Barnstormer

So, i've been reading a lot of stuff online about running ethanol blends in "non-converted" vehicles.
I've decided to give running some ethanol a try. Now, I've heard a ton of pros and cons about it all, and if you want to flame about land use, corn prices and such, go start another thread and do it there.
This is gonna be about how it works in non-converted vehicles.

So, here's the backstory. My 88 xtracab PU has 235k miles on it. I'm in the process of building a new engine for it, so I figured I'd give the E85 thing a try, and if it killed the engine somehow, no biggie, I'm gonna replace it anyway.

Here in Northern Colorado, E85 is cheap. (1.99/gal.) With 85 octane unleaded gasoline costing about 2.99/gal, if I can run this stuff (in any mix) and not lose more than 33% in fuel economy, I'm coming out ahead, cost wise.

I read this study http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...finds-cer.html , which says that unconverted cars can get better mpg's running on a blend of E20 or E30, without other drawbacks. So, today I went down to my local station and put 5.5 gals of E85 into my tank (filling it), to create an E33 mix (or close, anyway) in my tank. I only drove a few miles home, but the truck seemed to run completely normally.
So far, I have done nothing to change my truck from the normal settings.

Now, E85 has an octane rating of between 100-105, so my E33 mix (with 85 octane unleaded) is about 90 octane now. Timing adjustments to maximize the benefits from 90 octane fuel may come later.

I figure I might slowly increase the ethanol % a little at a time, and see what happens. The reading I have done indicates that many cars can run up to E60 to E70 with no real drawbacks, with some people able to run straight E85.
I know about the potential drop in MPGs and performance, but this is mostly just an experiment to see if it will work, and if there can be any benefits in overall operating cost, performance, etc.....time will tell.
I read the posts of a guy over on pirate, saying he runs straight E85 in his 22re (in a 91, I think). We'll see if I can replicate his results.

More to come, when there is more to tell!

B

Targetnut

definitely keep us posted

PoleVaulter95

i heard that ethanol is more corrisive (sp) and the only "converted" parts are corrision resisting parts in place such as fuel lines fact or fiction?

Barnstormer

Yes, ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline, but really only when exposed to water at the same time. What I've read so far indicates that especially at the concentrations I am running now (33%) it won't be an issue. Most pump gas has 10% ethanol anyway, so since the 80's sometime (apparently) cars have been fine for at least some ethanol.
It seems that its the rubber parts that are at the most risk. Again, time will tell if there is gonna be a problem.
B

texhall

I'm not so sure about the replacement parts being just corrosive resistant. Now I'm not sure about the older toy's but I have had a rash of newer toy's in the shop with the e85 "problem". Every one has had issues of running poorly, idling rough, lean codes, and at times losing so much power that the owner thinks it has gone into limp home mode. Sure enough hook up the scan tool and you can find the fuels trims way out of wack. 29-30% and up. It just runs so lean that the computer opens the injectors up as much as possible and still can't over come the lean mix. Drain the tank and fuel rail and pump the lines clean. add gas and fire up. Now those are pretty close to full tanks of e85

I am interested in what percentage you can get to before it starts to run funny.
Please post the results!

I am also interested in seeing if the e85 mixes properly with the fuel. we had a tech drain the tank but not get it clean. There was some fuel left in the bottom of it that he didn't get. when it got sucked in to the pick up , bam lean code. no running issues just mil on. he didn't test the fuel though so
were not positive it was e85. thats why i asked.

Also on another note.

I have been told by a toyota engineer that it will not harm the components.
will just run bad till its gone and the programming gets back to normal

Hayes

My buddy did a whole E85 conversion. Really all you need to run complete E85 is a good high pressure fuel pump and a way to tune the a/f. He ran his engine until it was almost empty and filled it with E85 and drove to a shop to tune it, ran it almost to empty and then had it tuned again - on a dyno.

He uses a Greddy AFCII to adjust the A/F ratio. His fuel mileage went down but he gained a considerable amount of power without any real modifications.

RC000E

Like I stated in the other thread, having tuned several high hp E85 converted vehicles, if you think you can just stick E85 in your tank and go, then you've got wool over your eyes. The only thing your doing is creating dangerously lean conditions, high EGT's, tremendous stress on your ringlands, and despite what your butt dyno says, losing power.

Initially before alot of us tuned E85, the octane number made alot of us believe that you'd really be able to lay on the timing, similar to a race gas, but what we found was almost the opposite. While E85 may offer some ability to increase timing, ethanol is more volatile that gasoline, so MBT (minimum spark advance for best torque) is achieved with very similar timing to gasoline maps.

This is not something you can just pump in and toy with. Just because your motor runs, and you claim not to care about engine damage, your slowly convincing people here that you can just pump it in. Just because you don't hear detonation, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Unless you have a det can, can see a torque curve, or have some knock detection equipment, it's going to be hard to determine when really bad things start happening.

