drew303

Bit of a mystery goin on. So I'm doin disc brakes probably this coming weekend. I'll finally have functioning rear brakes again.

But in the interm I've beend trying to get my rear drums somewhat tolerable. With them adjusted properly (LSPV in right place) when you brake its as if you're attached to a bunji coord I swear. The drums are warped bad.. stuck adjusters, mud, water.. and rocks have just destroyed year old brakes.

Anyway, last week when I got pissed and tore into them again to just see if there was something I was missing that would get rid of the ratchety noise...

well nope but I did notice my drivers side axle has some in-out play.. these are year old axles on year n half old bearings. I'm thinking, oh great more $ down the crapper. So I pulled the axle to see the condition of the bearing.. Perfect.. spins freely without grinding or any kind of contimination. Dif oil is like new.. Alls well, phew...

So I dig through the FSM looking for some kind of tech on in-out axle tolerance (play).. ok so theres nothing. ugh... ok so I decide to check the other side (pass side). It's snug as a bug. The play on the driver side rear is very minimal but its there.. I can feel it and thats unnerving for me. I want this stuff to work perfect, period and especially considering how expensive bearings and axles are AND new brake hardware... Ok so im over the brakes (disc yay!)

The FSM says to check the bearing case for wear but doesnt specify any tolerances or what kind of wear.. just that if its worn to replace.... Ok so i CANT get my bearings off at home, I dont have the $200 SST (yea the jig is $200)... to unpress. I can press em on with my press but i cant take them off. So I cant check the bearing case for wear, from home.


*****

I got on the phone with my local trusted mechanic (40yrs of workn on yoters) and he's never steered the family wrong and usually has saved us buckets of $... He couldnt quite grasp what I was trying to explain to him on the phone about the bearing case and in out play, his tech that does this couldnt quite get what i was saying either, lol... Ok so they've NEVER replaced a bearing case... I'm always good for being a first for something (wish it was lotto)... Anyway i got two new bearing cases in from toyota $52 each... stopped by today, he gets what im saying but doesnt think the lil play is something to worry about, said most of toyotas have some play .. BUT


he said i should bring it in and have his tech look at it if i want because one side is "snug as a bug" and the other isnt hehe..


ANYONE have any input to add here? I mean, theres a lip in the bearing case on the underside of the bearing (if your looking at a pressed in axle, the side of the bearing you cant see) ... I can see if that lip which is obviously what the upper race of the bearing rides on (horizontally) is worn there would be space in the bearing case FOR the bearing to slide horizontaly (axle in out play)...

BUT... considering he's never replaced one I'm wondering if this is just incredibly rare or in out play is just normal....

drew303

Just remembered something thats possibly important

I replaced the bearings a year and a half ago.. The olds were shot. I had rear wheel wobble.. culprit, well maybe wheel bearings. (i wasnt exactly a tech on toyota rear axles then heh)... 4 months later I figured out the differential case was shot (worn out) .. major inner axle play... in other words the axles moved around in the differential (anywhere in the 360 rotation they had like 1/8" -> 1/4" of play!!!) ... major axle warpage and serious flange runout.

Replaced rear axles with marlins alloy usa chromoly, Detroit Truetrac and reused the 4 month old bearings.. Did not notice the in out play then but i cant remember if i even checked for it.

the pivoting action on the old bearings and the 4 months on the new could IN my mind worn out the bearing case. pivoting action directly translates into horizontal motion ..would of put more than normal pressure on the outer race of the bearing and the sides of the bearing case...

eh?

tc

That pressed on bearing is the only thing holding the axle in (well, OK, there's a small snapring). It sounds to me like what you describe in the second post, and that you're looking at a bearing/seal replacement at least on the one side...

MudHippy

I've tore apart and put back together mine rear axle a couple times now including the bearings off the axleshaft. I didn't remember noticing the play in/out like your sayin'. So I just went out and jacked it up an inch and checked. Hmmm, interesting. I found my driver's side has slight play in/out, and the passenger side has none.

Making sure we're on the same page as to why, do you mean the thing that the bearing is pressed into by bearing case, the thing that also keeps the axle bolted to the housing? It's out of shape and not holding the bearing in the correct position?

4bytruckin

i got my bearing out with a vice a 2x4 and an hour with a 2lb sledge. went back same way. no movement at all

Itoyota

currently getting a new bearing pressed into my drivers side axle shaft. The OEM backing plate/bearing housing was warped and bent thanks to Minnesota rust and a little fun off road. Got a replacement from a clean Cali truck w/no rust. Hoping when i get it back on to have no problems. Machinist is taking forever.
About the play you are speaking of, i don't think i have had that problem, and hope to not encounter it after the new bearing install. But iff the play your speaking of is not wheel wobble perpendicular to normal direction of travel, are you saying the WHOLE axle shaft is pulling straight out away from the flange and it's mounting points as one peice? I know trivial, but is it possible that you have an issue with your axle flange bolt/nut combinations. Maybe lossening due to vibration, threaded ????

