.9ohms. Whether the light type will, not sure.
You should be able to use your ohmeter to make the check. Short the leads together and note the ohm reading. Then put the E2-Idl in the circuit. It should be around 19 ohms + any offeset from the leads-together case (if you don't have a way to zero the meter, do it that way). As you turn the TPS it should jump to an open case.
11-20-2006, 03:55 PM
#31
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Thanks, so your idle is fine when the you get the 19 ohm reading, right? I wonder if my air idle screw passages are plugged a little. Why the IDl-E2 doesn't go to zero? I guess it's not important. Effectively 19 ohms equals zero, right? Thanks for your quick replies. Pete
Anyway, the TPS can be misadjusted (assuming it is a good TPS, which it probably is) such that it doesn't read the short case when the throttle is in the closed position. This is the most common case. What the ECU does is to try to lower the rpms on its on, with a 500rpm target if all else is correct.
The other possibility is that the TPS is adjusted to show idle even when the throttle is opened a bit. This is less common, but still possible.
It is tricky to get your probes in to make the measurement. Which is why I bought a cheap one on ebay to understand how it works.
The other measurement the ECU has at its disposal, is the proportional reading between VTA? if memory serves, and E2. That one tells the ECU the angular displacement of the throttle which is uses to decide (for instance) when you reach 3k rpm. The design guy nicely set the displacement to be close to 1ohm per rpm. So at 800 rpm idle, you will read about 800ohms on those terminals. Not sure if the 22rec uses that, but the circuit is there, so I am prettty sure it does use it. I have both engines, the circuit is very similar for both TPS's.
Once you get it set correctly, you may need to readjust the idle screw on the TB. In most cases it will idle faster after you correctly adjust the TPS.
Btw, while not "recommended", you can set the dang thing while the engine is on. If you loosen the TPS just enough such that it stays put but allow you to change position, you will see the effect of the "switch". You want it to just be at the shorted case when the throttle is physically in the idle position. Make sure the throttle is at the fully closed position, and not held out a bit by the dashpot. The lower rpm case will be the open position on the TPS, and the higher, the shorted case. Counterintuitive, but that is the way the ECU responds. I could take an educated guess as to why, but its not important. Something to do with the logic that, hey, you should be at idle now, but you are not, so I'm (the ecu) going to shut you down below normal idle so you won't "pollute" the universe. Bureacrats at work.
Also, if your engine runs better with TPS disconnected (although it will throw a code), that is another clue that your TPS was misadjusted or not working correctly.
One guy in Poland, where they don't have the TPS requirement, just left his off, as they don't have the requirement of trying to keep your rpms down at idle. His ECU was not the same as ours, and didn't throw a code.
11-20-2006, 05:20 PM
#32
Somehow after I checked the voltage or after I fooled with the TPS my IDLE is up at 750 on the dash tach! in Park. and doesn't drop below 550 when in drive which is perfect! Actual tach readings are much higher. The tach I bought is a POS. Now if it stays that way I can start fiddling with the motorhome Furnace in back. It's a Toyota Motorhome. Thanks, Pete
Thanks for the detailed explanation of the IDL-E2 tracks, Some manuals use the term continuity too loosely I think. They should say relative continuity. Or Relatively Continuous or appx 19 ohms or something.
Thanks
Thanks for the detailed explanation of the IDL-E2 tracks, Some manuals use the term continuity too loosely I think. They should say relative continuity. Or Relatively Continuous or appx 19 ohms or something.
Thanks
Last edited by pcmentor; 11-20-2006 at 05:27 PM.
11-21-2006, 05:31 AM
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What if Your Throttle Stop Screw is'nt EXACTLY where it is Supposed to be? Where is it Supposed to Be? The Manual Says to Use Feeler Guages in Between the Throttle Stop Screw and the Lever to set the Ohms. If your Throttle Stop is Out of Adjustment the TPS Will be out of Adjustment. I Could see People Compensatating with the Idle Adjust Screw For a Out of Adjustment Throttle Stop Screw.
11-22-2006, 09:04 AM
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TPS Adjustment
I have found that the easiest way to adjust the TPS, is to go to the salvage yard and pick up a TPS pigtail from the engine of your choice, cut it from the wiring loom, that way all you have to do is hook clips onto the wires of the pigtail, instead of trying to get clips to stay in place on the TPS.
One note, when you go to cut the pigtail, pull it out of the loom as far as you can, so you can get as much wire as possible when you cut it off.
RBMC
One note, when you go to cut the pigtail, pull it out of the loom as far as you can, so you can get as much wire as possible when you cut it off.
RBMC
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