Simply stated, if you want E85, then get a fuel controller, or full standalone, upgrade the fuel system to support it, then get it professionally tuned. Otherwise, stick to gasoline if you know what's best for you.

This is what I do for a living, so take my advice or leave it, but I'm giving you real world information, not butt dyno's and what I've read around the internet.

strykersd

I remember hearing somwhere that you need %33 more ethanol then gasoline for any given engine. So to match %100 gasoline you'd need 133% of that amount in ethanol. What size injectors do the 22re's come with? I know some guys who did this in their hondas, but luckily hondas come with 240cc injectors so all they had to do was throw in a set of 310cc injectors and it was almost dead on. Having to pump more fuel at all times means less range you could trave on a tank, something to consider if you travel a lot.

The only reason I'd convert to E85 is if I built a high compression race motor, it can stand up to much higher compression then normal pump gas. I've haerd it's on par with 105octane gas. This allows a racecar to be daily driven without race gas.

One rumor I heard about why E85 is so cheap is that the government cuts the taxes or something like that in hopes that people convert to E85 to help our dependence on gasoline. It's nice for now, but what happens when the government starts treating it like normal gasoline. $?

Good luck with you project

Tylerars24

dang, we don't have E85 here in maine yet.

sounds pretty sweet.

please, do keep us posted

Dirt Driver

One big problem with E85 as a high performance fuel is that you can't be sure what the exact percentage is. Currently it is batch mixed when the transport trucks are filled. That's not a big deal; the problem is that E-"85" can legally have anywhere between 70 and 85% ethanol based on season, region, etc. Set the tune on "kill" for E85, wind up E70, and the only thing killed is the engine. A handful of people on turbomustangs.com are over the 1000rwhp mark on it. Rumor has it that Rocket race fuels is going to offer a reliable 85% concentration for competition.

As for tuning, I find it unlikely that a gasoline engine would run right when fed straight E85. The stoich AFR for ethanol is ~9:1 whereas gasoline is 14.7. Most OEM ECUs are not programmed with enough authority to adjust that much.

Here in CA there is one public E85 station and it's 4 hours away. The other is also 4hrs away and is private/military.

89macrunner

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMvmyW44p-Y[/YOUTUBE]

Konieggsegg CCX-R

has 1018hp and runs on e85 pump gas


its crazy fast..they crashed one on top gear

gametom

man e85 is cheap up there i'm in northern il and it's a dime a gal cheaper than gas so it's just a wist in a dd

kyle450rider

You should also note that E85 does not yield the same amount of energy as gasoline. You will not get the same mileage.

dcg9381

Speaking from experience, you can practically add E85 to your current setup. I wouldn't go beyond about 75% gas and 25% E85, as you will run lean at WOT and idle.

E85 can handle a much leaner mixture than gas for some reason, it's much more bad-tune friendly..

Good for the motor? No. More power without supporting mods (high compression/more timing)? No.

You can patch it via more fuel pressure, increased injector size, and a few companies are offering "black boxes" that increase pulsewidth by about 25%.

Mileage will drop, but the fuel is cheaper. Will it work out to be cost effective? Depends on the cost in your area.

If you really want to run E85 all the time, custom tune.. The guys that are picking up power from the octane and increased exhaust flow are typically turbo'd...

Kaydon

I spoke with a pal of mine going into biofuel engineering at Clemson and he simply said don't do it.

langzaiguy

I agree with what RC000E was say'n. That being said, I think your experiment is so cool. I'm really interested as to what you find out--not that I would ever put E85 in my truck.

I have head that it settles or it doesn't mix that great. I've heard of people in other countries jumping on their back bumpers in the mornings to mix their tanks.

jason191918

http://www.psfc.mit.edu/library1/cat...ja002_full.pdf

Do this. It would be badass.

nate V

Just out of curiosity what exactly is needed to change over a gas truck to an E85 truck. Wat components are needed to be replaced or removed or added to make it work. No one around where i live does this kinda thing and have not had the luxury of seeing it with my own two eyes.
RC000E you seem to have a pretty good handle on it with some experience behind you can you shed any light on this for me.

Dirt Driver

You need a way to accurately increase the fueling by about 30% and that usually involves getting into the ECU and changing code or going with a standalone. The flex fuel GMs have fuel sensor that tells the ECU how much ethanol is in the fuel(needed in order to compensate for E85, E70, or a mix of gas and E85). Domestic cars, Hondas, and Nissans have many chip and programmer options available, but I'm not sure anyone has developed one for the Toyota pickups. I think MegaSquirt can utilize the GM's fuel sensor now.

That's the tedious professional method, anyway. You can play with fuel pressure and get more static injector flow to compensate for the richer AFR, but it won't yield the best results.

Kaydon

You may be better off running propane?