Itoyota

On second thought, I just spoke with a very experienced mechanic who told me that most of our type axle setups allow for a minute amount of free play. As long as it is not a mistaken wheel wobble due to bearing damage.

And, apologize for hi-jacking your thread, but do your axle flange eyes, where the bolts pass through from the axle shaft asssembly, sit true to one another? I am afraid mine are slightly bent so i put a straight edge up to them and found that no two eyes sit true to one another. :0: <flange eyes are : looking at the axle where 0 is the axle housing and point of entry for the axle shaft.

MudHippy

It isn't my thread either, but I checked my bolts and they seem to be tight. And it's not a detectable wobble, but if you pull straight out on my wheel it feels like it's got about 1/32-1/16" of play, I don't think I'm likin' it now either. I'm not sure mine isn't bearing wear, but I'm curious now whether or not it could be the bearing case/backing plate/bearing housing thing. Great, more trial and error for me!

-EDIT-

Thanks, Itoyota, I'm becoming less concerned. I haven't noticed anything in the way it drives anyway, so "if it ain't broke...".

drew303

I took some pictures of the new bearing cases to help clear up any confusion.

The "bearing case" part # 42421-35030 (box says "CASE") is separate from the backing plate. The backing plate goes ONTO the bearing case then 4 STUDS are installed and that holds the backing plate to the bearing case.

next heres a bearing case: (and outer axle oil seal, parts store calls it a rear wheel seal)


I have no up/down or side to side movement in my axles. They run perfectly true. Zero runout... There IS specifications in the FSM for axle runout, both warpage of the axle shaft and the axle flange. I have zero runout either way on these new axles. STOCK axles are prone to excess runout over time which leads to wheel wobble and excessive pressures on the differential and bearing.. and I'd imagine the bearing case as well [point of the thread! hehe]. I had extreme runout, my differential on the driver side was worn. You could rock the tire (hand ontop of tire, other on bottom and tilt forward out etc).. not in/out play.. rocking play.. in any direction. Thats what you get from a worn differential. NOT a worn wheel bearing. Which is noticeable by brake 'warped rotor' feeling (pulsation in the peadle) and wheel wobble if you view the tire spinning from behind etc...

When the dif casing goes imagine it this way.. take the differential out and just stick your axles in there and iamgine driving it down the road with no guideance on the splined side of the axle... They would violently rattle around in the axle housing.

I replaced my wheel bearings before figuring out it wasn't the bearings that were the culprit of the wheel wobble it was a worn differential case. (The side spider gears in the stock differential are machined to a female flange that the axle slides into thats splined.. its surrounded by bearings they wear out and the flange begins to have up/down side to side movement, obviously gets worse over time, exactly the same as a worn wheel bearing, they both carry the SAME load.. actually cant say the SAME, I would actually imagine the differential carries a tad bit more of the burden because of the leverage effect of the axle shaft)...anyway... my opinion, cant back that up with any factual mathematicl physics proof =p then maybe not as the wheel bearing might act as a decent vice cutting the pressure on the far end of the axle shaft..anyway not important..


My theory is .... The bearing case OR the axle housing are worn.. Theres a machined lip on the axle housing that goes INSIDE the bearing case. around this lip sits a big fat O-Ring that is the inner oil seal. The lip on the axle housing fits INSIDE the bearing case and fits snug up against the bearing.. it sandwiches the bearing between the axle housing and the bearing case... MAKING A BEARING CASE SANDWICH =P ... If the bearing case is worn I'm wondering if the axle housing might show the same wear. ... probably getting ahead of myself since i cant prove my bearing case is even worn yet.... but regardless ..if the axle housing is worn.. that would plain suck!

heres a shot of the bearing case inner:


That lip in there is the same width as the machined lip on the AXLE housing that touches the opposite side of the bearing. Which is about the same width as the outer race of a wheel bearing. I would imagine that lip in the bearing case is there to keep metal from contacting the rubber seal on the wheel bearing and to provide space for oil and grease to travel outside the bearing. ... makes sens to me, the lip touches the metal of the bearing, the space it creates is exactly where the rubber of the bearing is. ...anyhoo

I didnt notice any wear on the axle housing when i had the axles out but I'm not sure what it would look like anyways.

It's possible that inner lip in my bearing case is worn down flush.. The height of the lip for me, seems about right for the amount of play in/out im getting. 1/32" -> 1/16" possibly, that lip looks about 1/32" just guestimating.

And im wondering if its any coincidence that this play is on the same side, same bearing case that took the abuse of the worn out differential case. The two pieces of hardware are made out of the same material

Last but not least, heres a shot and some photoshopping i did to give you all an idea of how this case lines up with an axle. And to give you a visual of the effect of what action happens when the differential is worn out. That movement on the bearing would put unusual stress on the bearing case. Anyone agree? *That arrow doesnt represent spinning motion, it represents up/down and side/side motion... in other words motion perpendicular to the axle in any 360 deg direction*

drew303

And no the in/out play isnt from loose bearing case nuts. But pointing out the obvious is ALWAYS appreciated. Im serious. after i last messed with these axles I spent 35 minutes trying to bleed my brakes only to finally figure out the BRAND NEW SPEED BLEEDER i installed was FAULTY... the end of it WASNT EVEN DRILLED OUT!... $6 metal brake bleeder PLUG!... Summit shipped out two new ones FREE that night.. woohoo

anyhoo =p

drew303

Yet another theory to explain POSSIBLE bearing case damage/wear.

The FSM is unclear as to how much pressure is REALLY required to be able to sit a wheel bearing IN the bearing case. When you press the bearings on according the FSM you are first suppost to PUT the bearing in the bearing case then slide the axle through, slide on the retainer and press it all together...

IN the FSM tho it shows a SST to drive the wheel bearing INTO the bearing case.

I can easily move the axle in/out (when the axle is NOT on the truck) in the bearing case. With the axle flange sitting like this: .. well I can move the bearing case/backing palte up in down while the axle is fixed on the ground... :


I can easily move the bearing case up and down (only like 3/8-1/2") quite easily. I know that the reason this movement is possible is NORMAL, I'm not sure if it should be EASY for the bearing to move so easily within the case tho.

If the bearing can slide easily in the case (the movement has nothing to do with how far the bearing is pressed onto the axle, you're simply compressing the outer oil seal with this movement)... what im saying is how easily should the bearing move within the case. Kinda difficult to explain.

I'm thinking if the bearing can easily be moved in the case then this might translate into the outer race of the bearing .. might move more than it should within the case... which would be metal on metal friction/contact... metal sliding on metal = wear.

If the sides of the outer race of the wheel bearing slide on the the lip of the axle housing and bearing case, couldnt this translate into wear over time?

The inner race of the wheel bearing is suppost to to spin with the axle.. the bearings separating the inner race with the outer race (outer race is suppost to be fixed to the AXLE HOUSING, or truck, or non spinning anything) In our case the outer race is afixed to the bearing case which is affixed axle housing and so on... The bearings between the two races are suppost to take all the abuse...

I would think neither race is suppost to slide or move on the surface they're guiding.

Kinda like a clutch... If a clutch is slipping, its going to start deteriorating rapidly. The friction required to keep the clutch mated to the flywheel is gone then it begins to slip... If the compression of the bearing case on the axle bearing is gone then I would imagine the bearing would begin to move within the case with the cintrifiugal force of the axle spinning.

hope that made any sense LOL

Corbit

Hey Drew , I still have the axel out of the 88 ( V6 ) if you need.

drew303

haha thanks corbit

but i actually already have the the two new bearing cases and I wont need backing plates after this weekend ..doin disc brakes

I decided whilst I was planning to get yours that I'm done with drums and doin disc.

*ive dumped enough $ into drums.. they eat it like it grows on trees it'd be foolish to spend anymore on a flawed design

MudHippy

I totally get it now. Sounds like a good plan of attack to me.

I'm DEFINETELY not liking the amount of in/out play on my driver's side, so it's my bearing or the case. Thanks for inadvertently bringing that to my attention, seriously. I'll start with some new bearings as I have no idea how old these are (junkyard axle). If I need new cases then I'll know for sure. And I've got no side-side play or runout I can detect by feel or eye on either axle so I know my carrier bearings are good.

Well, that was fun. Ended up my brakes needed adjusted anyway, so I took care of that when I was down there. Anybody ever actually got the self-adjusting component to work for an extended period of time? Worthless peice of....

drew303

Nope.. lol

disc brakes for the win..soon

GSGALLANT

Drew,

As for your question of how easily the outer diameter of the bearing should slide into the bearing case, I had to use slight hammer taps to install the bearing into my case, but once it was in position, I could rotate the whole bearing OD in the case by hand.

The bearing OD will not rotate in the case (due to friction) with the weight of the vehicle on the bearing. When you get the axle installed, and put the weight of the vehicle back on the wheels, you'll only get rotation of the bearing at the balls (path of least resistance).

drew303

Thats what I figured, or atleast thats how it should work hehe. I can't remember how much force was needed to get my bearings into the old cases a year ago when i put new axles in. Just can't remember...

I'll run this stuff by my mechanic next week when his toyota guy comes back from his long weekend =) and ill let yall know how that goes.

like to get my disc brakes on this weekend.. I'm a lil embarassed by how the drivers side backing plate looks. I used the slam the axle on the ground method to get my bearings out a year ago since I didn't care about the stock axles but one side just wouldnt come off easily... after an hour of slamming it i got really really angry and beat the crap out of it pretty bad lol... learned my lesson, WALK AWAY and COME BACK LATER hehe...

anyway.. lol

toyota_mdt_tech

If you have in/out play, its a worn wheel bearing.

drew303

the bearing is only a year and a half old. Why would it be worn out? not saying it isnt or cant be but that just seems so unusual.

drew303

Theres no grinding or any hesitation in the bearings... no wear on the visible races.. and they spin like hot corn on soft butter...

the originals i replaced were not smooth, and were pretty bad lookn heh.